Forums Kongregate

Kongregate players need to learn what Pay-To-Win means (locked)

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I see threads all the time that basically claim any game with micropurchases is pay-to-win, how pay-to-win and mmos are “ruining kongregate”.

Now some guy is accusing my game of being Pay-To-Win. Dude is totally ignorant, comes in claiming the things you can buy are a “huge advantage” (for the most part they actually just let you skip through the beginning level which gets a bit dull on purpose to entice you to pay to skip it.) The things you can buy offer next to no advantage for an experienced player, and at most would let them get out of a very bad situation that they created through their own poor planning.

Yet this guy decides without hardly playing the game at all that it’s P2W and these purchases are a huge advantage. Claims there’s an obvious P2W situation already since it’s been out such a short time (game was active for years on Facebook before I brought it here). Knows nothing about the game and calls it P2W anyway out of ignorance.

So please, Kongregate players, stop branding games P2W if you don’t understand them. Just because a game has micropurchases doesn’t make it P2W. For it to be P2W, purchases are REQUIRED to be competitive. That doesn’t describe most good micropurchase games, and certainly doesn’t describe mine.

 
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*pays to skip rant* Win!

I’m just jesting. Users are going to believe what they want to believe. People call everything gay nowadays without even thinking about the logic of what they’re saying. It’s probably best to just let bygones be bygones and strive to be better than other microtransaction games. Just enjoy it.

Although, I think the biggest problem people have with _micro_transactions, is that they’re asking for more money than physical variants of the same thing. Digital cards vs. physical cards as a prime example. So, a norm is set in many to see purchase possibility and assume the worst.

All in all, I wouldn’t let it get to you. Good luck.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

(for the most part they actually just let you skip through the beginning level which gets a bit dull on purpose to entice you to pay to skip it.) .

That seems really odd to me. Usually, most developers make their first level fun to get players addicted. If a first level bored me, I wouldn’t pay money to skip the level; I would just skip the game entirely.

Anyway, don’t let one player get to you like SicMirx said. If you only run across one person on the Internet that doesn’t know what they are talking about, then consider yourself lucky.

 
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When I say first level, I’m not referring to a platformer type level or a game stage. I mean the first player level (tier, technically). The first level locks out pvp features so you can get used to the game, but by the time you hit 3000/5000 clout or so, you’ll be mostly used to the base game and enticed by these other features and higher-cost abilities (both of which you can see) and anxious to try them out. The vast majority of players simply play their way through CT1 without paying anyway. There’s plenty in the first bit to get people hooked.

 
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Great example OP. You are paying to skip part of a level. Lazy much?

Pay2win is paying to get the advantage to “win” the game quicker or win over others. Any FPS that sells powerful weapons, even it’s for a day, is pay2win, cause you get advantage over others.

If a game is advertising content that can only be played if you buy it via $$$, it’s considered pay2play.

If it helps you win the game – pay 2 win

If it helps you beat others via online – pay 2 win

 
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Buying clout doesn’t do either of those things, so by your own definition my game is not pay2play or pay2win.

You didn’t seem to read my last post, either. This isn’t a platformer level you’re skipping.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

I see threads all the time that basically claim any game with micropurchases is pay-to-win, how pay-to-win and mmos are “ruining kongregate”.

Now some guy is accusing my game of being Pay-To-Win. Dude is totally ignorant, comes in claiming the things you can buy are a “huge advantage” (for the most part they actually just let you skip through the beginning level which gets a bit dull on purpose to entice you to pay to skip it.) The things you can buy offer next to no advantage for an experienced player, and at most would let them get out of a very bad situation that they created through their own poor planning.

Yet this guy decides without hardly playing the game at all that it’s P2W and these purchases are a huge advantage. Claims there’s an obvious P2W situation already since it’s been out such a short time (game was active for years on Facebook before I brought it here). Knows nothing about the game and calls it P2W anyway out of ignorance.

