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MMOs Are Ruining Kongregate... page 7

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100% correct. energy refill inst suposed to be the most moneymaker . See this topic is very strange while i am one of the developer yet i am kongregate player also .

You’re also a (now) MMO developer that converses with Kongregate players a lot. Your own MMO has an energy system in which you can spend skill points on energy if you wish to play more. That’s an MMO I can respect.

 
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Ok, maybe its time to bump this. Last 50 badges added:

Action – 9 (4 games)
Shooter – 3 (1 game)
Adventure & RPG – 3 (1 game)
Sports & Racing – 0
Strategy & Defense – 10 (3 games)
Puzzle – 12 (7 games)
Music & More – 0
MULTIPLAYER – 13 (6 games)

Im a badge hunter, level 65, over 2000 badges. I used to have fun getting the damn badges. But this is now changing. I used even to be proud of having all Multiplayer badges. I usually dislike MMOs, but it was ok putting some effort on it every 2-3 months for some new badges.

Hey, whatahell? Now you get badges from a multiplayer game, and there are 3 other badged? Look, recently like 25% of the badges (and games badged) are from multiplayer games. U know, those with energy systems, items u should farm an entire year (or spend real money) to get, etc. Not counting other games that arent MMOs but have anything semi-decent as premium content. Like Bloons TD 327 and Relic of War (Nazi skin of Necronator 2, which used just the name of an once fun game, Necronator).

And what now? Look at Kong front page, hot new games: out of 9, 4 have multiplayer tag, and from the others, at least 1 is probably a “freemium” game, from developers of a game mentioned above. Maybe more. How many of these will be badged?

This is killing my badge hunting fun. Greedy companies are now launching crappy MMOs and freemiums all the time. I understand the profit they generate to kong, so I agree with things like the weekly challenge to suggest players to play them, news in the front page, even some pms to your profile (maybe even the rules changes that made possible to include the “profitable” Tyrant in the best of 2011 quest). Some of the best could even really get badges, but the way it is going recently, its not right. Looks like all crappy MMO and freemium gets badged, to generate profit to the site, and the staff is not even paying attention anymore to the single games. How many were badged that werent sequels or a new skin of an older work of the same developer (maybe with different playability, but same essence, like Knightmare Tower and Burrito Bison, which are both launcher games)?

If these games are “pay to win” type, does it mean “pay to badge” for kong? What the point of having badges then, if they can require money, not skill? Like, I buy everything useful from premium content in Bloons TD. Is the hard badge still a hard?

Dunno about u guys, but all this greed is killing my fun. Beyond that, I seriously doubt even MMOs lovers will play all these games. So why not just choose the best of each genre, like it used to be?

 
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They won’t be badged if they’re not rated highly enough. They’re rated highly enough because the community (as a whole) likes them. Does it suck? Yes. But it’s all within how the (current) system works.

 
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@ Marvaddin, with the exception of one badge, I think the last 50 badges are fine. For the hard Kingdoms CCG badge, I would sooner jump naked into an active volcano. However, the other badges are reasonable and don’t take all that long, even if some of the games themselves suck horribly.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:

@ Marvaddin, with the exception of one badge, I think the last 50 badges are fine. For the hard Kingdoms CCG badge, I would sooner jump naked into an active volcano.

The hard Kingdoms badge doesn’t take long. I never replayed old levels and only restarted/forfeited a battle like five times, so it comes down to how long it takes you to complete 60 – 70 battles, depending on how many times you restart.

 
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Originally posted by adv0catus:

They won’t be badged if they’re not rated highly enough. They’re rated highly enough because the community (as a whole) likes them.

Not really. The recommendations system notices when you downvote a genre regularly, thus doesn’t show them to you at all. So at first, the only people who even notice new MMO’s at all are a small subset of obsessive tards with their daddy’s credit card number who buy stuff and see big numbers, and then rate 5 — the definition of selection bias. When it gets badged and the rest of the community sees it, the rating spikes down immediately.

The solution of course is to make MMO’s that bother to be games so that people who stray from their comfort zone will at least be surprised by something good and thus not get datamined out by the system. Or at least, you know, apply some damn quality control to the badges so the crappy ones that got a high rating in their little bubble of isolation and immediately get downvoted by everyone else when exposed (thus locking them out of the selection even more) aren’t the only ones that get more exposure.

