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Kongregate players need to learn what Pay-To-Win means page 2 (locked)

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You can win fights against other players in an MMO. That’s generally what P2W refers to. You kind of already brought that up yourself, in fact.

I like how you’ve abandoned trying to make any kind of actual point. Sorry you don’t like being told to read things all the way before you reply to them. Keep on truckin’.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

You can win fights against other players in an MMO. That’s generally what P2W refers to.

Yeah. That was my definition of pay-to-win – being able to buy an advantage in those fights, that means you win against others with similar skill to yourself.

Perhaps one of us isn’t reading other peoples’ posts after all. I don’t think it’s me, though xD

 
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So can MMOs be pay to win or not? You just said you can’t win anything in MMOs so they can’t be pay to win.

Your definition was also a hilarious pile of garbage because you didn’t consider that if the person purchasing gear gets the same gear you can get… they don’t actually have an advantage in the fight, now do they?

Much like every other salient point, you refused to respond to that and kept trying to invent some pattern of me being randomly insulting to people by stalking my profile and misunderstanding my posts.

Please, dodge the point again and post some more emoticons. You are obviously a master of debate.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

So can MMOs be pay to win or not? You just said you can’t win anything in MMOs so they can’t be pay to win.

Your definition was also a hilarious pile of garbage because you didn’t consider that if the person purchasing gear gets the same gear you can get… they don’t actually have an advantage in the fight, now do they?

Much like every other salient point, you refused to respond to that and kept trying to invent some pattern of me being randomly insulting to people by stalking my profile and misunderstanding my posts.

Please, dodge the point again and post some more emoticons. You are obviously a master of debate.

Uhhhh……. I said that MMOs don’t have an overall win condition, not that you can’t win individual battles. I assumed you didn’t need a definition of a win condition in a game, but it refers to the possible states at which point the game is over and you’ve completed it, as opposed to the game ending because you lost.

The point of my definition was that you have to pay for the new gear, otherwise the other person wins. You alluded to that yourself – like you said, my advantage from buying the gear is negated if everyone else buys it as well. In that example, if you both have to pay for the gear, clearly you need to pay to win. That’s the problem people have with pay to win games in the first place, if one person buys the new gear, you need to buy it too to be able to keep up wit them

 
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Did you just completely forget posting this?

Your definition has a problem, though. You see, in MMOs you don’t win the entire game. There is no win condition for an MMO, only progression and advancement. So according to that logic, pay to win doesn’t exist at all, in which case Kong has invented the term and can invent the definition as well.

Not only can MMOs not be P2W, Kongregate INVENTED the term P2W?

Then you turn around and say MMOs can be P2W, claim you never said they couldn’t and then go off on some tirade about how gear is apparently evil since you didn’t bother making a distinction about how you can/can’t buy the gear. Are all rpgs p2w because you need good gear to be competitive? lol. I hope for your sake you’re just trolling at this point.

In case you’re not, here’s my final attempt to knock some sense into your head: If I can buy the gear with in-game money or real-world money, the game isn’t pay to win because paying real money confers no actual advantage. If I CAN’T buy the gear with in-game money, but I can buy it with real-world money and it’s significantly better than what I can get without spending money… that’s P2W. It’s a very simple, concrete and established distinction.

 
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Considering how important reading comprehension is to you I’m sure you can’t be misunderstanding my posts, so I’ll assume that you’re intentionally trying to take them out of context and tie the discussion up in knots. That’s a pretty dumb way to try to debate something, so I won’t bother arguing those points.

Most pay to win games allow you to get premium gear if you play long enough. That doesn’t stop it being significantly better for the player if they spend real money – the point is to make players want to spend the money as a shortcut. Perhaps I can spend 250 hours playing the game to buy the Stick of Whacky+50, but it’s no use to me if someone else spent $5 to unlock it instantly, whacked me with it, and left already. My options in that scenario are that they’re either paying to win against me, or I pay as well to negate their advantage. Personally, I don’t find either choice to be in my best interest, and so I’ll consider the game pay to win.

 
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No, no… see, here, let me quote what you said again:

Your definition has a problem, though. You see, in MMOs you don’t win the entire game. There is no win condition for an MMO, only progression and advancement. So according to that logic, pay to win doesn’t exist at all, in which case Kong has invented the term and can invent the definition as well.

