Forums Kongregate

MMOs Are Ruining Kongregate... page 15

494 posts

Flag Post

Every time I see this thread bumped in the thread list, I want to scream. MMOs are not ruining Kongregate.

Let me refer you to this post. I think that it pertains to the topic of this thread as well.

 
Flag Post

Wait, people can get paid to post about how good game are? Where do I sign up?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by manstrong:

Wait, people can get paid to post about how good games are? Where do I sign up?

Actually, Kongregate will pay you not to do this. You don’t have to sign up, and if you don’t do it for an entire year, you will get 1000 kreds. Unfortunately, they won’t pay you until the year is done. They also will not tell you about this, or even acknowledge that they will do so, as they don’t want you to know about it. If you ask an admin, they will deny that they do this. I’m risking getting banned for telling you about it. You may start now.

 
Flag Post

Abuse and swearing does not make you right. Also, part of the annoyance here is in the undue space that MMOs get on Kongregate; They regularly have multiple guaranteed spots in the featured games box, they get advertised on every game page in the sponsored links section, they get ridiculous endurance badges, there’s achievements in other games that advertise MMOs. Most of these “games” are skinner boxes that reward repetitive mouse clicks with higher numbers. There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive. Time world and tyrant in particular have consistently been given space in that box since their release.

 
Flag Post

Abuse and swearing does not make you right.

No; being right makes me right.

There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive.

Oh, I think that it definitely is. Just look at the number of gameplays the games have. It means people keep coming back. I know they come back because of the energy system, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that they keep coming back MUCH more than they do to other games.

the actual games in other categories

Are you implying that the MMOs are not actual games?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

Abuse and swearing does not make you right.

No; being right makes me right.

There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive.

Oh, I think that it definitely is. Just look at the number of gameplays the games have. It means people keep coming back. I know they come back because of the energy system, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that they keep coming back MUCH more than they do to other games.

the actual games in other categories

Are you implying that the MMOs are not actual games?

I read that thread. I actually laughed at a few anti piracy posts in it.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Kegfarms:
Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

Abuse and swearing does not make you right.

No; being right makes me right.

There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive.

Oh, I think that it definitely is. Just look at the number of gameplays the games have. It means people keep coming back. I know they come back because of the energy system, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that they keep coming back MUCH more than they do to other games.

the actual games in other categories

Are you implying that the MMOs are not actual games?

I read that thread. I actually laughed at a few anti piracy posts in it.

Saying that you’re right doesn’t make you right either. Also, page views of MMOs aren’t actually that much higher than those for other games – examine card monsters and the grinns tale. The only standouts are the games that have gotten advertisements on the front page for every promotion that they’ve ever had coughtyrantdreamworldcough, and their page views can easily be attributed to the advertising that they’ve recieved – any other game with similar treatment would do just as well. And yes, I don’t think the skinner box MMOs are actual games.

 
Flag Post
Just look at the number of gameplays the games have. It means people keep coming back. I know they come back because of the energy system, but it doesn’t really matter.

No, that really does matter. When your number of plays is artificially inflated by entire orders of magnitude by an obstructive mechanic that just repeatedly pulls in the same people over and over, it’s kind of a pointless measure of demand.

If you want a good measure of demand for these games, you’d have to keep track of it by account so as not to count the same small pack of drones hundreds of times.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Pykrete:

If you want a good measure of demand for these games, you’d have to keep track of it by account so as not to count the same small pack of drones hundreds of times.

So 20,000 people who play an MMO one time represent more demand for that MMO than 2,000 people who play it every day for a year?

Tracking game plays created by an energy system is a flawed measure of demand, but tracking unique accounts is equally flawed. Unlike virtually any other genre, it is the ability to create repeat customers (rather than appeal to as many customers as possible) that defines success.


Here’s actually what might be a better example: How is repeatedly featuring an MMO that creates updates to draw back the same 20,000 players any different than repeatedly featuring a game series that creates sequels to draw back the same 20,000 players?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by ne0pets22:
Originally posted by Kegfarms:
Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

Abuse and swearing does not make you right.

No; being right makes me right.

There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive.