 
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It’d be interesting to know if A) Greg or Raw actually played the game and B) Enjoyed it. If B = Yes, then C) How? Explain what was appealing aboot Berserk: The Cataclysm

 
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Originally posted by Pykrete:
Originally posted by adv0catus:

They won’t be badged if they’re not rated highly enough. They’re rated highly enough because the community (as a whole) likes them.

Not really. The recommendations system notices when you downvote a genre regularly, thus doesn’t show them to you at all. So at first, the only people who even notice new MMO’s at all are a small subset of obsessive tards with their daddy’s credit card number who buy stuff and see big numbers, and then rate 5 — the definition of selection bias. When it gets badged and the rest of the community sees it, the rating spikes down immediately.

I’ve said it before, but the rating system is imperfect. There’s not really a perfect way to improve it, but there needs to be greater editorial control over badge assignment. Rating and API should be necessary, not sufficient, criteria for badging a game.

 
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The reason why mmo’s are popular on the kong front page is very simple, it’s the only reason that makes sense really: all flash mmo’s here are free-to-play. Free-to-play is really just a different way to say pay-to-win. In other words: mmo’s make kong money because they get a percentage of all kred sales. That’s also the reason why they’re doing their very best to get as many mmo developers as possible featuring their games on kong. Just check out the developer section of the kong website and you’ll know enough. Whole sections about how you can make more money with your mmo on kong. There are three big sections: facebook devs, mmo/virtual goods devs and single player devs. You have to be really blind to not see the connection between income for kong and mmo/facebook games… Now, I’m not saying Kong can’t make money, not at all, but it would be good form to actually come out for it that it’s the main reason for certain actions being taken instead of beating around the bush and coming up with all kinds of secondary reasons to try and hide the primary reason. ^^

 
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I like Most of the mmos on here, there is just a few bad ones…

 
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Originally posted by Tetsuo_Shima:

Now, I’m not saying Kong can’t make money, not at all, but it would be good form to actually come out for it that it’s the main reason for certain actions being taken instead of beating around the bush and coming up with all kinds of secondary reasons to try and hide the primary reason. ^^

No company would do that though, so expecting Kong to do it is a little unfair.

The day any business stops pretending to be your buddy and starts telling you you’re a mobile cash machine is the day that business fails.

 
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Maybe all the pro-MMO crowd is right for themselves, but this guy (level 54, so not captain of the universe, but still a long term gamer) is close to ending his relationship with Kong, and has already reactivated his adblocker for the site. The moneygrubbing is just too clear to ignore. Quality no longer matters here.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:

@ Marvaddin, with the exception of one badge, I think the last 50 badges are fine. For the hard Kingdoms CCG badge, I would sooner jump naked into an active volcano. However, the other badges are reasonable and don’t take all that long, even if some of the games themselves suck horribly.

Ok, so you are saying that easy and medium badges for sucky MMO games are ok, right? My point is the same. If its not a good / fun game, it shouldnt have badges. I agree that having easy / medium badges would not really attract the fury of the community, but in most cases, if it doesnt deserves to played at all (until you get something to achieve), no need to badge it.

No one seems to pay attention to my question about the single player games being badged. Kong staff just seems to ignore these games recently, just giving badges to sequels, aaaaaaand, a lot of MMOs. In fact, there is no incentive to new devs to upload their games here. Is Kong going to be a simple cash machine? Im sure Kong is a site constructed around the badges, and wouldnt be 20% of what it is without the badges. Now looks like the staff is just too greedy, and they are going to risk all that is done since 2007 for a better revenue next year. Mate, if they f*ck the badge experience, this site wont last 2 years.

I say, more badges, more games, more genres, less money whoring. Is that ask too much? Give us even some badges of these cash sucker games, just dont give us it all the time, this is not what we are looking for.

 
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What I find amazing about all the cashgrab-MMOs is that I open the game-immediately see the forum tab instead of comments so I immediately no it’s cashgrab. Then I look through comments and all the top comments and the last 3 pages of comments are all mostly negative. But somehow these games keep coming and coming. And getting badged over and over again. 90% aren’t even good. Most are just no fun to play. They play like demos. Free to try, pay to enjoy. And I am almost certain the ratings get artificially changed my kongstaff in order to justify badging them over and over again. Simply because the comments do not represent the rating at all. I mean there are a few really good ones in there, but most are the most obvious cashgrabs ever. And how people keep getting fooled over and over again I will never understand.

