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MMOs Are Ruining Kongregate... page 11

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i think the mmo’s are not as bad as the social games on kong where you got to add them as friends to get anything in game done,now those games i cant stand,but a mmo where you can do game with out having to worrie about others is good

i wont even get into the pay content part of games in this post

 
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I was surprised to see that this topic is still going strong. Thanks everyone for keeping it alive. The problem with MMOs being heavily promoted by Kong is even worse than when I made this topic nearly 6 months ago. Back then, they still had the “old” system for Featured Games, where there would be like a maximum of 5 games featured. At the time 3 out of 5 were MMO ads and this seemed ridiculous at the time because the Featured Games box used to be strictly to promote good games and site challenges. It seems they have expanded that even further to include more shameless MMO promotion, as others have said at times the entire featured games section is MMOs or other pay-to-play game formats.

I rarely come here anymore because I don’t like the direction they have taken with this site. It used to be all about playing cool games (for free!) and collecting badges. I could come to Kong, see a bunch of different games under Featured Games or in other places on the front page, and pick one and play for awhile for a quick escape from reality.

Maybe kong will come to their senses and see they are ruining this once great site, but I’m not holding my breath. I don’t want to say they’ve sold out, but they really have sold out.

 
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Originally posted by bobby71983:
Originally posted by xyqtt:
Originally posted by Grumpster:

You’re not forced to play the MMO’s that are advertised here, so why do you need to complain?

Some people enjoy them, and some people don’t. Just because you don’t enjoy playing them, doesn’t mean that they are ruining the site, as others may enjoy them.

Kongregate earns money with advertisment. For advertisment income you need visitors. If the reason why people go to kongrage disapear. The discovering new games and finding games you would otherwise not have found is a big part why people visit this site. But if I get a lot of mmo pushed I don’t want to play I visit the next site on which I can find the games I like. That’s what concerning some poeple. It turned from discovering good games to discovering games we don’t like.

I don’t know about other people, but I have never used the main page news box to find games. Anyone who leaves this site because they don’t like what is being promoted is also likely the type of person who would leave the site for any number of little reasons. No point in trying to worry about people like that, they just go where the wind blows. You can’t control them at all.

People arent supposed to be controled, lol.

Yes, I used to use the main page to find games, specially when I came to the site for the first times, back in 2009 (of course, I dont use it anymore, its completely useless). I think that having interesting games and challenges there could help to attract more fresh people, instead of “new server of game X”. But, of course Kong is not worried about someone that comes, look at the first page and goes out to never return. All this MMO promotion is for the community Kong already has (if the goal was to attract more people, the staff would probably need another strategy). And this goes to my point: a great part of the community thinks that getting badges is fun. If they start to badge crappy games, the site will lose its atractiveness to these people. Remember, badge hunters are also very profitable (ads in each page).

Look, Im not against advertising or promoting profitable games, Im against badging some of them. Legacy of Heroes, for example, is like someone said, a shameless new skin of Clash of the Dragons. Why to badge it? This is the type of thing that makes a badge hunter mad. Why should we play the same thing again? If the devs create a new space skin (probably are already working on something like this), will it receive badges? Why not create a weekly challenge giving an item in that game, or send an in game msg to Clash of the Dragons players saying “our new game is avaliable, why dont you try it?”, or maybe even an ad in main page? Badging crappy games is crappy.

(While I can tolerate all the promotion in the main page, I really think Kong wont attract much more people that way. Why not present some well known high rated games and hot new games in the more visible spot – like, featured games – to try expand the community?)

 
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Originally posted by 2by4:

Those cash-grab MMO’s in the front page is very annoying :/
Only Gamestop would such a thing. What a shame…

Agreed.

 
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Originally posted by Overshire:
Originally posted by 2by4:

Those cash-grab MMO’s in the front page is very annoying :/
Only Gamestop would such a thing. What a shame…

Agreed.

Disagree. They are being put there because a large userbase loves these games. They rate them highly and get on the front page like any other game.

 
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Welcome to Capitalism, what did you expect?

 
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Actually, that’s not as indicative as you might think. Poking through multiplayer games on this site, they seem to get considerably less people rating them than other genres in the first place, a good chunk of which come after they get badged and get a sudden influx of players.

Elephant Quest: 97,000
Knightmare Tower: 43,000
Electric Box 2: 61,000
Infectonator 2: 36,000 (relatively new)

Berserk: 13,000
Time World: 23,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Legacy of Heroes: 10,000
Kingdoms CCG: 11,000
Crystal Saga: 13,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Call of Gods: 26,000 (really, really old and was featured a lot in its heyday)

What this tells me is that MMO’s get upvoted by a disproportionately small subset of Kong’s visitors. This is likely due to the recommendation system showing new MMO’s primarily to people who have consistently upvoted them in the past while hiding them from people who frequently rate them low, creating an insular safety bubble (presumably of kids with their dads’ credit card numbers) until it inevitably gets badged and advertised to hell. In other words, automatic selection bias.

