{"message_id":7043559,"content":"\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EFeb 27, 2011   8:53pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003EWell I\u0026#8217;m sure you can make a better argument without first begging the question. Explain why this is a problem first. Then I will answer.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EFeb 28, 2011   4:02am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003EIt\u0026#8217;s not very nice to the good people.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EOr if it is a nice thing to do for some reason, then it\u0026#8217;s not very nice to keep good people alive on Earth where they suffer.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EFeb 28, 2011   2:29pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EFirst it should be said that the sufferings and injustices of nature are only so bad under the presumption that this life is all there is. I just want to make sure that you\u0026#8217;re coming from a fair\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EFirst it should be said that the sufferings and injustices of nature are only so bad under the presumption that this life is all there is. I just want to make sure that you\u0026#8217;re coming from a fair perspective.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ENow there are many different ways to approach this question. Firstly, this is an objection to a perfect and loved creation (and therefore a perfect and loving creator). But traditional Christian doctrine holds that the Earth \u003Cspan\u003EWAS\u003C/span\u003E a perfect and loved creation. It was man\u0026#8217;s freely chosen will to sin that caused it to \u0026#8216;fall\u0026#8217;. Now this might raise a different question entirely, which i would be willing to discuss.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EChristian faith also holds that nobody is truly innocent or good either, and if they are, say an infant baby, then they will go to heaven. Not so terrible after all.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ENow I won\u0026#8217;t say that \u003Cspan\u003EEVERYTHING\u003C/span\u003E and all instances happen for a reason, however they might. Intentionally or not, God could use a hurricane for good. It may cause an entire nation to \u0026#8216;wake up\u0026#8217; from the vanities of life and turn to Him. And for those who die, God is just and merciful in his judgment.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EThat was mainly about death, now I will discuss suffering. Firstly, bad things must be allowed to happen in general if God allows free-will (i.e God won\u0026#8217;t always stop somebody from murder.) Another thing about suffering is that it is quite relative. We look to the starvation and pestilence in a third-world country, and claim that god has forsaken them in their suffering. Now I don\u0026#8217;t mean to sound unempathetic, but they are alive, and they can find happiness and meaning,  despite their condition.\u003Cbr /\u003E\nIf Adam and Eve in the Garden looked upon middle-class America, they might say that we are suffering, in all the bad things that we have that they wouldn\u0026#8217;t. But \u003Cbr /\u003E\nI don\u0026#8217;t question God\u0026#8217;s love and perfection every time I get sick, or a freak car accident takes the life of a teenager.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EBut I\u0026#8217;m not saying that suffering isn\u0026#8217;t real. Suffering is a very real and personal thing. But suffering isn\u0026#8217;t inherently bad. God can use suffering to reach people. And for believers, suffering allows some to grow even closer to God.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EBasically, there\u0026#8217;s enough to say that natural disasters, suffering, etc. aren\u0026#8217;t incompatible with a perfect and loving god.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EI would also say that the human experience of compassion, injustice, and empathy, is more supportive of God than the things that elicit them are unsupportive of God.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EFeb 28, 2011   4:44pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003ENo, they\u0026#8217;re bad regardless of an afterlife. Suffering is suffering, regardless of context.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003EWhere in the Bible is Earth said to be perfect?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003ESo if no one is innocent, are you implying that everyon\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003ENo, they\u0026#8217;re bad regardless of an afterlife. Suffering is suffering, regardless of context.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EWhere in the Bible is Earth said to be perfect?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ESo if no one is innocent, are you implying that everyone in fact deserves to die (except for babies)? If that\u0026#8217;s the case, then everyone should be killed by natural disasters, not just people. And anyway, where does the Bible say babies go to heaven?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ESo you admit that God lets some natural disasters occur for no reason whatsoever? If he is unjust in that respect, then why assume he\u0026#8217;s just in judging the dead? Killing people is hardly \u0026#8220;just\u0026#8221;. Anyway, couldn\u0026#8217;t he use his omnipotence to make a nation \u0026#8220;wake up\u0026#8221; with a God-inspired presidential speech or something?