State of Kongai Address

I write this post out of frustration, as I feel there is a major problem with Kongai that isn’t being dealt with. I’m by no means a pro at the game nor do I speak for every single player out there, but the numbers speak for themselves. They are declining. As long as this issue continues to be unresolved, Kongai will slowly continue to lose players. Since a lot of time and effort was put into Kongai, and it is a good game, there is still time to correct these faults. Don’t wait until you release the Pirate Cards to try and revitalize the game. By that point it may be too late.

The Ranking Systems

Currently there are two ranking systems, “ranked games” and “quick match”. Why? Besides making the game confusing to newcomers, they aren’t accurate systems. The “quick match” system records wins and losses and gives players a level rating. Most players play the “quick match”. On a given night you can see 100+ people in quick match and 5 people in ranked matches. The reason quick match is appealing to many people is that obviously its quicker to find an opponent with the number of people playing it, but its also a flawed ranking system. It lets people choose their opponents. That would be like the New England Patriots picking their schedule of all the easiest teams in the NFL and then bragging about going 16-0. If you’re a Level 10 person in Quick Match, there is nothing preventing you from kicking experienced players and only feasting on brand new players.

This leads me to the second problem with the ranking system. If there are numerous people padding their stats by only playing new players, then where does a new player learn to play? Kong Bot? The vague instructions attached to the game? I’m sorry, but that isn’t fair to the new player. They end up getting destroyed vs the stat padder and never login to Kongai again out of frustration. There’s two ways to fix this. The first would be to remove the Quick Match statistics. This would give new players a training ground without putting themselves in a hole with tons of losses while they learn the game. It would also give experienced players incentive to graduate to Ranked Match to build their statistics. The second solution would be you can only play people 3 levels below you in Quick Match.

Also someone could revamp the game instructions. Sure it explains the cards and how to get them, but there should be a step by step set of instructions for new players to get a gist of how the game works as if the reader had no clue what the game was. Recently I’ve seen a few players totally floundering when they get into a game, and I’ll try to give them some help in the Match Chat.

I’m not sure if this is possible, as I know absolutely nothing about making games, but maybe some sort of tutorial could be added to Kong Bot, basically taking a new player by the hand and walking them through a game and what their options are for each turn. Kind of like the talking “Paper Clip” in MS Office.

Another solution would be to provide a link when starting Kongai for the first few times to Esiex3’s Kongai Wiki which is 100X more helpful than the game instructions:

http://kongregate.wikia.com/wiki/Kongai

What should be done is the ranking system and quick play get combined into one – where quick play chooses ‘intelligently’ based on rank.

Well, until the “Kick” feature is removed, Wins and Losses should not be recorded, as it means nothing.

I’m pretty sure the kongai wiki is run by EsieX3.

Yeah thats my bad, I just pulled the name off the page that my browser initially brought me to.

Nice thoughtful post but I think that’s not all that’s wrong with Kongai. I’d agree that newbies need a lot more love, I wouldn’t want to play if I were just starting the way it is right now. It’s like Kongregate is bending over backwards (at the expense of newbies) to take care of all the ‘veterans’ so that it’s ‘fair to them’ and they can be ‘rewarded for joining early’. It’s a strange position, considering the ‘veterans’ need lots of newbies to join the game in order for it to expand/be more fun/have people to play with. If the number of people playing the game is dropping, its easy to see why. The ‘veterans’ will take care of themselves. They won’t leave because Kongai got tweaked in some way they don’t like. Newbies on the other hand come, are unimpressed and go, lost for good.

I agree with you that the game is more focused to a veteran player, meaning those who played the beta and understood how the game was played prior to release. The reasons for that are what I stated, the current system with 2 ranked systems and no casual unranked games doesn’t allow the new player any “training ground” for them to learn the ropes.

I have no problem with card drops. The current system with the cards works perfectly from both a player’s perspective and Kongregate’s perspective. Kongregate releases two cards per week and keeps players coming back to earn the cards, keeping the cards in demand. Players can win cards via games as well, and that keeps players on the site. So Kongregate wins in both ways, the weekly traffic from challenges, and the numerous games played to win cards.

The problem is, if someone picks up the game today, and has no challenge cards and only 3 starter cards and then is thrown into a system where he can end up playing the best player in Kongai, something is wrong. If players were matched up according to rank or given a place where statistics weren’t recorded, there would be a lot more interest in the game with new players. New players wouldn’t be stuck up against greedy stat hungry veterans with 46 cards and hundreds of games under their belt. They’d be playing fellow new players and would learn in a much more gradual manner.