This doesn’t really pose a problem for most genres because there’s usually slip room generated by variety and exceptional games. People will occasionally like something out of their comfort zone. But when you have one saturated with as much utter crap as MMO’s, they’re going to get heuristically isolated very quickly.

 
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Legacy of Heroes, for example, is like someone said, a shameless new skin of Clash of the Dragons. Why to badge it? This is the type of thing that makes a badge hunter mad. Why should we play the same thing again?

Over 90% of badged games are reskins of other games. Most players do not care or ignore that fact. I remember someone talking about how DTD invented the whole tower defense genre and I was like “lol, I used to play tower defense in Starcraft over a decade ago”.

The same goes for the rest. I always find it funny when people comment things like “X is a clone of Toss the turtle”, like if Toss the turle wasn’t a copy of something else.

Most popular games stole their concepts from some other, less known game. You name it; there’s a huge chance that they stole the idea. Be it DTD, Toss the Turtle, Angry Birds, Farmville or Guitar Hero. None of them are an original concept.

If they only badged original games, there would be like 100 badged games.

 
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Originally posted by Senekis93:
Most popular games stole their concepts from some other, less known game. You name it; there’s a huge chance that they stole the idea. Be it DTD, Toss the Turtle, Angry Birds, Farmville or Guitar Hero. None of them are an original concept.

Cracked reference.

 
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Originally posted by adv0catus:
Originally posted by Senekis:
Most popular games stole their concepts from some other, less known game. You name it; there’s a huge chance that they stole the idea. Be it DTD, Toss the Turtle, Angry Birds, Farmville or Guitar Hero. None of them are an original concept.

Cracked reference.

Not really; Cracked articles are often innacurate.
ie; they say Farmville is a clone of Farm Town, but fail to mention that the later is a copy of My Farm, which expanded Happy Farm, based on Harvest Moon, etc, etc.

 
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I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that games in the same genre are reskins or theft of preceding games. THe fact that two games share similar mechanics, and one may even have influenced the other, doesn’t mean they’re not still separate games that play differently within the bounds of that genre.

 
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Originally posted by saybox:

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that games in the same genre are reskins or theft of preceding games. THe fact that two games share similar mechanics, and one may even have influenced the other, doesn’t mean they’re not still separate games that play differently within the bounds of that genre.

Obviously. Not all TD’s play the exact same. Concept innovation is one of the methods of game design. “Hey that’s cool! I can do it better if I do this!” Else all our TDs would be just like playing Dune 2 (which far pre-dates Starcraft) ;)

 
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Originally posted by saybox:

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that games in the same genre are reskins or theft of preceding games. THe fact that two games share similar mechanics, and one may even have influenced the other, doesn’t mean they’re not still separate games that play differently within the bounds of that genre.

It’s part of the progression of a genre. Using prior game(s) as a base, and expanding on it. MMOs are just as guilty of doing this as any other genre.

Making a completely original idea is gonna tend to fail because gamers as a whole, regardless of what the vocal minority says, prefer familiarity.

 
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Originally posted by Senekis93:
Legacy of Heroes, for example, is like someone said, a shameless new skin of Clash of the Dragons. Why to badge it? This is the type of thing that makes a badge hunter mad. Why should we play the same thing again?

Over 90% of badged games are reskins of other games. Most players do not care or ignore that fact. I remember someone talking about how DTD invented the whole tower defense genre and I was like “lol, I used to play tower defense in Starcraft over a decade ago”.

The same goes for the rest. I always find it funny when people comment things like “X is a clone of Toss the turtle”, like if Toss the turle wasn’t a copy of something else.

Most popular games stole their concepts from some other, less known game. You name it; there’s a huge chance that they stole the idea. Be it DTD, Toss the Turtle, Angry Birds, Farmville or Guitar Hero. None of them are an original concept.

If they only badged original games, there would be like 100 badged games.

There is a diff. All TD are of the same genre, thus same concept same game play. However some of the MMO are literally a copy/paste from a shared template(look out for china products).

Yes ultimately you can argue that it just how much a person perceive how similar one game is to another, however personally I do differentiate the difference between copy/paste and innovation, and appreciate the latter and condemn the former.

Load up these two game in the post
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1-kongregate/topics/261944-mmos-are-ruining-kongregate?page=8#posts-6418261

and tell me they are not copy/paste from a standard template.

 
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Originally posted by Pykrete:

Actually, that’s not as indicative as you might think. Poking through multiplayer games on this site, they seem to get considerably less people rating them than other genres in the first place, a good chunk of which come after they get badged and get a sudden influx of players.