Oh, I think that it definitely is. Just look at the number of gameplays the games have. It means people keep coming back. I know they come back because of the energy system, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that they keep coming back MUCH more than they do to other games.

the actual games in other categories

Are you implying that the MMOs are not actual games?

I read that thread. I actually laughed at a few anti piracy posts in it.

Saying that you’re right doesn’t make you right either. Also, page views of MMOs aren’t actually that much higher than those for other games – examine card monsters and the grinns tale. The only standouts are the games that have gotten advertisements on the front page for every promotion that they’ve ever had coughtyrantdreamworldcough, and their page views can easily be attributed to the advertising that they’ve recieved – any other game with similar treatment would do just as well. And yes, I don’t think the skinner box MMOs are actual games.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

 
Flag Post

And yes, I don’t think the skinner box MMOs are actual games.

I’m confused. What is your definition of a game?

 
Flag Post

Here’s actually what might be a better example: How is repeatedly featuring an MMO that creates updates to draw back the same 20,000 players any different than repeatedly featuring a game series that creates sequels to draw back the same 20,000 players?

The game that creates sequels is adding new content, new novel content for the player to enjoy. Offering bigger numbers like MMOs do is a lazy and barely valid example of more content.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

Shoot, sorry.

Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

And yes, I don’t think the skinner box MMOs are actual games.

I’m confused. What is your definition of a game?

A game is structured play that features goals, rules, challenge and interaction. The MMOs score high on goals, and they have firm rules in place. What they completely miss out on is challenge and interaction; rats can press buttons to recieve rewards, games that feature repetitive and featureless game mechanics are little more than the interaction chambers that skinner devised. And card games that play themselves, or fight buttons that merely compare numbers do not count to me as substantive interaction.

 
Flag Post

A game is structured play that features goals, rules, challenge and interaction.

So by that logic, any game that is not challenging is not actually a game?

War is a card game. It’s pure luck, there is no challenge at all. But it’s still a game.

Most idle games have no interaction, but they are still games.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

A game is structured play that features goals, rules, challenge and interaction.

So by that logic, any game that is not challenging is not actually a game?

War is a card game. It’s pure luck, there is no challenge at all. But it’s still a game.

Most idle games have no interaction, but they are still games.

Games that present no challenge or interaction may as well be movies, if not for the clicking you need to forward them.

The human-to-human interaction that war encourages as a card game fills in for the engagement – if I had to play war against a computer, I would quit out of boredom. War is also targeted at a younger audience for which the rules of war make for sufficient interaction to keep them interested.

Most idle games present some kind of interaction and challenge. You can win or lose a game of solitaire based on your choices, you can decide what towers to place and where to place them in a tower defence game.

You could argue that numbers comparison MMOs appeal to the juvenile audience that can only handle simple rules like those present in war, but is that the audience this site wants to aim for? The site that sold itself on it’s excellent community and chat rooms wants to make young children it’s target audience?

Also, you appear to be fixated on one thing I said. Ignoring your opponent’s points is poor debate practice:

Saying that you’re right doesn’t make you right either. Also, page views of MMOs aren’t actually that much higher than those for other games – examine card monsters and the grinns tale. The only standouts are the games that have gotten advertisements on the front page for every promotion that they’ve ever had coughtyrantdreamworldcough, and their page views can easily be attributed to the advertising that they’ve recieved – any other game with similar treatment would do just as well.

Originally posted by ne0pets22:

Also, part of the annoyance here is in the undue space that MMOs get on Kongregate; They regularly have multiple guaranteed spots in the featured games box, they get advertised on every game page in the sponsored links section, they get ridiculous endurance badges, there’s achievements in other games that advertise MMOs.

And there’s the pageviews track that has led so far to:

Originally posted by ne0pets22:

Here’s actually what might be a better example: How is repeatedly featuring an MMO that creates updates to draw back the same 20,000 players any different than repeatedly featuring a game series that creates sequels to draw back the same 20,000 players?

The game that creates sequels is adding new content, new novel content for the player to enjoy. Offering bigger numbers like MMOs do is a lazy and barely valid example of more content.