So please, Kongregate players, stop branding games P2W if you don’t understand them. Just because a game has micropurchases doesn’t make it P2W. For it to be P2W, purchases are REQUIRED to be competitive. That doesn’t describe most good micropurchase games, and certainly doesn’t describe mine.

I couldn’t care less about your game but I think it’s pathetic that any developer would make a thread on the forums to call out one player for posting a comment you don’t agree with.

 
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You’re joking, right? Did you even read the post you quoted?

I don’t think there’s a single forum I’ve gone into that didn’t have at least one thread with multiple posts claiming kongregate is dying from MMOs/micropurchase games and everything is P2W. It’s incredibly stupid, people don’t seem to understand what P2W games actually are, and it’s really just kind of insulting to developers. We’re going out of our way to make games for people that are free. Personally I made sure that mine is really free. There is no content that’s inaccessible to a non-paying player. I also made sure that what you can buy won’t damage game balance. And the game gets branded P2W by people who haven’t even played it and don’t know what it is just because I included some way to try and get a return on my effort. It comes across as very entitled and ungrateful.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

For it to be P2W, purchases are REQUIRED to be competitive.

I think what we have here is just a different interpretation of what ‘pay-to-win’ means. To you it’s one thing. To that guy playing your game it’s another. To a lot of people sick of the proliferation of microtransaction-filled crap (and most of it is crap, not played yours so can’t comment on specifics) it’s just a perjorative term for any game which confers advantages onto a paying player.

To me… P2W is when paying real money gives one player an advantage over another who doesn’t, to create a situation where two equally-skilled players will be on different levels because one paid and one didn’t. Both can still be competitive and play the game fully, but it won’t just be skill or luck determining their ranking/level/whatever.

But I’ll generally only (negatively) call a game P2W when the financial cost or advantage conferred reaches a certain level.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

You’re joking, right? Did you even read the post you quoted?

I don’t think there’s a single forum I’ve gone into that didn’t have at least one thread with multiple posts claiming kongregate is dying from MMOs/micropurchase games and everything is P2W.

Your thread is coming off more as a complaint and whinefest because one user doesn’t like your game, to be honest.

 
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Guess people need to gain some reading comprehension skills, then. :)

Plenty of people have posted negative comments about my game. And if I was trying to call someone out… don’t you think I’d mention their username?

 
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And “any advantage at all” is not “pay to win”.

Pay to win means you… pay to win. If you don’t pay, you CAN’T win. You can play, but you can never be competitive. If you pay more, you win more. Whoever pays the most is the best character.

Do you think Spiral Knights is P2W, for example? They allow unlimited purchases that can greatly affect the game… yet I never spent a red cent and never had any issues with top-tier PvP. Skill still matters WAY more than how much you spend. Therefore it isn’t P2W. Games like that have paid options for more casual players that want to experience upper-level play without grinding to get there. The people who spend a ton usually aren’t very good if for no other reason than they have much less practice with the game.

edit: the only exception in Spiral Knights is due to poor design: low-tier PvP twinks. Mostly with heart pendants. It stops being an issue in top level play, but I do think they should have stopped low tier twinks from happening. It would have been plenty easy to code around without any change to the micropurchases.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

Did you even read the post you quoted?

Nope, when I’m on the forums I just quote random posts and then guess at what they said. I have an incredibly good hit rate though, you’d think my posts would be offtopic way more often than they actually are. Weirdly, I noticed that you told several other people they can’t read as well, and all of them were people who were disagreeing with your opinion. i’m sure that’s complete coincidence though.

Personally, I consider pay-to-win to be anything where you buy an ingame advantage (as opposed to cosmetic items) anyway. Why? Because if I’m going head to head with an equally skilled player, whichever one of us has the paid advantage is the one that’s going to win. It might not allow me to beat the top tier of players, but I’m still paying to beat someone else.

Originally posted by delosford:
It comes across as very entitled and ungrateful.

I note from your own posting history that you’re equally willing to publicly trash people or games that do things you disagree with. Just saying.

 
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You have no idea what P2W means. Stop using the term.

