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PETITION: stop badging MMOs where you have to wait page 2

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Originally posted by eirak:
Originally posted by HolyLasagna:

Just as many of them rate the game 1 (or some other number) as ones who rate the game 5.

I doubt it, simply because empathy is inherent to our nature. Between helping out an unknown Developer with his game and destroying his hopes without justification, I doubt there are many people who would do the latter.

actually spending some time on comments of some games here im starting to believe it is entirely opposite of what you just wrote example one would be grammer nazi’s who when lozeing an argument correct your grammer and then the community just accepts that as an argument just as valid as the one you just made and start supporting them

As a Grammar Nazi, this sentence hurt my brain.

 
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A potential solution to speed game raters (and invalid game ratings in many cases) is to simply hide the Ratings buttons for 2 minutes. This would also mean a game wouldn’t show up in your recently played unless it had been played for 2 minutes.

I would have picked 5 minutes, but some games can be determined to be crap within 2 minutes (10 seconds in some cases, but perhaps those games could be flagged). At any rate, it should not be possible to 5/5 a game within 2 minutes (let alone 5 minutes).

A positive side effect of this is that it would eliminate some invalid gameplays in the # of gameplays count (I believe Kong does not do much in gameplay count validation)

 
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Originally posted by HolyLasagna:

Just as many of them rate the game 1 (or some other number) as ones who rate the game 5.

I doubt it, simply because empathy is inherent to our nature. Between helping out an unknown Developer with his game and destroying his hopes without justification, I doubt there are many people who would do the latter.

You’re new to the internet, aren’t you? :P

In all seriousness, in addition to Kong’s tendency to show new games primarily to those who consistently rate a genre highly causing an insular bubble of bloated ratings before it gets exposed (happens for all genres, but most severely with MMOs by far — you can almost always verify it by checking plays/ratings the moment they get badged versus a week or two after), MMOs have been known to bribe players and sockpuppet for high ratings, and I can name at least one where a huge number of valid ratings vanished overnight and their score jumped upward (Miscrits).

There are douchebags who rate 1 for everything, and hugboxes that rate 5 for everything because yay developers! but they’re both kinda fringe and in practice tend to balance each other out. Most games submitted to the site tend to fall into the 2-4 area, and not even most of the stuff in Hot New Games breaks 4.

 
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Originally posted by racefan12:

I don’t understand why people assume that everyone who just plays a game without rating it (these people do exist, but are not nearly as numerous as you think) rates a game 5. Just as many of them rate the game 1 (or some other number) as ones who rate the game 5.

Because when you rate a game a 1/5, people are more likely to take notice. If you do it without comment, you get fingered as a troller, and if you take the time to explain why a game deserved the 1/5 you gave it, the developers (or at least a couple of butt-monkeys working on their behalf) hound you for it.

And trust me, I know that from experience. It never ceases to amaze me how often the publisher of a game that has been played by tens of thousands of people in a single day will get completely bent out of shape to the point of obsession because one person rated their game poorly.

But back on MMOs, Pykrete pretty much hit the nail on the head. It’s not because we dislike MMOs as games, but rather because of the business model they have come to represent: A shallow ploy to generate the maximum income out of the smallest amount of effort.

More often than not, the model is to have the game progress at a snail’s pace so that players will be encouraged to spend real money on “premium” items to bypass the process. The next step is to create PvP quests or some kind of conquest mechanic to encourage premium players to bully the casual gamers, forcing them to either upgrade to premium service in turn to stay competitive or quit.

This, of course, boils down gameplay solely to gamers with premium membership, and in turn encourages them to spend even more cash to stay ahead of the rest of the cash-paying players.

If this business model sounds familiar, it should. It’s more or less the same con from “The Sneetches” (and yes, I am old enough to remember that).

I think if Kongregate should have any standard, any standard at all, it should be not to host games that have no ambition whatsoever except to take the money and run.

 
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Developers (or anyone else) have no way of knowing who rates a game 1/5 (assuming it is done without comment). I have rated literally hundreds of games 1/5, and have never received any comments about my ratings.

And the reason why MMOs have artificially slowed gameplay? It’s not to get people to pay money, it’s to prevent some people from leveling up too fast because they can afford to spend hours at a time on a game while others can’t. At least at the start of the game, the developers want everyone to be at or near the same level as possible to increase competition, which creates more interest and enthusiasm for the game.


