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MMOs Are Ruining Kongregate... page 10

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Yeah. I think MMO should give it a rest. I mean, is there any MMO that doesn’t have premium content? This is just a replay of when gaming became popular, companies were churning out awful games like there’s no tomorrow. I think Kong should give MMO a miss.

 
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“Adding on: It’s not that we are pushing MMOs on users, there has been a seasonal dip in big single player games. This isn’t just on Kongregate either, but all across the industry.”

The feature box would indicate that it’s a bloody 7/8 ratio. Somehow I doubt this is the case.

“Not everyone has money to spend on games. The majority of people who complain are people who consider premium content wasteful.”

Most notably, if you’re going to have premium content you have to keep in mind your competition spans the entire gaming industry. Even in the least ridiculous circumstances, for the same price of buying 1 or 2 minor perks in a crappy MMO, I can get entire professional-quality games on Steam or even in a brick-and-mortar store.

For the more egregious cases…wow. Backyard Monsters charges almost as much for a one-time upgrade to walls that will usually be bypassed as would cost me for a new DS game. And while I enjoyed the more reasonably-balanced parts of Remnants of Skystone, the premium content would have cost more than I paid for the DS itself. That’s insane.

 
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Originally posted by Pykrete:
“Adding on: It’s not that we are pushing MMOs on users, there has been a seasonal dip in big single player games. This isn’t just on Kongregate either, but all across the industry.”

The feature box would indicate that it’s a bloody 7/8 ratio. Somehow I doubt this is the case.

“Not everyone has money to spend on games. The majority of people who complain are people who consider premium content wasteful.”

Most notably, if you’re going to have premium content you have to keep in mind your competition spans the entire gaming industry. Even in the least ridiculous circumstances, for the same price of buying 1 or 2 minor perks in a crappy MMO, I can get entire professional-quality games on Steam or even in a brick-and-mortar store.

For the more egregious cases…wow. Backyard Monsters charges almost as much for a one-time upgrade to walls that will usually be bypassed as would cost me for a new DS game. And while I enjoyed the more reasonably-balanced parts of Remnants of Skystone, the premium content would have cost more than I paid for the DS itself. That’s insane.

They’re looking for that 0.01% of the playerbase that is a Nigerian prince with money burning a hole in his pocket.

That’s another thing about these games. They encourage spending wars. To be the best, you simply have to waste more money than the other people.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:

As someone who has played almost ever MMO on kong for at least long enough to give a fair opinion of it, I can say that VERY FEW of the most recent games are “pay to win”.

Most of the biggest culprits are 2+ years old. The games by 5thplanetgames(Clash/Dawn of the Dragons, and Legacy of heroes) are probably the only true current “pay-to-win” MMOs on Kong at this time. You literally cannot compete in those games if you don’t spend. There is a wall that is impassable. You can still play it and enjoy it for free, but you will never compete for the top ranks.

In every other MMO I have played that was released in the last couple years, a free player could compete. The fact that you get options to pay for stuff thrown in your face all the time does not equal pay to win. You can usually pay $5-$10 for convenience, which is perfectly acceptable. I have given $5-$10 to many MMO’s on this site(5 different ones) because it was worth the cost.

I am not really sure how credible and fair your post is after reading that line. Yes what you said is indeed logical, however in reality almost 100% of the time things bend towards p2w(And in the few games I saw, the gap is HUGE. Impassable as you call it).

Seriously name me a game that only sell convenience and refrain from selling power.

 
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Originally posted by ohnonooh:
Originally posted by bobby71983:

As someone who has played almost ever MMO on kong for at least long enough to give a fair opinion of it, I can say that VERY FEW of the most recent games are “pay to win”.

Most of the biggest culprits are 2+ years old. The games by 5thplanetgames(Clash/Dawn of the Dragons, and Legacy of heroes) are probably the only true current “pay-to-win” MMOs on Kong at this time. You literally cannot compete in those games if you don’t spend. There is a wall that is impassable. You can still play it and enjoy it for free, but you will never compete for the top ranks.

In every other MMO I have played that was released in the last couple years, a free player could compete. The fact that you get options to pay for stuff thrown in your face all the time does not equal pay to win. You can usually pay $5-$10 for convenience, which is perfectly acceptable. I have given $5-$10 to many MMO’s on this site(5 different ones) because it was worth the cost.

I am not really sure how credible and fair your post is after reading that line. Yes what you said is indeed logical, however in reality almost 100% of the time things bend towards p2w(And in the few games I saw, the gap is HUGE. Impassable as you call it).

Seriously name me a game that only sell convenience and refrain from selling power.