If you can get the same item/stuff/whatever by playing the game that this other person bought… they have no advantage over you. Skill wins out. Their only advantage is that they didn’t have to play as long as you did to get that gear.

In my game, what you can buy affects gameplay in a way that isn’t related to direct pvp interaction. It also doesn’t allow you to gain or do anything that a non-paying player cannot do. This is not pay to win.

As for my own posting history… excuse me? Would you mind quoting whatever you’re talking about, because I looked back in my 36 forum posts and the vast majority of them are about the kongregate API and some issues I had getting my game Kreds enabled. I can’t find a single one trashing any person or game.

Thanks for proving you don’t even remotely give a shit about being accurate about anything you say. Kind of ironic you tried to be sarcastic about that bit since it actually seems to be true…

edit: oh wait, I found ONE comment on a game saying the mechanics had serious issues. The mechanics DO have serious issues, and I outlined exactly why. I’m not sure how you think that’s a pattern of inaccurately “trashing” games.

 
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It’s incredibly stupid, people don’t seem to understand what P2W games actually are, and it’s really just kind of insulting to developers.

I have not bothered to check your game, but I’ll just take you credibly and think that your game is not pay-to-win. To be honestly, people saying that Kong is turning to a more P2W environment, they’re mostly right. I can’t think of any popular multiplayer games with microtransaction (with a few exceptions like Transofrmice) that doesn’t give advantages on Kong, so that’s what people are basing their claims on.

 
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There is a difference between a microtransaction giving an advantage and a microtransaction giving an unfair advantage which cannot be attained by a non-paying player.

The former is not pay to win. The latter is.

If a game just lets you buy advancement-type advantages that you earn anyway by playing the game… there’s no real advantage being gained by the paying player except that they have to play the game less to advance normally. Their “advantage” is the same as if they had just started the game a month/week/whatever earlier than you. Complaining about that is on the same level as complaining that longer-standing players in every MMO tend to be more powerful. It’s rare that they did anything exceptional to get to level 50 billion; it’s just a matter of time. Some people don’t have that time, and thus these sort of advancement mechanics are a boon to more casual players and allow them to experience lengthy MMOs more completely.

 
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A question to all of you whiny little children.

Please explain how Pay-to-Win is bad. Life is pay to win. Go ahead and whine about that, why don’tcha? Are you gonna quit life because rich people have an advantage? Stop being little turdmonkeys and deal with the fact that maybe yes, it is perfectly fair that if you pay, you will get benefits that non-payers don’t.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

You have no idea what P2W means. Stop using the term.

Since its a colloquialism , then I think my interpretation is as likely to be correct as yours is. Possibly more so since you’re likely to be biased towards the definition that excludes your game from it.

Originally posted by delosford:
I can’t find a single one trashing any person or game.

Thanks for proving you don’t even remotely give a shit about being accurate about anything you say. Kind of ironic you tried to be sarcastic about that bit since it actually seems to be true…

edit: oh wait, I found ONE comment on a game saying the mechanics had serious issues. The mechanics DO have serious issues, and I outlined exactly why. I’m not sure how you think that’s a pattern of inaccurately “trashing” games.

Like you mentioned, your comment on Tyrant was pretty negative, much more so than the comment on your game you’re complaining about here. I dont think the Tyrant devs made a thread in the forums about your comment, but maybe I missed it.

As for your other posts, there’s a pretty clear pattern in them, here and in the other topics you mentioned. Anyone that doesn’t say exactly what you want to hear gets trashed. Kong staff? “Incompetent”, amongst other things, according to you. Comments on your game? “Ignorance”. Replies here? “You can’t read”… spot the theme xD

Originally posted by delosford:
Kind of ironic you tried to be sarcastic about that bit since it actually seems to be true…

Who said I was being sarcastic? :)

 
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Giving people a short cut to get around actually playing the game is probably not going to be liked very well by anyone that prefers to earn it by actually playing it. To some of them it is the same as an advantage that was payed for. This is especially true when there is a high scores list. Paying to advance through the levels quicker to move up the high scores is by some viewed much the same as hacking or botting. You didn’t earn it.