Elephant Quest: 97,000
Knightmare Tower: 43,000
Electric Box 2: 61,000
Infectonator 2: 36,000 (relatively new)

Berserk: 13,000
Time World: 23,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Legacy of Heroes: 10,000
Kingdoms CCG: 11,000
Crystal Saga: 13,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Call of Gods: 26,000 (really, really old and was featured a lot in its heyday)

What this tells me is that MMO’s get upvoted by a disproportionately small subset of Kong’s visitors. This is likely due to the recommendation system showing new MMO’s primarily to people who have consistently upvoted them in the past while hiding them from people who frequently rate them low, creating an insular safety bubble (presumably of kids with their dads’ credit card numbers) until it inevitably gets badged and advertised to hell. In other words, automatic selection bias.

This doesn’t really pose a problem for most genres because there’s usually slip room generated by variety and exceptional games. People will occasionally like something out of their comfort zone. But when you have one saturated with as much utter crap as MMO’s, they’re going to get heuristically isolated very quickly.

Originally posted by Pykrete:

Actually, that’s not as indicative as you might think. Poking through multiplayer games on this site, they seem to get considerably less people rating them than other genres in the first place, a good chunk of which come after they get badged and get a sudden influx of players.

Elephant Quest: 97,000
Knightmare Tower: 43,000
Electric Box 2: 61,000
Infectonator 2: 36,000 (relatively new)

Berserk: 13,000
Time World: 23,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Legacy of Heroes: 10,000
Kingdoms CCG: 11,000
Crystal Saga: 13,000 (really old and almost constantly featured)
Call of Gods: 26,000 (really, really old and was featured a lot in its heyday)

What this tells me is that MMO’s get upvoted by a disproportionately small subset of Kong’s visitors. This is likely due to the recommendation system showing new MMO’s primarily to people who have consistently upvoted them in the past while hiding them from people who frequently rate them low, creating an insular safety bubble (presumably of kids with their dads’ credit card numbers) until it inevitably gets badged and advertised to hell. In other words, automatic selection bias.

This doesn’t really pose a problem for most genres because there’s usually slip room generated by variety and exceptional games. People will occasionally like something out of their comfort zone. But when you have one saturated with as much utter crap as MMO’s, they’re going to get heuristically isolated very quickly.

Good point. I am not exactly sure how the system is over here at kong, but I heard many mention that kong will try to not show you games kong think you will dislike.

In other words, if the system work flawlessly and almost everyone just look thru games that are being recommended by kong, then the game rating of each game is simply a show of how big the player base is.

i.e newly uploaded mmo doesnt get downrated because existing haters will not see it unless they look thru the list of new game manually(assuming the “only show game you might like” system function well)

 
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inb4 haters: I don’t mind most PBBGs, however, the constant spamming of PBBGs that require payment is a major annoyance.

 
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@wattro: Rampart predates that one, and there may be older ones. I wasn’t claiming that Starcraft was the first; the thing is that many players know little about video games history and tend to reward ripoffs because they think they’re playing something new.

@ohnonooh: I see what you mean. It’s a common practice in those companies (and countries), and to be honest, it makes sense.
Why bother making a new game when you can simply decompile one, replace graphics and text and make thousands of free dollars?

I wouldn’t blame the companies making them, or Kong for giving them badges. The issue are the ones who spend money on them; there is a demand for such “games” and someone has to cover it.

And as someone said, that’s fine. We get 60k free games thanks to the kids who spend thousands in these kind of games. They’re wasting their parents’ money so we can play for free.


I think that missing a couple of badges is a fair price for being able to play thousands of free games.

The whole thread makes little sense; the initial statement is that “MMOs are ruining Kong”, and while many arguments about why MMOs suck have been provided, all of them failt to prove how they’re ruining the site; nobody forces you to play those games and if you consider the numbers (less than 100 MMOs vs over 60k total games), it seems like a pretty weak argument.

One of the most mentioned things is that the featured games area now serves as a place for ads and while I would prefer to see other kind of games there, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I don’t see people complaining about YouTube featuring LadyGaga videos instead of the 30-views ones of your neighbour’s band.

I have been using Kong for a while (not since it started, but way before I registred) and I think its essence is the same; anyone able to make a web-based game can share it. Yes, there have been many design changes, a bunch of Facebook-like additions and really annoying ads, but as long as they don’t change their uploads policy, I think it’s safe to say that Kong is true to its original idea.

And once again; instead of spamming the forums with threads like this one, why don’t you people propose an alternative which gives Kong as much money as MMOs do?
Yes, we all hate these shitty games, but Kong is a profit-driven company; a million “MMOs suck” threads won’t make them change their plans if it doesn’t result in extra income, and seriously, any of you who lead or help manage a company or business should know this.

 
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Like I said, I could stomach it if they were just there, and if it was just about badges I wouldn’t care that much either. I already write off entire genres for those. If it was just about banner ads I wouldn’t care either. I already ignore those.