I don’t care if I have this “credibility” thing. Most people who whine about it do not play the games in question long enough to have a fair understanding of it(it’s easy to tell). You can of course buy power if you want, but it’s often so expensive that it’s only there for people with a lot of spare money. In most games, you have to put so much money in to get a clear advantage over everyone. We are talking $300-$400+. Lower than that is generally just for conveinience.

The point is that every MMO on this site is completely playable and enjoyable for free.

 
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The problem isn’t MMOs

Its that Kong keeps giving them badges.

I mean, look at Time World.

Time World’s “gameplay” is navigating menus and waiting for things to upgrade. There is no strategy outside of “BIGGEST NUMBER WINS

 
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Originally posted by Royal_CROWn:

The problem isn’t MMOs

Its that Kong keeps giving them badges.

I mean, look at Time World.

Time World’s “gameplay” is navigating menus and waiting for things to upgrade. There is no strategy outside of “BIGGEST NUMBER WINS

This user has obviously not played Time World for longer than 3 days.

Also, the problem isn’t badges. Plenty of unoriginal single player games get badged all the time. Why no outcry over those? Why the double standard?

 
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(to above) Single player games don’t have premium content, with the exception of Bezerker studios. In a single player game, the whole point is to play, level up, grind and work hard to win. Some, perhaps most, multiplayer games either throw these promotions in your face, the game gets boring without paying or it really is pay to win. I played time world, and it wasn’t that bad. Your energy replenished when you leveled up, but it still had energy and the ability to replenish energy by paying kreds. Dev’s may claim energy is there to prevent constant grinding and people becoming stronger faster, but it’s really a way of them lining their pockets.
Royal_CROWn is correct, time world’s combat is really about best level wins, if abilities aren’t used. If they are used, it becomes easy. bobby, what you don’t seem to grasp is we don’t have any money to spend on these games. Yes, i spent ten euro on a game once, but it was not on kong and provided no unfair advantage other than every game I played in got two new classes. Every play swords and sandals? While only one of them is multiplayer, IT is a pay to play game.

 
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@ bobby71983

Wow such an unique view, to the extend that you do not even know what you are talking about.

Firstly obviously the 300-400 is some magically figure that you draw out of the air with no statistic significance.

Moving on, even if I were to entertain that magical figure, it still doesn’t change the fact that almost close too 100%(if not 100%) of these games are not refraining from selling power in game. This is demonstrated by you conjuring figures rather then even attempt to NAME a single game to prove me wrong.

PS: There is no such thing as “We are talking $300-$400+. Lower than that is generally just for conveinience.” For that claim to be substantial, games has to be selling PER ITEM base on that price OR there is no way to clear pass certain point of the game without paying the Dev that amount.

ELSE,

that just mean that is how much the rest of the p2w players are willing to spend so you have to spend as much to be on par with them.

The point is, your whole argument about putting in lots of money to get clear advantage over EVERYONE is invalid. You already have advantage over the big majority by just spending a single dollar. You are only forking out huge amount because you are trying to gain advantage over others who are trying to do the same. It is like two person trying to outbid each other in an auction.

 
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Energy wasn’t really Time World’s constraint. It was build time and dumb luck to get heroes good enough to have enough points in Command to not get overwhelmed by everything. The last badge that game had was right at the breaking point where going much farther wouldn’t have been feasible without grinding a completely unreasonable amount of XP or buying premium to have a realistic chance of rolling heroes that could grow fast enough to keep up.

This user has obviously not played Time World for longer than 3 days.

No, he’s pretty much right. You can build multiple entire fleets tailor-made to defend against specific weapons, but the bonuses were small enough that the time investment to do so is greater than just brute forcing everything. It was really lazy balance.

 
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@ohno. I know exactly what I am talking about, thanks.

You seem to expect developers to spend a lot of money to make games, and then never charge anything for them. Hate to break it to you, but I don’t think many games developers make games in order to LOSE money. They might not care about profit and stay even, or they(most likely) want to make money, but none want to lose money.

I think the main points that people complain about regarding MMO’s are incredibly stupid. The only one that even I can possibly agree with is that many are clones of each other, but so are most single player games, so they are all equally guilty of laziness. The lack of premium content doesn’t excuse the fact that the game is a lazy effort. Why do you think people make “level packs” of successful single player games? Ad revenue. How dare they try to make money! Infact, Kong should eliminate the entire ad-revenue plan. While we are at it, take all ads off of the site.

Let’s see how much longer Kong is up when that happens. I’d bet not long.

If you don’t like that multiplayer games keep getting promoted, then go make a good single player game, cause many single player games in the last few months have really sucked.

@Pykrete. I have played Time World for 3 months. It’s similar to many MMO’s. You play it for a little bit each day and slowly make progress. It does nothing much better or worse than others, and is very average. I still like it though.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:

@ohno. I know exactly what I am talking about, thanks.