Personally I just stopped playing these games altogether. I open them, usually check for 5 mins. Normally after tutorial you can already see if it is cashgrab or not (Energy system, outrageous premium prices, pay2win items, etc.). Rate 1 star and leave.

 
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Originally posted by NeilSenna:

No company would do that though, so expecting Kong to do it is a little unfair.

The day any business stops pretending to be your buddy and starts telling you you’re a mobile cash machine is the day that business fails.

Won’t stop me from trying to inform people who haven’t thought it through as well as you have though. ^^

 
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There are a lot of crappy MMO games out there, I won’t lie. Some of them give others a bad name being cookie-cutter clones only out to make a quick buck. There are a good handful of games, of which we try to bring to this site, that are fun though and have a pretty significant fanbase. Nothing requires users to play these games though, nor do we require that users spend money – the option is there if you want to, but we strive to find games that can be played (and badges earned) without spending a single penny. I used to feel distaste towards them, until I tried a few out of curiousity, and realized they can be a bit grindy, but a lot of the ones with respectful developers are pretty addicting.

I do understand many of your concerns though, and that it seems like we are pushing these games because we’re money grubbing fascists who want to sit on golden toilet seats. The truth is, this game group that makes a very small percentage of our game base (probably 1%?) accounts for a lot of the revenue that keeps our site running and allows us to pay developers, pay employees, sponsor contests for you guys, advertising, and make the site more appealing for other developers.

This doesn’t mean we’re going to ride on the coat tails of MMOs though. This website has and always will be about providing the best online flash games to our users. From small-time independent developers, to big companies, the range of games on this website is immense – and we strive to bring the best of these games to you, either on the homepage, recommended games, badges, spotlights, etc. If MMOs don’t tickle your fancy, there are many other options out there that are available. You just need to look. :) But in my opinion (and not as an employee), MMOs aren’t ruining Kongregate. They’re just a genre of gaming that certain users do enjoy, and there are still thousands upon thousands of games besides MMOs that are available every day to play. If I don’t want to play an MMO, it’s easy to look passed them and play something else – but I’m still open to the idea that there are good MMOs out there, and I won’t bash a developer/game just for being an MMO.

 
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Originally posted by Zshadow:

I do understand many of your concerns though, and that it seems like we are pushing these games because we’re money grubbing fascists who want to sit on golden toilet seats. The truth is, this game group that makes a very small percentage of our game base (probably 1%?) accounts for a lot of the revenue that keeps our site running and allows us to pay developers, pay employees, sponsor contests for you guys, advertising, and make the site more appealing for other developers.

That’s reason enough for me (personally, at least) to put up with MMO’s, even if I don’t like them. We want Kongregate to grow and continue to as each day passes.

 
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Originally posted by Marvaddin:
Originally posted by bobby71983:

@ Marvaddin, with the exception of one badge, I think the last 50 badges are fine. For the hard Kingdoms CCG badge, I would sooner jump naked into an active volcano. However, the other badges are reasonable and don’t take all that long, even if some of the games themselves suck horribly.

Ok, so you are saying that easy and medium badges for sucky MMO games are ok, right? My point is the same. If its not a good / fun game, it shouldnt have badges. I agree that having easy / medium badges would not really attract the fury of the community, but in most cases, if it doesnt deserves to played at all (until you get something to achieve), no need to badge it.

No one seems to pay attention to my question about the single player games being badged. Kong staff just seems to ignore these games recently, just giving badges to sequels, aaaaaaand, a lot of MMOs. In fact, there is no incentive to new devs to upload their games here. Is Kong going to be a simple cash machine? Im sure Kong is a site constructed around the badges, and wouldnt be 20% of what it is without the badges. Now looks like the staff is just too greedy, and they are going to risk all that is done since 2007 for a better revenue next year. Mate, if they f*ck the badge experience, this site wont last 2 years.

I say, more badges, more games, more genres, less money whoring. Is that ask too much? Give us even some badges of these cash sucker games, just dont give us it all the time, this is not what we are looking for.

Just because you don’t like the game, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be badged.

I remember when Raze 2 got badged a while back, I said it was a crappy game that should never have been badged, and some people said it was game of the year. Who was right?

Neither of us was right.

I said I agree with more single player games being badged, but NOT at the cost of multiplayer games being badged. Why not badge many of both?

