Kongai: Deterministic and indeterministic rewards

After reading both these forums and sirlins forums, I’ve seen a rant going on by a certain person (no names needed) that there is a problem with Kongregates and Kongais reward system for earning cards. Even though I don’t completely agree with this person he made me ponder on an oddity of the design of the reward system.

First a look at how many reward systems work in other games. I will use Diablo 2 as an example:

Indeterministic rewards: Item drops. Since Diablo 2 is very item-centric the indeterministic reward is items. This makes “hitting the jackpot” a big difference since it really helps you out. This reward is achieved by smashing creatures heads.

Deterministic rewards: XP-Level-Gold-Skill Points-Stat Points. Everything that has to do with the growth of your character itself is deterministic, and can therefore be planned. There is no surprises here. This reward is achieved by smashing creatures heads.

If we now look at kongai and kongregate instead:

Indeterministic rewards: Cards. Chance to win a random card based on the numbers of cards you already got. This reward is achieved by winning matches in Kongai.

Deterministic rewards: Cards. Guaranteed to win a specific card. This reward is achieved by playing challenges in other games on Kongregate.

The thing that feels still good when you play Diablo even though your luck has hit rock bottom is that you still gain the deterministic reward, which has a significant impact on your gameplay. When your luck has hit rock bottom in Kongai you gain nothing. Nothing. You are just sh*t out of luck. “Oh, you wanted to see some improvement to your gameplay experience, then you shouldn’t have even played Kongai, but these other games instead.”

And to summarize what I’m trying to get across: The problem with how you gain cards for Kongai is that for playing the game itself, there is only an indeterminate reward. Players must feel that every win, and I mean every win, takes you one baby step closer to some goal. This really helps people stick to the game, and not quit it. One way of doing this would be to add a third way of gaining cards. Don’t remove the current inditerministic reward, those are necessary for a good game as well. But a new one that is done by playing Kongai and is deterministic. Say every 150 wins you get to pick a new card (only an example!)

In every other game I know of lets me feel lick time spent => some reward. I propose this is introduced for Kongai aswell.

Please don’t fill this thread with more rants screaming “problem problem problem!”, I wish we can have a serious discussion about what I said here.

//Adam Lith

This is a decently reasoned proposal. I would agree that Kongai either needs

A. Everyone on a level playing field from the get-go (which isn’t going to happen for business reasons) or
B. Some deterministic reward system, if only to keep happy the people who don’t consider an increase in ranking worthwhile.

I think it’s pretty short-sighted to say that the only potential reward for winning a game of Kongai is a new card. I don’t consider a game where I didn’t win a card to be a waste of time (if this was the case, why are there so many people with a full set of cards who keep playing?). I know for me, the greatest reward of winning a game is to know that I managed to outwit my opponent, and the reward of having had fun playing. Of course, there are also the more tangible (and deterministic) increases to your level, and ranking if you play ranked matches.

Kongai is really more like chess, than a traditional video game. You don’t play chess so you can unlock more powerful pieces, or because each win makes it easier for you to win future games. Once you have a playable deck (which takes about 20 minutes for someone who hasn’t one a single challenge yet), that’s all you need. Having more cards does mean you can experiment more, but having a whole bunch of cards doesn’t really give you an advantage in a match against someone with six (suitable) cards.

I personally feel that winning cards in Kongai should flat out be removed. It isn’t necessary, challenges are there for that. If you need an award each game to keep playing, then you shouldn’t be playing at all. It should be more about having fun, not winning another card.

I personally feel that winning cards in Kongai should flat out be removed. It isn’t necessary, challenges are there for that. If you need an award each game to keep playing, then you shouldn’t be playing at all. It should be more about having fun, not winning another card.

removing of winning cards in kongai is a bad idea, because all players would have the same cards, think of the players who starts playing after the removing of winning cards they will just rely on challenges and all new players would have almost the same set of cards.