You seem to expect developers to spend a lot of money to make games, and then never charge anything for them. Hate to break it to you, but I don’t think many games developers make games in order to LOSE money. They might not care about profit and stay even, or they(most likely) want to make money, but none want to lose money.

I think the main points that people complain about regarding MMO’s are incredibly stupid. The only one that even I can possibly agree with is that many are clones of each other, but so are most single player games, so they are all equally guilty of laziness. The lack of premium content doesn’t excuse the fact that the game is a lazy effort. Why do you think people make “level packs” of successful single player games? Ad revenue. How dare they try to make money! Infact, Kong should eliminate the entire ad-revenue plan. While we are at it, take all ads off of the site.

Let’s see how much longer Kong is up when that happens. I’d bet not long.

If you don’t like that multiplayer games keep getting promoted, then go make a good single player game, cause many single player games in the last few months have really sucked.

@Pykrete. I have played Time World for 3 months. It’s similar to many MMO’s. You play it for a little bit each day and slowly make progress. It does nothing much better or worse than others, and is very average. I still like it though.

I understand your position. Everyone has different viewpoints. I will say that “Pay2Win” is probably not the best term. Being dedicated to the MMO is the best way to compete. Money helps, but it’s not necessary in all MMOs.

Personally my issue with these “cash-grab” MMOs is that they tend to feature very little (if any) actual gameplay. Another issue I have is that they use energy systems or long wait/build times. These are like the dev saying “You can’t play our game, even if you’d like to” – which just seems like the most silly, inane design decision ever. The reason for this… it’s not a design decision… it’s a business decision.

An interesting experiment is to take whatever game, and strip these kind of delay-the-user features, and see if there is an underlying game underneath, and if so, is it fun. In the case of many MMOs, it’s not. They drive this compulsion loop via (very cheap, imho) psychological tricks. And you’ll see they reward players with further compulsion loops – out from one, into another. In short, they’re attempting to create an addiction cycle, and litter that path with $ signs. You can google this as well, there’s plenty of analysis on this.

 
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That’s pretty typical of most games. The difference of course being that those other games tend to bother being games underneath the compulsion hooks instead of just blandly clicking through a rudimentary UI where you watch numbers get big and wait for it to let you make them bigger.

Like, yeah I tend to consider most Tower Defense to be a tedious grind that I rarely want anything to do with as well, but I acknowledge it to be something that’s actually a game, instead of essentially being a shiny stopwatch with uniformly sexualized characters and copy-paste settings.

 
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Originally posted by Pykrete:

That’s pretty typical of most games. The difference of course being that those other games tend to bother being games underneath the compulsion hooks instead of just blandly clicking through a rudimentary UI where you watch numbers get big and wait for it to let you make them bigger.

Like, yeah I tend to consider most Tower Defense to be a tedious grind that I rarely want anything to do with as well, but I acknowledge it to be something that’s actually a game, instead of essentially being a shiny stopwatch with uniformly sexualized characters and copy-paste settings.

Yep, and the cash-grab games are usually lined with fairly obvious “$” buttons. It would be like if kongregate allowed you to only play 1 game an hour. Or you had energy when you visited kongregate and playing a game cost you some of that energy. At least then we could make leveling up mean something (and therefore give a reason to getting points!)

Would the people who defend these cash-grab MMOs defend that?

 
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No one would defend that, sorry.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:

@ohno. I know exactly what I am talking about, thanks.

You seem to expect developers to spend a lot of money to make games, and then never charge anything for them. Hate to break it to you, but I don’t think many games developers make games in order to LOSE money. They might not care about profit and stay even, or they(most likely) want to make money, but none want to lose money.

I think the main points that people complain about regarding MMO’s are incredibly stupid. The only one that even I can possibly agree with is that many are clones of each other, but so are most single player games, so they are all equally guilty of laziness. The lack of premium content doesn’t excuse the fact that the game is a lazy effort. Why do you think people make “level packs” of successful single player games? Ad revenue. How dare they try to make money! Infact, Kong should eliminate the entire ad-revenue plan. While we are at it, take all ads off of the site.

Let’s see how much longer Kong is up when that happens. I’d bet not long.

If you don’t like that multiplayer games keep getting promoted, then go make a good single player game, cause many single player games in the last few months have really sucked.

@Pykrete. I have played Time World for 3 months. It’s similar to many MMO’s. You play it for a little bit each day and slowly make progress. It does nothing much better or worse than others, and is very average. I still like it though.

O.o if you really do, I wonder how did Dev manage to get drag into this discussion. We are talking about kong spamming MMO on front page. Insert “everyone” need to earn a living is a common excuse, but at least attempt to use it with the correct terms.

In this case, it should be “Kong need to earn money and thus spamming MMO is a reasonable profit strategy.”