 
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Thanks for speaking up zshadow. I was wondering when someone from the admin team would state a position. There’s been some growing contempt over the recent spate of badges for some time, in multiple threads.

Everyone gets why MMOs are here. I think the real problem is that to many people the kong experience they are getting is that MMOs appear to be pushed front-and-center. And while these games tend to have decent or better ratings, they don’t appeal to all gamer types. Plus these games tend to employ the same BS designs that Zynga popularized, and tend to have dubious levels of ‘gameplay’.

I think all that Kong really needs to do to address the perception is to badge more non-MMO games. It’s been shown that this year, there are significantly less badges per month than there were last year. That coupled with the higher rate of badges being given to MMOs really creates the perception that Kong is driving MMOs front-and-center. There are lots of deserving games of recent that are totally deserving of badges.

TL;DR — Easy win: make 10 more badges per month and assign them to non MMO games

 
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There are two different types of MMOs:

1. Multiplayer games.
2. Pay-to-win games.

I feel the latter is really hurting the former. There are some awesome multiplayer games (even though I don’t do the multiplayer part) without energy systems or “good” players that destroy your little town the moment you’re out of newbie protection. These should be recognised and badged, hard badges should be no exception.

Pay-to-win games get high ratings. I don’t know how many paying players are on Kongregate and, if that amount is little, I have no clue how games like that keep getting high ratings, but I do know they’re downgrades from real games. Free players are punished:

1. Energy system: You can’t play whenever you want.
2. Limited inventory: You lose a lot of in-game currency and are unable to try out different strategies.
3. “Newbie protection”: This one basically says “you’ve got 7 days to enjoy this game, then expect to be ripped apart by the paying players we actually care about”.
4. Extremely long building times: There have been games that have buildings seriously taking weeks to finish, and that was after only a month of “playing” (starting it up once a day to see if you’ve got another open spot for building).

You can upgrade to a “normal” game (see: all good singleplayer games out there) by paying, but why do players even want to? Why not pick a singleplayer game in which you can play whenever you want, have anything you want in your inventory, do not go online to see your base destroyed by someone you couldn’t have protected against, and do not have to log in every few days to continue your slow-paced game.

So, the important part here is badges. Surprise, surprise, they do deserve badges, but only up to medium badges. A hard on any such MMO merely tests your patience. How long are you willing to wait for a badge? Why badge that in the first place? Put badges to get paying players to play such games, but don’t put hard badges for everyone to just wait it out. That’s silly. Instead, put those hards on real MMOs that do not punish free players.

 
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I think that there has been an improvement on the types of badges that MMO’s are getting – I feel like greg/raw have listened to the feedback and while the number of MMO badges may have increased, the amount of time commitment has become a lot more reasonable. That being said, I’m not sure whether MMO’s with easy/medium badges only are still due for hard badges once content is more finalized, but I sure hope that’s not the case.

 
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Originally posted by JamesBont:

I think that there has been an improvement on the types of badges that MMO’s are getting – I feel like greg/raw have listened to the feedback and while the number of MMO badges may have increased, the amount of time commitment has become a lot more reasonable. That being said, I’m not sure whether MMO’s with easy/medium badges only are still due for hard badges once content is more finalized, but I sure hope that’s not the case.

It’s too early to tell and the sample rate is pretty small. Plus the badges for Berserk are pretty silly.

 
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Absolutely agree that these cash-grab games are completely ruining Kong.

 
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Originally posted by Zshadow:

This doesn’t mean we’re going to ride on the coat tails of MMOs though. This website has and always will be about providing the best online flash games to our users. From small-time independent developers, to big companies, the range of games on this website is immense – and we strive to bring the best of these games to you, either on the homepage, recommended games, badges, spotlights, etc. If MMOs don’t tickle your fancy, there are many other options out there that are available. You just need to look. :) But in my opinion (and not as an employee), MMOs aren’t ruining Kongregate. They’re just a genre of gaming that certain users do enjoy, and there are still thousands upon thousands of games besides MMOs that are available every day to play. If I don’t want to play an MMO, it’s easy to look passed them and play something else – but I’m still open to the idea that there are good MMOs out there, and I won’t bash a developer/game just for being an MMO.

It’s hard to believe that when it seems that there are ads for the mmo’s all over the homepage, and they seem to get added attention when they “add expansions” or “update” their game and it automatically gets a spot on the featured games section until another mmo gets an update. Yet single-player indie games get no such love.