In the future, though, I think a reasonable compromise would be to allow a separate server for people who only want to play the MMO for badges, where players are shielded from premium players who are clearly above their level. Players in this server would be capped at a certain level (i.e. when they meet the badge requirements) so as not to be able to impede the progress of other badge-hunters. At the same time, everyone else not playing the game for badges can continue to interact with everyone else as they did before the game got badges (because the existing playerbase of an MMO is also frustrated when the MMO gets badged, as that means they get a sudden influx of new players that greatly disrupts the balance of the game).

 
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Originally posted by racefan12:

And the reason why MMOs have artificially slowed gameplay? It’s not to get people to pay money, it’s to prevent some people from leveling up too fast because they can afford to spend hours at a time on a game while others can’t. At least at the start of the game, the developers want everyone to be at or near the same level as possible to increase competition, which creates more interest and enthusiasm for the game.



This is not true. It’s primarily because forcing people to stop playing a game early makes them more likely to play it again later. The fact that some people will pay to skip the wait is a bonus. The balance of the game rarely figures into it since these MMOs rely on having a large influx of people early on anyway.
 
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Just because i see that (apparently) nobody though of this: Badges that are based on Player vs Player gameplay.
Some games won’t be in the spotlight forever (and some weren’t in it in first place), so eventually will play them for the sake of doing it become fewer, and the only interest resides in the badges. (e.g. Dinowaurs)
Also, competitive balance (a lvl. 1 player vs a lvl.30 player that does like the game).

 
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Originally posted by EzekielMaple:

Just because i see that (apparently) nobody though of this: Badges that are based on Player vs Player gameplay.
Some games won’t be in the spotlight forever (and some weren’t in it in first place), so eventually will play them for the sake of doing it become fewer, and the only interest resides in the badges. (e.g. Dinowaurs)
Also, competitive balance (a lvl. 1 player vs a lvl.30 player that does like the game).

I’m not trying to be rude with this… but what does that have to do with games with waiting time or MMOs? And yes, in any kind of pvp the person who loves the game will beat out the person who is just in it for the badges, unless that person is willing to drop some cash (if it’s that sort of game). As for games that require player interaction like that which are no longer popular, you can always grab a friend and have them play with you. I can’t think of a single badged game that requires pvp which you can’t earn with just a friend.

 
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^Pvp is a game mode in many MMOs, mostly FPS and RPG.

 
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In the future, though, I think a reasonable compromise would be to allow a separate server for people who only want to play the MMO for badges, where players are shielded from premium players who are clearly above their level. Players in this server would be capped at a certain level (i.e. when they meet the badge requirements) so as not to be able to impede the progress of other badge-hunters. At the same time, everyone else not playing the game for badges can continue to interact with everyone else as they did before the game got badges (because the existing playerbase of an MMO is also frustrated when the MMO gets badged, as that means they get a sudden influx of new players that greatly disrupts the balance of the game).

Okay, I was not gonna post again, but I am curious.

This idea would not work because some people will go into an MMO fully intending to just get the badge and leave. I had every intention of just getting the one Wartune badge, and leaving. However, I ended up staying because the game is fun. If your idea went into place, then almost nobody will use this server because..why limit yourself? The game is the same on any server. An inactive player is not harming anyone in an MMO. They just become guildless and forgotten.

Unless you plan to pay for their extra server yourself, I do not see how this is a reasonable suggestion. Why would any dev in their right mind pay an entire server of players who wont spend a dime? If you have no intention of staying after the badge, they do not really care if you stay, you are worth very little to them. Why would they pay for you to play the game?

As far as balance..as someone who has played many MMOs long after being badged, I have only one comment on it “disrupting the balance of the game”…no such thing exists in a well made MMO. If it actually is a problem, then the game likely was terrible anyway if something so tiny could wreck it. Badge hunters are quickly forgotten about it if the game was given a relatively easy badge.

also, fail copy/paste. this was @racefan.

 
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Originally posted by racefan12:

And the reason why MMOs have artificially slowed gameplay? It’s not to get people to pay money, it’s to prevent some people from leveling up too fast because they can afford to spend hours at a time on a game while others can’t. At least at the start of the game, the developers want everyone to be at or near the same level as possible to increase competition, which creates more interest and enthusiasm for the game.

If that was their aim, they wouldn’t be nagging you to pay overpriced premium currency to circumvent it — they’d just lock you out of action and tell you to go outside and get sunlight. Kingdom of Loathing does that, for instance. Pre-Activision, World of Warcraft’s resting mechanic was implemented to help people who weren’t playing constantly to stay competitive with those who did by leveling faster if you weren’t playing recently. And so on.

Let’s not fool ourselves here. The energy system, as implemented, is there for the express purpose of being an obstructive mechanic that they can then charge to let you around.