The problem is that these games choke out visibility for games that are actually worth playing. Like, I can check stuff under Newest Games, and it’ll usually be utterly generic Match Three, the umpteenth clone of Bust-A-Move, bland mouse avoiders, etc. I can trawl through those for a few short stretches, but sadly Sturgeon’s Law applies even to Kongregate. Games that clear the first round of reviews might make it under “hot new games” for a couple days, linger on Top Weekly a bit longer, then basically vanish forever in that strange limbo of nearly invisible existence unless they get badged. When I find a new-ish game I actually like, almost every time it’s through the feature box or badges.

 
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Looking at the Featured Games right now, it’s quite reasonable:

- RotMG, the contest.
- UA3, sponsor.
- bit Dungeon, a single player game that was just badged.
- Berserk, a MMO that was recently badged.
- Jacksmith, a single player game that was just badged.
- Into Space 2, a single player game that was just badged.

 
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Senekis,

90% of games are reskins? Lol. There is a big difference between being same genre and being a only a skin. Toss the Turtle, Learn to Fly and Burrito Bison are different enough to be different games. The same applies even to MMOs, Card Monsters and Kingdoms CCG are both CCGs where you have at max 3 creatures in play, but there are enough differences.

But Legacy of Heroes and Clash of the Dragons have almost exactly same gameplay. Even the card database looks the same. I can admit its not a problem of MMOs only, I hate when a new Bloons TD (arrrrrrghhh!, I hate these soooo much), or SCGMD, or Protector, or Papa’s game is launched, because I know they will get badges, but even then, there are differences beyond mere graphics. Badging this can only be with the proposal of estimulate people to buy Kreds, and this is a shame.

About originality, the discussion is completely futile. If you want really original games, go play Atari 2600. I have no problem about games that expand and improve ideas gathered from previous games.

The whole thread makes a lot of sense to me. To my eyes, if MMOs ruin the badge hunting experience, they are ruining Kong. Badges are the central feature of the site. If it sucks, Kong can lose a good portion of its most loyal members, the badge hunters. Like I said, I highly doubt all this MMO promotion is going to attract more people, so yeah, with some time, it can make the community thinner. Done, less profit to Kong.

This is what I was talking about all the time, the MMO promotion needs to be at a middle-term, not alike the time I bumped this thread, when we had like 25% of badges recently added being of MMOs. Im even happy because no MMO was badge since then, and this can be a sign that things may be going to normality again, although I hate to look at the featured games and see that Epic War Saga is in there again because of some ridiculously little content added, argh.

Anyway, Pykrete has another good point. There are tons of good single games being ignored, while crappy MMOs are being promoted. I dislike earning points by rating games I have never played, but I feel that I will pay a visit to every MMO in “hot new games” from now, just to give them a 1/5, and I suggest to all MMO haters to do the same. It sucks, surely, but it takes much less time than earn this f*cking medium badge of the Clash of Dragons cartoonish skin.

 
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Originally posted by adv0catus:

Looking at the Featured Games right now, it’s quite reasonable:

- RotMG, the contest.
- UA3, sponsor.
- bit Dungeon, a single player game that was just badged.
- Berserk, a MMO that was recently badged.
- Jacksmith, a single player game that was just badged.
- Into Space 2, a single player game that was just badged.

1 or 2 weeks does not a happy trend make. :) it might be decent now, that doesn’t mean everything is back to good. hopefully it is, and kong has awoken from their jerk period…. but we just can’t be so short-sighted.

a short-sighted america means romney for president

 
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They stopped giving ridiculously long and frustrating badges to MMOs most likely because enough people whined about it. However, it’s unreasonable to want them to not get badged at all. Most MMO badges these days can be earned in a short amount of time. There is nothing wrong with the system. There isn’t even that many MMOs on kong relative to other games.

This whole thread has made a bigger deal of the issue than it deserved. It was never an issue to begin with.

 
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Yes, if 10%+ of the badges added / badged games are MMOs, I think there is an issue. If this number can reach 25%+, than I bet almost everyone that cares about badges will think there is a serious issue. If most of this games are just cash-grab machines, and new skins of older cash-grab machines, well, I think you got the point: there is an issue. Of course, if the badges were too long and frustrating, it would be worse, but this doesnt change the fact that there is an issue.

Although I would like it, I never asked (and I saw no one doing it) for not badging MMOs at all. They should just badge them at a reasonable ammount, like it used to be. I mean, good games, got it? And not promoting all these crappy games just trying to convince people to spend some kreds on them.

Now, let me look for some MMOs to give 1/5 ;o)

 
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…And idiots are ruining Earth.

Just about an equivalent argument.

 
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I just came to the forums looking for a topic like this after every other game I clicked on was one of those crappy mmos.

How do they manage to always have such high ratings?