Right now as it stands, its like a mother bird throwing her babies out of the nest. If you don’t fly on the first try, most of the babies splatter on the ground and never try to play the game again. Only a few take the numerous losses on the chin and try to learn the game even though they are playing the wrong level players.

noice metaphor.

oh, and http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/16484

I completely agree with you, Patrick. I think it would be in Kongregate’s best interest to implement those changes you suggested, if at all feasible. Especially quickmatch not counting at all towards your stats. I feel that would encourage newer players to practice to get a feel for the game without being punished. When I jumped into Kongai I started out with a horrible record. Granted, I practiced and stuck with the game and now I have a 2 to 1 win ratio, but I was discouraged at the start, and some of the players probably won’t be as patient as I was. And lets face it, Kongbot is almost useless for practice. It doesn’t behave at all like an actual human player, and barely prepares the newer players for a thinking opponent. A quickmatch without stats not only would encourage newbies to experiment and hone their skills, it would be beneficial to the older players who want to experiment with new decks but don’t want more losses attached to their record.

Misleading title!

More appropriate: New user suggests Kongai ideas.

Nice thoughtful post but I think that’s not all that’s wrong with Kongai. I’d agree that newbies need a lot more love, I wouldn’t want to play if I were just starting the way it is right now. It’s like Kongregate is bending over backwards (at the expense of newbies) to take care of all the ‘veterans’ so that it’s ‘fair to them’ and they can be ‘rewarded for joining early’. It’s a strange position, considering the ‘veterans’ need lots of newbies to join the game in order for it to expand/be more fun/have people to play with. If the number of people playing the game is dropping, its easy to see why. The ‘veterans’ will take care of themselves. They won’t leave because Kongai got tweaked in some way they don’t like. Newbies on the other hand come, are unimpressed and go, lost for good.

This is all completely true. I should also note that “veterans” in this context does not mean the best Kongai players; most of them are on your side. It’s Kongregate veterans that have little to no interest in Kongai itself, but want status symbols, that cause this rift.

Currently there are two ranking systems, “ranked games” and “quick match”. Why?

We wanted people who devoted a lot of time into playing Kongai but didn’t want to be in the competitive Ranked Matches to feel like they were achieving something. That’s why the player levels only count how many matches you’ve won and does not penalize you for how many you’ve lost.

It was modeled after the system used in Halo 3, where you have a skill number and a seperate “rank” which rewards you for games won.

If there are numerous people padding their stats by only playing new players, then where does a new player learn to play?

Kongbot is there for people to practice getting familiar with the cards and how they work, not necessarily for practicing strategy. We thought we were pretty thorough with the combination of instructions and quick tips as a way to learn the game mechanics. But we can’t play the game for the players. We thought about doing a more in-depth strategy suggestion tutorial, but the way Kongai is made, there is no “correct” strategy, as your opponent could have figured out what you’re going to do and counter it. Those are skills you only learn by playing.

The vague instructions attached to the game?

What’s vague about them? I thought they were pretty clear and specific without miring a new player in a huge explosion of complicated text.

They end up getting destroyed vs the stat padder and never login to Kongai again out of frustration.

Unfortunately, people aren’t using Ranked match the way it was intended. It’s there to match people based on similar level, but there’s not currently enough people playing it to be effective.

but maybe some sort of tutorial could be added to Kong Bot, basically taking a new player by the hand and walking them through a game and what their options are for each turn. Kind of like the talking “Paper Clip” in MS Office.

That’s exactly what the Quick Tips are.

PatrickBateman said:

Also someone could revamp the game instructions. Sure it explains the cards and how to get them, but there should be a step by step set of instructions for new players to get a gist of how the game works as if the reader had no clue what the game was. Recently I’ve seen a few players totally floundering when they get into a game, and I’ll try to give them some help in the Match Chat.

You need to be more specific about what is missing from the game instructions. I think it is fine the way it is. It covers all the rules of Kongai without going into minutiae. Sometimes the best way to really understand how to do something is just to do it.

Don’t wait until you release the Pirate Cards to try and revitalize the game.

Wait a second—aren’t the Pirate Cards confirmed to be coming out during the month of September 2008?

Wait a second—aren’t the Pirate Cards confirmed to be coming out during the month of September 2008?

No.

We wanted people who devoted a lot of time into playing Kongai but didn’t want to be in the competitive Ranked Matches to feel like they were achieving something.

Do you still think that the way the game works right now is the correct solution to this problem?

It was modeled after the system used in Halo 3, where you have a skill number and a seperate “rank” which rewards you for games won.

I’ve never played Halo 3. Does it also provide a game mode in which a player’s “rank” can increase if they win, but their skill number is not affected by the outcome?

We thought about doing a more in-depth strategy suggestion tutorial, but the way Kongai is made, there is no “correct” strategy, as your opponent could have figured out what you’re going to do and counter it.