Deathreape98> I think that will make it a lot harder for newer players who don’t have a lot of cards. But to cap it would be okey in my opinion, saying if you have 20 cards or more, you can only gain new cards from weekly challenges. This though, while fair, is not very appealing to players, even new players.

Corin> Yes of course there are other rewards for winning a match, Level, Ranking etc. And personally I don’t see a problem with the way things are now. Things are fair. Random is fair. But I think it would enhance the game, make it more “addicting” if there was some sort of grinding-reward.

Everyone> (just a preemptive side note) Please, no comments such as “then you/him/her/they shouldn’t be playing Kongai at all”. I have seen it in many other threads and I think it’s rude. My primary goal is to get as many players as possible to enjoy Kongai and Kongregate, and these sort of comments can really sting/give a bad outward impression on the mood and feel of the Kongregate community.

crimson, everybody will have the same cards eventually. That’s the fate of a CCG – the old players will all have the same cards as another. But does it really matter? Here’s an example. We both have 6 character cards, which happen to be the same. Although we have the same cards, chances are, our decks are very different. After all, you are allowed to choose which of those cards you want to use.

adam, every new player will have trouble at the start of a CCG. But isn’t that kindof the point of Kongai? Make new players want to play challenges, which will bring revenue to Kong, in order to play Kongai, which will bring more revenue? Face it, Kongai may be a great game, but it’s also a huge money maker for Kong, and they want to keep it that way. Without Kongai, Kong would be much less then it is.

Random is Random….I don’t even think you lazy noobs should get card drops because it takes more effort to get the weekly and now biweekly card challenges, which are a guarantee. Stop complaining the card drops are EXTRA.

what about getting a card every time you level up?

what about getting a card every time you level up?

I’m lvl 13 and it’s gonna take 90 wins before i lvl, it’ll take way to long.

yah but when you start how many wins does it take you to get to level 2. (also you would still have the chance to win a card after every win)

Random is Random….I don’t even think you lazy noobs should get card drops because it takes more effort to get the weekly and now biweekly card challenges, which are a guarantee. Stop complaining the card drops are EXTRA

This isn’t really my fight, but I will take it up anyway. I’m not complaining, this is no big deal for me, in terms of my playing experience when it comes to kongai. But I can understand that people others are complaining about it, and in some terms why. I am simply trying to shed light on something worth discussing, because obviously it isn’t making players happy (which should be one of Kongregates goals).

And your statement that the weekly challenges takes more effort is very wrong. I have done all challenges since February and I have never spent more than 10-15 minuets on a challenge. Compare that to winning ~30 games of kongai…

And lastly, yes, card drops are extra, but the problem is they seem to create a lot of problems, so therefore I’m trying to discuss solution to the problem, and quite frankly, as deathreape98 said, one of the solutions would be to remove it (or cap it).

^ Yeah, I agree. Just remove the random card drops all together, (and, if possible, just remove all the “K” cards that were randomly dropped.)

Just change the reward system to level-based for everyone. Every time a player levels up, he earns a card. No randomness. No gimmick. A consistent card reward for everyone. Everyone gets the exact same number of card for the efforts they put in.

Kongregate should stop worrying about people getting too many cards from leveling up. Seriously, how many players have you seen are over level 20?? Most players are below level 10. Very few players are over level 10.

So, once the system is converted, everyone gets to pick the numbers of cards based on the current level they’re at. Players who have gotten too many cards from random drops won’t get to pick cards based on their levels at first, until after their levels are higher than their number of “K” dropped cards.

And to summarize what I’m trying to get across: The problem with how you gain cards for Kongai is that for playing the game itself, there is only an indeterminate reward. Players must feel that every win, and I mean every win, takes you one baby step closer to some goal. This really helps people stick to the game, and not quit it. One way of doing this would be to add a third way of gaining cards. Don’t remove the current inditerministic reward, those are necessary for a good game as well. But a new one that is done by playing Kongai and is deterministic. Say every 150 wins you get to pick a new card (only an example!)