 
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they’d just lock you out of action and tell you to go outside and get sunlight.

That is what they’re doing—the option is just available for people who would rather foolishly pay real money to keep playing instead of heeding that advice.

“A fool and his money are soon parted”—that’s not manipulation, that’s common sense.

 
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@bobby71983: Hah, I was in the same position. I just intended to play Wartune for the badges, but I quickly became so obsessed with the game that I had to force myself to give it up altogether since it was starting to consume my life =P

@racefan12: That’s just the thing though, that’s precisely what manipulation is. They are manipulating “fools” to spend their “money”, in your terms. Just because it’s not something you would do, and think is foolish, doesn’t make it any less manipulative.

 
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i fucking agree.those waiting games are shit, and should NEVER be badged. go badge normal games or i will quit kong.

 
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Originally posted by Rolby:

i fucking agree.those waiting games are shit, and should NEVER be badged. go badge normal games or i will quit kong.

Bye.

 
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Originally posted by EzekielMaple:

Just because i see that (apparently) nobody though of this: Badges that are based on Player vs Player gameplay.
Some games won’t be in the spotlight forever (and some weren’t in it in first place), so eventually will play them for the sake of doing it become fewer, and the only interest resides in the badges. (e.g. Dinowaurs)
Also, competitive balance (a lvl. 1 player vs a lvl.30 player that does like the game).

Ugh. Yes, I second this. Games with PvP, especially PvP-only games like Vorp and TDP4, largely operate the same con as MMOs, IE: Make the game free to play, but progression so slow and brutal that the only way to even have a prayer against the money-players is to pay for content too.

TDP4, for example, has a level system, which is sold on the promise of preventing newcomers from having to fight couch commandos, but instead ensures that premium players retain a massive edge since they have weapons that cannot be obtained at those levels any other way. It’s an extremely shallow ploy that ensures only the mind-numbingly patient and dedicated ever obtain the game’s hard badge without having to pay.

So yeah, I’m all for that. No more badges for PvP games either.

 
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Originally posted by Rolby:

i fucking agree.those waiting games are shit, and should NEVER be badged. go badge normal games or i will quit kong.

 
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I don’t mind MMO’s where we have to wait, but I don’t like it when they get a new badge after eight months. I’ve already forgotten how to play the freaking game and eight months later a new badge? Ugh!

 
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Originally posted by The_Atari_Kid:

I don’t mind MMO’s where we have to wait, but I don’t like it when they get a new badge after eight months. I’ve already forgotten how to play the freaking game and eight months later a new badge? Ugh!

click the attack button

/end of dawn tutorial

(yes, the game is that shallow)

 
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LOL…I saw the new badge…instant hard badge…easiest hard badge yet except for dreamworld.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:
Originally posted by The_Atari_Kid:

I don’t mind MMO’s where we have to wait, but I don’t like it when they get a new badge after eight months. I’ve already forgotten how to play the freaking game and eight months later a new badge? Ugh!

click the attack button

/end of dawn tutorial

(yes, the game is that shallow)

I see your point, but some things in DotD remain a mystery. For example, I have no idea how raid damage is calculated – is it off my character’s attack strength, my army attack strength or some combo of the two. I’m guessing eight months ago when I got the badge I knew that tidbit, but now I don’t. Oh well, clicks attack 20 times

 
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But the Kong puts badges on bad mmos like clash of ninjas. There is literally no agency, meaningful gameplay or interaction to be had from that skinner box. And they don’t stop badging bad MMOs. Kong needs to stop giving MMOs preferential treatment; right now, any MMO with a pay-to-play system gets badged because it’s profitable to do so. MMOs as a category get such a high proportion of their games badged it’s ridiculous.

Also, to MaistlinRajere and Bobby; getting outraged and flippant doesn’t make you right. Just because you’ve seen this before doesn’t make you right. Kongregate needs to make money, but they don’t need to make money in a way that pisses off this much of the userbase. There is such a thing as making money from selling a good product. Bloons TD is probably the only example of this that I can see on Kongregate right now; the Kongregate premium games could have been this too if the rollout had been a tad faster.

 
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Looking through the first few pages of the top-rated MMO games, less than half of them have badges. Looking through the first few pages of the top-rated games from any other genre, nearly all of them are badged. I’d hardly consider that preferential treatment. If anything, this would seem to show that Kong is less likely to badge highly-rated MMOs than highly-rated games of other genres.

 
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Looking through the first few pages of the top-rated MMO games, less than half of them have badges.

Yes, because for some apparent reason, Kong decides to badge lowly-rated energy based MMO instead of actual top MMO from the list.