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EYou try finding happiness and meaning when your village has been decimated by cholera, child soldiers raped/killed you and your family, and some marauding Muslims are killing any Christians available.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EGod can use teapots to reach people, causing suffering is unnecessary.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EFeb 28, 2011   6:32pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EThe Bible doesn\u0026#8217;t explicitly state that babies go to heaven, or that the Earth was created perfect, but these things can be easily inferred by the theology.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003EAnd I didn\u0026#8217;t admit that God all\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThe Bible doesn\u0026#8217;t explicitly state that babies go to heaven, or that the Earth was created perfect, but these things can be easily inferred by the theology.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EAnd I didn\u0026#8217;t admit that God allows these things for no reason. I don\u0026#8217;t know if he does, But if he does, that doesn\u0026#8217;t necessarily make him or his creation imperfect or malevolent, as I explained.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ELooking at it more philosophically, if a perfect God created something, then his creation is perfect. You cannot claim creation to be imperfect and then deny God because of that, because first you have to presuppose an objective, and absolute perfection. And to do that, you would need an authority such as God. So you must first presuppose \u0026#8216;God\u0026#8217; in order to argue against him.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011  10:30am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EIn what way? Doesn\u0026#8217;t the Bible say we are all born with sin?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003EA world where things happen for no reason is an unfair one, as there is an unpredictable X factor on the delicate balance between hea\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EIn what way? Doesn\u0026#8217;t the Bible say we are all born with sin?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EA world where things happen for no reason is an unfair one, as there is an unpredictable X factor on the delicate balance between heaven and hell, as a natural disaster might influence you to sin, which you might not otherwise do.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EIf we presuppose a perfect god, then he must define perfect.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003Eper\u00b7fect\u2002 \u2002\u003Cbr /\u003E\n[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt]  Show \u003Cspan\u003EIPA\u003C/span\u003E\u003Cbr /\u003E\n\u2013adjective\u003Cbr /\u003E\n1.conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.\u003Cbr /\u003E\n2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ESo it appears \u0026#8220;perfect\u0026#8221; is subjective. If the world is perfect in God\u0026#8217;s opinion, but not most people\u0026#8217;s opinions, then God is perfect in God\u0026#8217;s opinion, but not by most people\u0026#8217;s definition. So when we say God is perfect, we are saying God is a narcissist.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EGod, being all-knowing, should be able to know the consequences of creating a world with the potential to make hurricanes and stuff. So, as he made the murder possible, he\u0026#8217;s as much of a murderer as one who sets a bear trap at your door. So God, by inaction, is actually causing suffering.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011  10:44am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EFor the last thing you said:\u003Cbr \u003E\u003C/br\u003E\nMaybe, but if you believe \u0026#8216;the fall\u0026#8217; doctrine, then maybe not. Either way, you haven\u0026#8217;t really shown that this is necessarily a problem. Isn\u0026#8217;t livin\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EFor the last thing you said:\u003Cbr /\u003E\nMaybe, but if you believe \u0026#8216;the fall\u0026#8217; doctrine, then maybe not. Either way, you haven\u0026#8217;t really shown that this is necessarily a problem. Isn\u0026#8217;t living in a cruel and unpredictable world all the more reason to want to seek a steadfast and peace giving God? Maybe.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EAnd original sin is a doctrine held only by Calvinist theologies, which i believe to be a heretical set of doctrines.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EC.S. Lewis writes at length concerning this issue. I would encourage you to read his essay \u0026#8220;The Problem of Pain\u0026#8221;.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011  10:48am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003ELiving in a sucky world isn\u0026#8217;t fixed by God, and can occasionally get you killed. A steadfast and peace-giving god doesn\u0026#8217;t make your life peaceful.\u003C/p\u003E\nRomans 5:12: Therefore, as by one man sin\u0026hellip;\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003ELiving in a sucky world isn\u0026#8217;t fixed by God, and can occasionally get you killed. A steadfast and peace-giving god doesn\u0026#8217;t make your life peaceful.