He summed up everything nicely. Which also explains why I’ve quit playing Kongai because without the indeterministic card drops, that means I just haven’t been getting any rewards for playing it.

There shouldn’t be ANY way to get cards in Kongai. Challenges have a reason, and getting cards in Kongai only takes away from that.

Also, Peg, can you start using the edit button? It’s rather annoying seeing 2+ posts in a row from you every time you want to argue something.

^ The second post wasn’t to argue. It’s to agree (with the OP.)

Your post, on the other hand, was trying to start an argument.

The thing is, when you play Kongai, it’s just like an RPG. You get better after playing more matches; in other words, your “stats advance”. There’s your deterministic award. Life is like a big RPG. We just can’t see the numbers.

Who said I was talking about that? Every single topic I saw you debating in I saw you double post multiple times, and it is really annoying. Is it really that hard to click the “Edit post” button right below your post count? And I don’t care if you’re agreeing with somebody, or telling them to go to hell, you can put it all in one post. Use hr tags to separate the parts if you have to.

And no, I’m not trying to start an argument, I was continuing the debate that this topic was made for. Just because you think that your opinion is right, and you have to express it every single topic, doesn’t mean that you can criticize others for expressing theirs.

The thing is, when you play Kongai, it’s just like an RPG. You get better after playing more matches; in other words, your “stats advance”. There’s your deterministic award. Life is like a big RPG. We just can’t see the numbers.

LOL. Seriously. So why even drop cards at all?

LOL. Seriously. So why even drop cards at all?

Every RPG needs loot.

Every RPG needs loot.

You’ve just contradicted your earlier post.

If I’m not getting cards, where’s my “loot” for playing Kongai?

You’ve just contradicted your earlier post.

If I’m not getting cards, where’s my “loot” for playing Kongai?

Loot is random, like every RPG. Did you even read OP’s post?

Is it really that hard to click the “Edit post” button right below your post count?

In some cases, it is.

As an example: In Sirlin, it’s easier and quicker to just click on the “Quote” button to quote something, instead of clicking on “Quote”, and then highlighting and cutting the quotes, and then clicking on “Edit” on another post, and then pasting it. One quick step versus four.

As for your commands, I’ll think about it.

Loot is random, like every RPG. Did you even read OP’s post?

In Diablo, even if you don’t get loot drop, you get experience, which in turn gives skill points, which in turn helps you build stronger character, which in turn gives better chance at getting better loot. The cycle is self-reinforced.

Of course, even if you don’t get loot drop in Diablo, you get gold that can be directly used to buy better gears (the equivalent of dropped loot.)

In Kongai, if you don’t get card drop, you get nothing. Even if you keep playing and playing, your chances of getting card drop do NOT improve. In fact, in some ways, your chances actually deteriorate.

And NO, my playing skill getting better by itself is NOT enough—ESPECIALLY when everyone else is getting “loots” (cards) and I’m not, for playing the same game and doing the same thing. And that’s why I quit playing.

In Diablo, even if you don’t get loot drop, you get experience, which in turn gives skill points, which in turn helps you build stronger character, which in turn gives better chance at getting better loot. The cycle is self-reinforced.


Of course, even if you don’t get loot drop in Diablo, you get gold that can be directly used to buy better gears (the equivalent of dropped loot.)


In Kongai, if you don’t get card drop, you get nothing. Even if you keep playing and playing, your chances of getting card drop do NOT improve. In fact, in some ways, your chances actually deteriote.

You really aren’t reading my posts, are you?

The thing is, when you play Kongai, it’s just like an RPG. You get better after playing more matches; in other words, your “stats advance”.

The only reason you’re complaining is because we can’t see those stats. But they’re there. Just like when you play chess, you progressively become better at it. Same with tennis, soccer, anything really. You just can’t see the numbers, but you are getting better.