You’re right when you say there isn’t really a “correct” strategy, but there is probably a more effective way to play each character than a lot of newbies think. The wiki (at least, for some of the characters) describes some effective ways of using characters, which some people may have never thought of before.

Unfortunately, people aren’t using Ranked match the way it was intended. It’s there to match people based on similar level, but there’s not currently enough people playing it to be effective.

There’s not enough people because A) there’s not much separation between quickmatch and ranked and B) Ranked isn’t advertised enough to be useful.

Do you still think that the way the game works right now is the correct solution to this problem?

Personally, I don’t like that it’s a numerical rank. I wanted it to be iconic, or given named ranks.

Ranked Match would be a lot more effective if there weren’t 3 displayed ranks (currently there’s lvl, w/l, and Skill rank) and only one which is meaningful. This would make it more obvious what Ranked Match is, and with its benefits more obvious, there will be more people playing it.

Well I’m a newbie to Kongai and can personally back up Bateman’s claims.

For starters, I was completely confused with how to use my cards. I did play the kongbot and eventually started to get the grasp of strategy as far as players and moves go, but as it turned out, that hardly prepared me for battling real players in the quick matches. I kept losing, had one win that, quite honestly, was luck, and haven’t gone back to play it in weeks. I am definitely a good example of a newbie who got turned off rather fast and doesn’t want to go back any time soon.

I thought that just taking some time to win cards in challenges might give me a better edge, but when I returned to the game again: Everyone else had gotten the same new cards as me. How does that help me?….all too often that sort of game can turn into a “tic tac toe” scenari where a player eventually gets lucky in the end.

Kongbot only helped me to understand how to use my cards, but in no way prepared me for actually playing the game as it was intended: against other players. The biggest reason? I was at a huge disadvantage as a new player and there is simply no way to balance the scales for me. Playing a computer is nothing like playing a human being, despite that the bot was designed to mimick how a human might play.

Kongai may and may not benefit a lot from an indepth walkthrough in the game, because as I said…it’s easy to understand some of the basic concepts after some trial and error, but it’s a different monster when you walk into the lions den and you sit and wait hoping a level one shows up, but I usually ended up having to play level 3s-5s, whilst level 10s and so on have no problem attempting to play me. For now I’m fortunate that I can leave the match before it starts, because I’m not going to let a level 10 join me and kick my butt; I’m not dumb: I know my chances of winning are slim to none, and I was rather annoyed that they were attempting to take advantage of me like that.

Rooms might help; Rooms based on experience/level, and you can’t be below a certain level to enter it…in other words no vets “padding” their stats. That might be too complex. Whatever you choose to do, please do something that will make Kongai more inviting to newbies and would give us a fair advantage.

It might seem like a wacky idea at first, but if you can’t just give away free cards and can’t tell vets what to do, then it might work: Maybe consider giving lower rankings a handicap in matches based on the differences in levels between the two players would help; it would definitely discourage vets from trying to take advantage of us, and would encourage players to play someone of their own level. Perhaps such a handicap could be given up until a player reaches a certain level, and players could, if they choose, turn off their handicap if they really want to test themselves.

Hey guys – thanks for the suggestions. We definitely want to find a way to make this more friendly for new players. We’re talking about this internally and we’ll run our ideas by you on this thread.

The only way to meaningfully separate people by rank is to get the best players* into ranked matches. Forced matchmaking by level completely solves the problem if people are willing to participate in it. Making it so that SR doesn’t look like an afterthought is a start. I will again also mention my idea of boosting the card drop rate a small amount (like 2% at the most) in ranked. This won’t seem as unfair to newbies as it did when I first suggested it because of the sliding scale thing; a noob with 4 cards playing QM will still win cards faster than an expert with 33 cards playing ranked.

Forced Random (All) is another idea that has been bandied about a lot and would help the problem, as it allows people who feel handicapped by not having many cards to play games that are guaranteed to be on fair footing.

*or all players, but I think QM has its place and should not be eliminated entirely

MissSpiffey is exactly the type of person I’m talking about. She won the cards via challenges, plays the bot a couple of times, and enters a Quick Match. Since there is no way to force newbies play other newbies or people with similar skill ranks, she ends up playing a Level 10 person. That person smashes her. Maybe she plays a few more times and loses, but when you have a Win-Loss record staring you in the face every time you login, a lot of new players I’m sure don’t want to login and see their record as 0-20 or something ridiculous while they learn the game.

If Quick Match wasn’t a ranked system, veteran players would be playing ranked matches. Ranked matches don’t have a kick button, so players wouldn’t be able to pick their opponents which would give a more meaningful and accurate skill rank in Kongai. Meanwhile new players and people testing their decks could play an unranked Quick Match system and not feel any penalty or shame from losing since nothing was recorded.