That up there? You tried to use those exact words as an argument. Nothing is taken out of context. That is what you said word for word. Unlike you, I don’t falsely accuse people of things without quotes or citations. You tried to claim P2W doesn’t exist in MMOs at all and Kongregate invented the term P2W. This is not meaningless or tangential, becaaaause…

You then turned around and contradicted yourself in your very next post. I’m sorry you don’t like your own arguments being used against you, but perhaps you should be a bit more careful about what you say in the first place?

I’m also pretty sure there are exactly zero games with unrestricted pvp and unrestricted cash item buying. So nice strawman there. Enjoy talking to the walls, because you’ve really done nothing but prove the point of this thread: most players on Kongregate have a meaningless and pejorative definition for “P2W” that just means “any game with micropurchases that aren’t 100% cosmetic”.

I’m done responding to someone who contradicts themselves repeatedly, makes stuff up and denies it. You aren’t worth talking to.

 
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I believe you missed the words “according to that logic”, even though you quoted them. That phrase should serve as an indication that the point being presented was hypothetical. If not, again, it’s not my reading comprehension that’s at fault here.

Originally posted by delosford:

I’m also pretty sure there are exactly zero games with unrestricted pvp and unrestricted cash item buying. So nice strawman there. Enjoy talking to the walls, because you’ve really done nothing but prove the point of this thread: most players on Kongregate have a meaningless and pejorative definition for “P2W” that just means “any game with micropurchases that aren’t 100% cosmetic”.

And? Maybe that is what pay to win means to most people. Clearly if you’re a developer with premium items in your game you’re less likely going to share that opinion, but if the term is broadly understood as meaning that, perhaps that is what it means.

Why are you so against people having a different opinion on it to yourself anyway?

 
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Ah yes, the ultimate cop out of the logically defeated: claim it’s just a matter of opinion. Pretend that words have no meaning! It’s all subjective! Solipsism ahoy!

Goodnight, troll. Enjoy posting self-contradictory drivel, saying you didn’t, and then claiming you did but it was ‘hypothetical’ afterwards. lol.

edit: oh and thanks again for proving the point of the thread title. You did a bang-up job.

 
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I’d like to thank everyone in this thread for causing me to try and find a definition for pay-to-win and I came across the second entry in Urban Dictionary:

2. pay-to-win: “The sad truth of the free-to-play business model.”

 
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The first definition that’s twice as highly rated, for reference:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

 
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Originally posted by delosford:

Ah yes, the ultimate cop out of the logically defeated: claim it’s just a matter of opinion. Pretend that words have no meaning! It’s all subjective! Solipsism ahoy!

Goodnight, troll. Enjoy posting self-contradictory drivel, saying you didn’t, and then claiming you did but it was ‘hypothetical’ afterwards. lol.

Well, in a thread about peoples’ opinion on something, it seems pretty logical that it would be a matter of opinion xD

I mean, I don’t mind backing up and justifying my opinion, but I can’t say this particular point is important enough to me to be raging and screaming and calling people ignorant or trolls over.

As for me being a troll – well, people say that the ones resorting to insults in a debate are the ones who know they lost. I graciously accept your concession.

 
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“People say”

Now you’re descending into FoxNewsisms?

How ADORABLE!

How about… he who completely contradicts his own argument already lost the debate on the first page? Yeah, that one’s actually true. Troll harder.

 
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Nah. my opinion has been consistent through the whole thread. I’m aware not everyone shares my opinion, but I don;‘t think anyone else has suggested I’ve been inconsistent on it.

Here’s a recap anyway: I consider pay-to-win to be anything that gives the paying player an advantage of some sort in a game. I haven’t said anything to the contrary. Does that go against what you think the definition is? TOO BAD! xD

That’s the fun of having a different opinion, you see, I don’t have to agree with you however much you rage about it.

 
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Ima just quote you from here on out

Personally, I consider pay-to-win to be anything where you buy an ingame advantage (as opposed to cosmetic items) anyway. Why? Because if I’m going head to head with an equally skilled player, whichever one of us has the paid advantage is the one that’s going to win. It might not allow me to beat the top tier of players, but I’m still paying to beat someone else.