\u003C/p\u003E\nRomans 5:12: Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so death passed onto all men, for all have sinned. (\u0026#8220;All\u0026#8221; includes babies, one might assume)\n\u003Cp\u003EI\u0026#8217;ll read the essay, I\u0026#8217;ll look it up in a moment.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011  11:06am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EMy responses are in parentheses, like so: \u0026#8220;()\u0026#8221;\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003E\u0026#8220;If God were good, He would make His creatures perfectly happy, and if He were almighty He would be able to do what he wished. But the \u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EMy responses are in parentheses, like so: \u0026#8220;()\u0026#8221;\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003E\u0026#8220;If God were good, He would make His creatures perfectly happy, and if He were almighty He would be able to do what he wished. But the creatures are not happy. Therefore God lacks either goodness, or power, or both.\u0026#8221; (you hear it all the time from Epicurus)\u003Cbr /\u003E\n\u0026#8220;either there is no spirit behind the universe, or else a spirit indifferent to good and evil, or else an evil spirit\u0026#8221; (fo shizzle)\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003E\u0026#8220;if the universe is so bad, or even half so bad, how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator?\u0026#8221; (it\u0026#8217;s comforting, people think what they want to think)\u003Cbr /\u003E\n\u0026#8220;Either He [Jesus] was a raving lunatic of an unusually abominable type, or else He was, and is, precisely what He said\u0026#8221; (just like all the countless other people who claim to be God, never heard of a God complex?)\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ELewis says that God can do anything except that which is intrinsically impossible. So, he could not have made the world, as making something from nothing (along with being eternal) is intrinsically impossible.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003E\u0026quot; if they are free, may take advantage of the fixed laws of nature to hurt one another; (seeing as a huge majority of conflict has been due to competition for resources, giving everyone enough might be a good start that wouldn\u0026#8217;t change much) that a \u0026#8220;corrective\u0026#8221; intervention by God in the laws of nature, which would remove the possibility\u2014or the effect\u2014of such abuse, while clearly imaginable, would eventually lead to a wholly meaningless universe, in which nothing important depended on man\u0026#8217;s choices (oh, so man has an effect on the universe now? Very strange assumption, Mr. Lewis) (Anyway, not having natural disasters would be a nice start).\u0026quot;\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003E\u0026#8220;[Love] would rather see [the loved ones] suffer much than be happy in contemptible and estranging modes (that\u0026#8217;s called bullshit, love is irrational, and I somehow doubt not having natural disasters is \u0026#8220;contemptible\u0026#8221;)\u0026quot;\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EDo I seriously need to read this?\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011   1:24pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003EI could refute the claims original sin, but for the sake of this discussion, let\u0026#8217;s just assume babies go to heaven.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011   4:52pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003EPlease refute it, but anyway, you can assume it for now.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  2, 2011  10:20pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EHere\u0026#8217;s a relatively short article that should suffice for now : http://www.tektonics.org/lp/origsin.html. I also just realized that this point about babies going to heaven is completely irreleva\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EHere\u0026#8217;s a relatively short article that should suffice for now : http://www.tektonics.org/lp/origsin.html. I also just realized that this point about babies going to heaven is completely irrelevant to our discussion. Because presumably babies can\u0026#8217;t go to heaven or hell unless God exists, so it would be illogical to conclude that God can\u0026#8217;t exist because of bad things like babies going to hell.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ENow regarding your critique: The only thing I care to correct you on is that intrinsic impossibility refers to something internally contradictory, such as a circular triangle, or a married bachelor.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EBut you \u003Cspan\u003EARE\u003C/span\u003E right in saying that making something from nothing and something being eternal are impossibilities, but only in our natural universe. (You can\u0026#8217;t possibly know something in an a priori sense about the supernatural \u0026#8212; even something as seemingly basic as laws of cause and effect.) But this is interesting because you admit to these things being impossible, yet isn\u0026#8217;t that the only other explanation for the universe, that it either came from \u0026#8216;nothing\u0026#8217; or was eternal? At the risk of changing topics I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on this.