 
Flag Post

I don’t really see anything wrong with MMO’s, to be honest with you, I have always thought that if you don’t like a game, just don’t play it or pay attention to it.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Johanna_T: or pay attention to it.
Originally posted by ne0pets22:

Also, part of the annoyance here is in the undue space that MMOs get on Kongregate; They regularly have multiple guaranteed spots in the featured games box, they get advertised on every game page in the sponsored links section, they get ridiculous endurance badges, there’s achievements in other games that advertise MMOs. Most of these “games” are skinner boxes that reward repetitive mouse clicks with higher numbers. There is demand for MMOs, but I doubt it is proportional to the amount of publicity that the actual games in other categories receive.

 
Flag Post

I hate some of these MMOs as much as the next guy, and I may make complaints about it in the chat, but I can totally see why Kong has them. Same thing for games that I feel don’t need sequels. It’s all about the money. MMO’s are doing the opposite of ruining Kongregate, they are funding it.

 
Flag Post

That can’t do that without the obnoxious advertisements everywhere?

 
Flag Post

They already get the bulk of their paying userbase before it gets badged and advertised to hell. If anything, doing so is losing the site more face than they gain in paying players and ad revenue.

 
Flag Post

As the admins have repeatedly mentioned, MMOs have to continually draw in new players, or they will die. That is why they are advertised so frequently. Unless you want to have more literally impossible badges such as Caesary, Battalion: Arena, and Zening, you have to tolerate the advertising.

 
Flag Post

Caesary didn’t get axed wasn’t because it was dying, it was because someone actually bothered to call it on art theft and threaten legal action.

Which, you know, could conceivably be used to shut down most of the MMO’s on this site.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Pykrete:

Caesary didn’t get axed wasn’t because it was dying, it was because someone actually bothered to call it on art theft and threaten legal action.

Which, you know, could conceivably be used to shut down most of the MMO’s on this site.

Probably just a bunch of bullshit anyway. Seen a lot of copyright claims where people were just looking for money.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Pykrete:

Caesary didn’t get axed wasn’t because it was dying, it was because someone actually bothered to call it on art theft and threaten legal action.

Which, you know, could conceivably be used to shut down most of the MMO’s on this site.

Well, it was a bit more than threaten legal action. It was actual legal action that they lost. Though last time I checked, they were doing their best to avoid paying out the damages and shut down the game.

Edit: For reference to the above poster. It wasn’t bullshit, it was completely legit and Caesary/Call of Roma (they changed their name to Call of Roma to try and get around the lawsuit) lost the case. Though, it is a bit silly that it was the makers of Evony that sued.

 
Flag Post

And furthermore, it’s not remotely uncommon for these MMO’s to steal art. For instance, the same company’s next one, Crystal Saga, has a lot of flagrant lifts from the Magna Carta series. Aurora Blade stole art from a bunch of other MMO’s including WoW. Armed Heroes Online stole assets from Torchlight. The list goes on and on.

Chinese developers do this all the time. And art theft happens most in these rudimentary cashgrab MMO’s because that’s about the only part of the whole process that a single programmer can’t roll out in a few weeks.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Fricknmaniac:
Originally posted by Pykrete:

Caesary didn’t get axed wasn’t because it was dying, it was because someone actually bothered to call it on art theft and threaten legal action.

Which, you know, could conceivably be used to shut down most of the MMO’s on this site.

Well, it was a bit more than threaten legal action. It was actual legal action that they lost. Though last time I checked, they were doing their best to avoid paying out the damages and shut down the game.

Edit: For reference to the above poster. It wasn’t bullshit, it was completely legit and Caesary/Call of Roma (they changed their name to Call of Roma to try and get around the lawsuit) lost the case. Though, it is a bit silly that it was the makers of Evony that sued.

Heh similar names = “theft” now?

Originally posted by Pykrete:

And furthermore, it’s not remotely uncommon for these MMO’s to steal art. For instance, the same company’s next one, Crystal Saga, has a lot of flagrant lifts from the Magna Carta series. Aurora Blade stole art from a bunch of other MMO’s including WoW. Armed Heroes Online stole assets from Torchlight. The list goes on and on.

Chinese developers do this all the time. And art theft happens most in these rudimentary cashgrab MMO’s because that’s about the only part of the whole process that a single programmer can’t roll out in a few weeks.

That sounds like copyright infringement and not actual theft.