Your definition has a problem, though. You see, in MMOs you don’t win the entire game. There is no win condition for an MMO, only progression and advancement. So according to that logic, pay to win doesn’t exist at all, in which case Kong has invented the term and can invent the definition as well.

Yeah. That was my definition of pay-to-win – being able to buy an advantage in those fights, that means you win against others with similar skill to yourself.

A flip flop flip a flop flip!

edit: oh and just a hint… definitions of words aren’t really a matter of personal opinion. If they were, cohesive language couldn’t exist.

 
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Yeah, that’s three quotes all saying the same thing…

 
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So first you explain how MMOs have win conditions (individual fights, especially PvP), but then go on to claim they don’t have any so P2W doesn’t exist and Kongregate invented the term?

This means you’re currently trying to claim that Kongregate invented the term P2W?

 
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Nope. I think we’ve been over this. Winning the entire game and winning smaller aspects of it, for example a duel, are two different things.

That was in reply to your claim that pay to win refers to paying to win the entire game – here it is quoted again for you:

Originally posted by delosford:

Pay to WIN. Paying money wins you the game. Get it?


My reply was on the basis that you can’t win an MMO – there is no game ending win condition. You can, however, win within certain aspects of it, such as player duels.

Something that gives you an advantage within those elements of the game can still be defined as a pay to win item, because you’re paying for something that helps you win at an aspect of the game.

Regardless of whether the item can be attained by grinding or not, the fact that someone can buy it instantly and have an immediate advantage over players who didn’t still means they’re paying to win. It may be only on a temporary basis, it doesn’t matter.

And no, I’m afraid I wasn’t claiming Kong invented the term – again, I’d like to suggest you reread that particular post, because you keep bringing it up but it’s clear you didn’t actually understand it.

 
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So because you can’t win an MMO, MMOs can’t be pay to win, right?

oh but wait, MMOs often meet this definition when free to play:

Personally, I consider pay-to-win to be anything where you buy an ingame advantage (as opposed to cosmetic items) anyway. Why? Because if I’m going head to head with an equally skilled player, whichever one of us has the paid advantage is the one that’s going to win. It might not allow me to beat the top tier of players, but I’m still paying to beat someone else.

Yeah, no contradiction there. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

See, you try to quibble about the meaning of “win” in one post, then go and immediately contradict yourself and think your original point somehow stands. It’s kind of funny.

 
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It looks like you’re getting mixed up between my definition of pay to win and your own. Since I consider pay to win to refer to anything where you can buy an advantage, then yes, MMOs can be pay to win.

 
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Le sigh. He still doesn’t get it. He can’t even be bothered to read his own posts!

Because if I’m going head to head with an equally skilled player, whichever one of us has the paid advantage is the one that’s going to win.

And then you later tried to claim win means “win the whole game” and that’s why my definition “doesn’t work”.

Getting it yet?

 
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Actually, you were the one claiming it referred to winning the whole game:

Originally posted by delosford:

Pay to WIN. Paying money wins you the game. Get it?

 
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I’m sorry, I must have missed the word “whole” in that quote. Could you point it out to me?

Oh, it’s not there?

There you go making shit up again. Color me shocked!

You also seem to have forgotten the other half of your contradiction. Let me jog your memory:

Your definition has a problem, though. You see, in MMOs you don’t win the entire game. There is no win condition for an MMO, only progression and advancement. So according to that logic, pay to win doesn’t exist at all, in which case Kong has invented the term and can invent the definition as well.

Ah, so not only do we not win the entire game, but MMOs have NO WIN CONDITION AT ALL. Just progression!

Yeah. That was my definition of pay-to-win – being able to buy an advantage in those fights, that means you win against others with similar skill to yourself.

Because if I’m going head to head with an equally skilled player, whichever one of us has the paid advantage is the one that’s going to win.

Nah. No win conditions in MMOs. That’s crazy talk.

 
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I’m not sure what you have a problem with here. MMOs don’t have an end, in most (all?) cases. You progress through the game, you play the endgame if you like, but you never win the game.

 
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Guys, I think it’s best you both stop arguing. You both have different opinions, and believe in what you say. That’s cool. Arguing about who’s right, isn’t so cool. Neither is resorting to insults, or getting butthurt over this.

It makes you both look foolish, for needing to argue over something so trivial. People have different opinions on things, that’s life. Not everyone will agree with you.