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EI don\u0026#8217;t agree with everything C.S. Lewis concludes, but I thought he explained away the \u0026#8216;problem of pain\u0026#8217; quite eloquently. And I especially like that last quote you cited. I don\u0026#8217;t really understand the objection you have in parentheses there.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  3, 2011   5:40pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EGod can\u0026#8217;t be benevolent if babies go to hell. Oh, and Safari can\u0026#8217;t open the specified address.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp \u003ENope. No one thinks the universe comes from nothing, but rather that it expanded from a singu\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EGod can\u0026#8217;t be benevolent if babies go to hell. Oh, and Safari can\u0026#8217;t open the specified address.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003ENope. No one thinks the universe comes from nothing, but rather that it expanded from a singularity, before which we can only speculate occurred. Or, our universe came from a black hole in another universe, in which the law of conservation of matter may or may not have existed.\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EIf a God made things in this way, inside another universe in which natural laws had little effect, then why did he send things here? Why not create life in this parallel universe in where the limits are of your imagination?\u003C/p\u003E\n\u003Cp\u003EIt\u0026#8217;s simple: To say that love involves letting people suffer for the sake of the loved ones being moral is 1) untrue, 2) is irrelevant, as people could be moral and happy at the same time, a God could have made us nicer, and 3) this in no way justifies natural disasters, as it\u0026#8217;s well known that natural disasters have nothing to do with the morality of the victims.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Samoht777\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn2.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0430/1507/Logo.png?37706-op\" title=\"Samoht777\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Samoht777\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ESamoht777\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  3, 2011   8:08pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003EThis simply goes back to epistemology. If God exists, you are in no position to make these claims. Besides that, people have formed explanations to the questions you\u0026#8217;re asking, like C.S. Lewis. \u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003EThis simply goes back to epistemology. If God exists, you are in no position to make these claims. Besides that, people have formed explanations to the questions you\u0026#8217;re asking, like C.S. Lewis. You essentially said, \u0026#8220;Nuh uh,\u0026#8221; to these explanations, so whatever.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for Flypurplehamster\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0251/6462/flying_hamster.png?2917-op\" title=\"Flypurplehamster\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/Flypurplehamster\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003EFlypurplehamster\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EMar  4, 2011   3:48am\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cdiv class=\"show_more_text_block\"\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"truncated_text\"\u003E\u003Cp \u003Eif God exists, why is it somehow impossible for me to make my claims that he is not benevolent? Has C. S. Lewis explained why natural disasters occur? Because it seemed to me like he explained pain as\u0026hellip;\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_more spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow more\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003Cdiv class=\"full_text\" style=\"display:none;\"\u003E\u003Cp\u003Eif God exists, why is it somehow impossible for me to make my claims that he is not benevolent? Has C. S. Lewis explained why natural disasters occur? Because it seemed to me like he explained pain as punishment for sin. Which natural disasters are not, or they would only affect sinners, and no babies would die.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca class=\"show_less spritegame\" href=\"#\" onclick=\"    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.full_text\u0026#x27;).hide();\n    $(this).up(\u0026#x27;.show_more_text_block\u0026#x27;).down(\u0026#x27;.truncated_text\u0026#x27;).show();\n; return false;\"\u003Eshow less\u003C/a\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003Cdiv class=\"reply media\"\u003E\n  \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/NoodleGames\" class=\"hover_profile_simple img\"\u003E\u003Cimg alt=\"avatar for NoodleGames\" class=\"user_avatar man\" height=\"40\" src=\"http://cdn3.kongcdn.com/assets/resize-image/40x40/user_avatars/0670/8549/1325646809.859792067.png?2596-op\" title=\"NoodleGames\" width=\"40\" /\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_details\"\u003E\n    \u003Ca href=\"/accounts/NoodleGames\" class=\"sender_name hover_profile_simple\"\u003ENoodleGames\u003C/a\u003E\n    \u003Cspan class=\"date\"\u003EDec 15, 2011   9:13pm\u003C/span\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\"reply_contents\"\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003EThats true.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003Cdiv class=\"clear\"\u003E\u003C/div\u003E\n\u003C/div\u003E\n","new_url":null}