As a veteran myself, I choose not to play Ranked because nobody plays it. I don’t want to wait 10 minutes since there is only 6 people a night playing ranked. I play Quick Matches and I host the game, and play anyone who joins. I don’t kick anyone to try and get an easier opponent. Usually if a new player joins my game, I’ll try to give them step by step instructions on how to play or point them to the Wiki that explains the cards in depth and the matchups. There are others who do the same, but the majority of people just use new players as status boosting to get their records up.

If the system remains the way it is currently, new players won’t play Kongai. And while there are numerous people who do collect the cards on a weekly basis which helps Kongregate’s revenue, many of those people don’t play Kongai at all. I’m sure part of the marketing strategy behind Kongai was to get peak traffic to the site twice a week to earn the cards. Then you want that traffic to continue by those people playing Kongai with the cards in an attempt to win more cards. Personally I know a lot of people who just collect the cards like badges, but do not play Kongai at all because of the reasons stated above. What I’m suggesting here not only helps the new player, but in the long run will also help Kongregate create more traffic to the site/game.

Thanks for reading jimgreer, hopefully this topic sheds some light on Kongai to the staff who may not be playing it as much and haven’t noticed the problems from a player’s perspective.

The best thing that newbies can do to improve is to forget about their Quickmatch record. For reasons already discussed, it is a poor indication of skill anyway. Then, they should play quickmatches against any opponent regardless of level. Even though they may lose, they should think about what their mistakes were and how they could improve next time, either by adjusting their deck or strategy. This is how I became a good Kongai player, not because I was able to get in a few games before everyone else at the end of the beta phase. If people want to complain that they are playing this to have fun and not to think so much, then there are plenty of other games on the site that will suit them better.

Veterans who try to pad their stats by playing only low-level opponents will not improve. In fact, they may get worse, as they develop habits centered around countering noob moves. The players who seek opponents of their level or higher are the ones who stand to learn something from each match and improve.

Once Kongai’s instructions and single player mode have helped a player to understand the mechanics of the game, I believe that it has done its job. Part of the fun of Kongai is developing your own strategies rather than having them spoonfed to you. When I buy a chess board, I hope it comes with a few pages outlining the rules. What I don’t want is the “Encyclopedia of Chess Openings”. The only way for a player like MissSpiffey to become prepared to play against other players is to play other players. I understand that it is frustrating to lose game after game, but I think that with the proper mindset, it doesn’t take many losses until you learn from your mistakes and evolve to be a competent player. (I think that while taking away Quickmatch stats helps a little, it still doesn’t change the fact that a player is losing game after game and will feel frustrated. The only way to solve this, I think, is to address the frustration directly.)

I support the idea of rooms though, similar to those used in Yahoo Games. Players can be assigned to a room out of several (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, for example), based on their record/rank. This will prevent veterans from purposely going into the beginner room to whomp on newbies. Under Kongai’s current setup however, I have to put in a defense for the veterans who play against newbies. Like PatrickBateman, I play everyone who wants to play me, whether their level is higher or lower than mine. So, please do not automatically assume that just because a L10 player doesn’t kick you out of your game, he is trying to take advantage of you.

By the way, why are the forums chopping off the right side of our posts?

Obviously if someone wants to get good and learn the game they should forget about the statistics. But its hard to do that when you login each day and see your terrible statistics on the title screen.

I agree that veterans who play low level opponents won’t improve, but new players who have no clue how to play won’t learn anything by dying in 2 seconds to someone who Chi Blasts them to death and kills them in 4 turns. If a veteran player has to instruct a newbie step by step on how to play in game, then something is wrong with the matchup system and the instructions. Even in Halo, you are matched up against similar leveled players. That isn’t the case in this game.

What triggered me to make this post was a few incidents last night. I was playing on an alternate account in which I only play “Random All Cards” on. That account is Level 5 on Quick Match. I was booted twice by a Level 12 Person. I watched the Lobby Screen as that person booted two other people, a Level 6 and a Level 9 person, but allowed a Level 2 person who had won 10 games to play him. Something is wrong with the system when you see behavior like this.

Another incident was when I was playing against someone who was 0-4. He had no clue how to play and I took the time walked him through a game and he added me to his friends list. He’s now 14-12 and has won 3 “K” cards. The fact that someone took the time to show him how to play even though he had done the Kong Bot challenge and read the instructions was all this guy needed to put him in the right direction. Had I smashed him in 2 seconds and let him be 0-5 he’d probably be giving up right now. Instead he appears to be someone who is picking up the game after what was probably a demoralizing and rocky start. Sure I feel like I accomplished something by helping someone enjoy the game, but for each person that I help, dozens of potential players are lost.