Personally, I dislike all micro-transaction games. I also really wish that facebook games would stay on facebook.

 
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P2W has a specific, established meaning going back a good number of years. The term predates this website. Only on Kongregate do people think any non-cosmetic microtransaction makes a game P2W.

The real meaning is right in the name: Pay to Win.

Not… Pay to Advance Faster
Not… Pay to be on the same level as someone who plays more frequently

Pay to WIN. Paying money wins you the game. Get it? It’s really simple. Not much open to interpretation.

I’m also sorry you fail to understand the difference between an accurately critical comment and a completely inaccurate and ignorant comment that demonstrates a larger trend of Kongregate players misunderstanding the term P2W. If you need some help understanding this, why not try to figure out why I didn’t post a thread relating to any other negative comment on my game? It probably wasn’t just a coincidence.

And you know, I’m just not seeing the word “ignorance” in any of my replies to comments on my game. Perhaps you’d like to link/offer a direct quote? It’ll help you not pull things out of your ass so often. If you’re talking about words I used in this thread and not the comments for my game, please try to indicate what you actually mean next time. Thanks in advance.

Finally, you hilariously failed to read and comprehend the post I made about Kongregate. I never called the dev staff incompetent; the point was that they were weren’t being honest about working on the supposed bug (that ended up not actually existing at all.) Maybe you need to… work on your reading skills?

So really all you’ve got is that I accurately criticize people for responding to things without reading or comprehending them. Wow. I’m a monster. Somebody stop me.

 
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http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/19/the-daily-grind-how-do-you-define-pay-to-win/

 
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Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

A question to all of you whiny little children.

Please explain how Pay-to-Win is bad. Life is pay to win. Go ahead and whine about that, why don’tcha? Are you gonna quit life because rich people have an advantage? Stop being little turdmonkeys and deal with the fact that maybe yes, it is perfectly fair that if you pay, you will get benefits that non-payers don’t.

After this post, I may have to change my reply in the thread about the biggest D-bag in gaming.

 
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A link claiming there’s no established definition doesn’t make it so. Sure, obviously not everyone agrees on the definition (this thread is living proof). That doesn’t make it schrodinger’s definition. The phrase has an accepted meaning going back to the days of MUDs. The fact that some people have perverted that phrase to mean “anything that isn’t totally free in every way” doesn’t change that accepted meaning.

If you just call every microtransaction game pay to win, then pay to win means the same thing as free to play. At that point it’s just a meaningless namecalling pejorative.

 
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Originally posted by MaistlinRajere:

A question to all of you whiny little children.

Please explain how Pay-to-Win is bad. Life is pay to win. Go ahead and whine about that, why don’tcha? Are you gonna quit life because rich people have an advantage? Stop being little turdmonkeys and deal with the fact that maybe yes, it is perfectly fair that if you pay, you will get benefits that non-payers don’t.

The games that I like do not resemble my life in any way, thank god. I don’t know about you, but I play games to escape from life. And yeah, I do dislike Pay-to-Win games. I prefer to see how well I can do in a game without loading the dice, or playing against others who have loaded dice.
You can like them if you want though, I don’t mind. Just remember that others may disagree with you—that’s life.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

P2W has a specific, established meaning going back a good number of years. The term predates this website. Only on Kongregate do people think any non-cosmetic microtransaction makes a game P2W.

Then it’s a good thing we’re on Kongregate because that must mean I have the right definition :D

Your definition has a problem, though. You see, in MMOs you don’t win the entire game. There is no win condition for an MMO, only progression and advancement. So according to that logic, pay to win doesn’t exist at all, in which case Kong has invented the term and can invent the definition as well.

As for everything else you said, well, I guess you’re right – being insulting and patronizing and telling me (repeatedly) that I can’t read definitely proved how constructive and polite you are and how you accept criticism. I stand corrected xD