I think you do not even read the thread title. Kinda hilarious that you insist you know what you are talking about. No one is complaining about MMO. This thread is about why are we being flooded with MMO and not “why do we hate MMO

As for how sustainable is kong, that is for kong to decide. No one is saying kong is wrong to attempt to generate profit, but there has to be a limit to that greediness. This thread exist because concerned players feel that kong has cross the threshold.

 
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No one is complaining about MMO. This thread is about why are we being flooded with MMO and not “why do we hate MMO”

Eh. I find their existence a little insulting as a career programmer, but I’ll admit I don’t particularly care when the site isn’t shoveling that crap at me to the extreme detriment of everything else. Unfortunately, it is. The “highest rated” lists have been mostly static for a couple years, so the most advertising a new game is likely to get is the feature box and badging.

 
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Well, sorry for not replying earlier, I was busy getting that hard badge of Epic War Saga. Strange how I used to love EW3, still liked (not that much) EW4, disliked EW5, and hated that EW Saga (the worst one since EW2).

Argh, still 3 multiplayer games to go, no hard badge, at least.

I agree with the last 2 posts.

If I was going to tell you why I usually dislike these games, there are several reasons. I hate how my gameplay is limited by the energy systems, and the more you advance in game, the less you can efectively play. Not considering the fact that in games like Tyrant you need to beat each mission 20 times. I also hate being crushed by another player and having my progress cut down, because this enemy spent 600 bucks and got ultimate deck/army/fleet/whatever. I mostly hate how games are designed to manipulate the player into paying, like, you go to the shop, and there is the ultimate item, which you can buy with gold, after farming for 6 months, OR there is a price in premium currency, and you just need to spend your 100 kreds. Or, this upgrade you are trying to do costs 16 gazzilions of each resource, and takes 12 days to be ready, BUT, you can also pay your 200 Kreds, and wow, GET IT NOW. And when I think about how many good games could be developed with the same effort… I hate these MMOs even more.

But yes, I can ignore these games. The problem is that MMOs are making badge hunting boring. As badge hunters are an important part of the community, kong should try a middle term. Ok, so Z thinks its just a bad month of single player games. Maybe hes right, but I think Kong is even estimulating the production / ads of these. And even then, maybe its time to add badges to some old gems, like someone said.

In fact, Pykrete posted something some days ago that is alike to what I feel about these MMOs being badged:

Originally posted by Pykrete:

It used to be a way for the site to say “hey guys, we challenge you to play this awesome game you might not have seen otherwise!” but now it just feels like “hey guys, we want you to buy stuff from this crappy CCG you were trying your best to ignore!

 
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I only partly agree with you there. I am not one to enjoy the card MMO’s like Kongai (only as an example) because an MMO to me is exploring an open world with a lot of weapons. I don’t say they’re bad, but I think there should be a flash version of maybe maybe Perfect World, Runescape, or a new Flash MMO.

 
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You’re not forced to play the MMO’s that are advertised here, so why do you need to complain?

Some people enjoy them, and some people don’t. Just because you don’t enjoy playing them, doesn’t mean that they are ruining the site, as others may enjoy them.

 
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Originally posted by Grumpster:

You’re not forced to play the MMO’s that are advertised here, so why do you need to complain?

Some people enjoy them, and some people don’t. Just because you don’t enjoy playing them, doesn’t mean that they are ruining the site, as others may enjoy them.

Kongregate earns money with advertisment. For advertisment income you need visitors. If the reason why people go to kongrage disapear. The discovering new games and finding games you would otherwise not have found is a big part why people visit this site. But if I get a lot of mmo pushed I don’t want to play I visit the next site on which I can find the games I like. That’s what concerning some poeple. It turned from discovering good games to discovering games we don’t like.

 
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But kong please, i really think you need to stop shoving it down our throats, don’t tell us about every fucking update on every fucking mmo….

 
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Originally posted by xyqtt:
Originally posted by Grumpster:

You’re not forced to play the MMO’s that are advertised here, so why do you need to complain?

Some people enjoy them, and some people don’t. Just because you don’t enjoy playing them, doesn’t mean that they are ruining the site, as others may enjoy them.

Kongregate earns money with advertisment. For advertisment income you need visitors. If the reason why people go to kongrage disapear. The discovering new games and finding games you would otherwise not have found is a big part why people visit this site. But if I get a lot of mmo pushed I don’t want to play I visit the next site on which I can find the games I like. That’s what concerning some poeple. It turned from discovering good games to discovering games we don’t like.

I don’t know about other people, but I have never used the main page news box to find games. Anyone who leaves this site because they don’t like what is being promoted is also likely the type of person who would leave the site for any number of little reasons. No point in trying to worry about people like that, they just go where the wind blows. You can’t control them at all.

 
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