Feedback Thread

32 posts

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Please feel free to post any and all ideas, delights, and gripes here.

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A solid game!

I remember having fun playing “Biogems” which was a turn-based, single player match-3 game with somewhat similar mechanics.
Little Legends’ real-time and multiplayer setting definitely adds to that experience. The sudden death was well implemented to keep matches relatively short and keep the momentum going between sessions.

Keep up the good work and hope to see more players coming on board and a bigger community!

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After playing for a lot of time i’m feeling concerned about Ai’s, they are too broken at my (2k+) rank. The only way to win to the Ai’s is to have better gear and i think it’s a bit unfair. Ai’s are making 2 moves at the same time, making moves while gems are still in action, while ultimate hasn’t still ended and while playing purple mini-game, (when i cannot make moves) and that’s a bit broken. I know they are supposed to be good, but really so good? You wanted players to not know if they are playing against Ai’s, but well now its obvious – if your enemy has 2 or 3 times higher move speed – its Ai.

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@cserror We just released an update that added some improvements to the AI’s. We definitely do not try to hide when you are playing against AI’s. We just view the AI’s as players in the ecosystem. Here’s a detailed write up we did giving the gritty details of AI’s and matchmaking: AI Post

As of today, we introduced a virtual latency on the AI’s so that their move requests have to wait to travel over the internet just like yours do.

Lastly, sorry that you’re frustrated with them, and I promise that we will always try to improve them. The more humans play the game, the less people will be playing against AI’s.

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What happened to the price of embers? It’s 5k embers for 1m nuggets but 1m nuggets costs about 20k embers. Also the items that cost embers in the store don’t match the ones that cost nuggets. A purple item costs 16,835 embers yet an orange costs about 1.3m. So the value of embers is now 4x that of nuggets?

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@skull I screwed up in two ways. 1. The game was released with an exploit that let people grab as many nuggets as they wanted. 2. The currency market we put in place couldn’t handle the scenario and keep the price right. This means people started fulling gearing up in a matter of days.

The economy got thrown out of whack the first week by an exploit. Embers are supposed to be very very precious in the game. (At least, that’s how we designed them to be!) We had two choices: Reset everyone’s progress, or turn off the market. We decided to leave the market on, but artificially bind it to a high exchange rate. This at least allows some trading. We also fixed prices for nugget items, so that the currency market only influences the exchange of currency. Since we also just introduced friend to friend wagering, we also gave players yet another way to earn currency. Given how creative you guys have been about maximizing your nugget profits, (it’s been impressive by the way), we further exposed the economy to another way for players to gain nuggets quickly.

Our goal for everything in Little Legends, is for the community of players to set the prices by deciding what things are worth. It pains me that after all of our preparation, that we had to do this.

Our current thinking for the long-term plan for the currency exchange: Currency auction. People who want to sell nuggets, will set the quantity of nuggets and how much embers they want for them and then send that “sell order” to the auction. People who want to buy nuggets will look at the packages of nuggets in the auction, and buy them. This is basically how a stock exchange works. (Albeit, in only one direction.) In doing this, we would not have to worry about fulfilling currency orders that lack a current buyer as it would be almost impossible for there not to be a sell order in the market. (Putting a sell order for an outrageous price in an empty auction queue would be guaranteed to happen given how sophisticated you guys have shown to be.). It does add a delay to when you can get embers for your nuggets, but it will entirely be up to you and you will have perfect supply/demand information of the market. People wanting to acquire nuggets with embers will be able to do so instantly as long as the auction queue has something in it. An auction commission will be in place to function as the “spread.” That commission will be a fixed percentage that will be as low as it can be, but high enough to prevent a ton of orders that kill our database. Sell quantities will be in fixed increments of 1,000-10,000 nuggets, and is TBD.

This will all take some time to implement, and that is our current plan. We may discover that the plan won’t work, so don’t murder me if we end up needing to handle currency in a different way. We are working as fast as we can, and adding Houses to the game is our #1 priority. #2 is adding new characters/mini-games. #3 Is try to fix the currency exchange. I can’t give exact times, as we are a small team, and we handle all aspects of the game.

Also, you shouldn’t have had to learn about a change this big after the fact, and I apologize for not announcing it in the forums. I only announced it in chat. In the future, the team and we will give people fair warning so it isn’t a surprise.

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If I may, I’ll give some suggestions based upon what I’ve seen perhaps 100 times or more, so as to be sure my judgment cannot be clouded by a few frustrated moments.

1. The AI still cheats subtly, in a few ways:

A) When you fire up your ultimate while an AI opponent is “bombed” (which means it has to click on certain objects which name I don’t know to blow away the smoke), it will certainly cheat. I have seen countless times how I forgot this for a moment and fired up my ultimate while the AI was still covered in smoke. During the ultimate it goes away which means there must be a way for the AI to simply keep clicking, or if the AI is more abstract, the cool-down before the smoke goes away keeps running.
Shortly said, the AI can still remove its smoke while the game is paused by an ultimate.

B) When the game is paused, there’s a certain moment when you can continue your click-and-dragging or clicking on spells, naturally. This moment, however, currently does not seem to match up with the AI. As my rating went up (as I’m writing I am 2300-ish rated), it simply became a norm for the AI to always make one or two matches before I could even cast a spell (for instance a smoke screen which I delayed until after my ultimate, because of 1A). I don’t know how the code looks like, but I hope the developers will be able to trace back why this happens, as I even feel like (but this I did not make a separate letter as I am too unsure) their “target speed” goes up while the ultimate is cast. I know that there is an average target matching speed for AI’s and that it is influenced by the game. Hopefully this is just an illusion and the AI only moves prematurely, not overly quickly.

C) This one I am also unsure of so I’ll keep it short. It seems to me that AI can sometimes make a move when a pause (when they got their cannon/slingshot or ultimate) has just occurred, so adding to the last part of 1B, it seems simply as if the timings of when AI pauses compared to when humans are forced to pause, are slightly off.

2. AI goes too slow with cannon: humans are great at anticipating, AI’s are not. The top rated humans can all throw cannon balls with only 100 milliseconds at max nothing happening. The sling of course is different as it’s not 3 times the same. On this notion of anticipation I’d like to move on to my third comment on AI:

3. AI needs some extra coefficients in move decision-making and matching speed. We humans look at the center of the board first, and then circularly move towards the edges. We skip large parts of the board that we can quickly see not to hold potential matches so of course this is quite sketchy, but generally this is how most of us would do it. It’s even better to do this as cascades (matches that appear by falling pieces) are more likely to happen when matching closer to the center. We also tend to follow up a match with another one that’s very close if there is any possible match close: while the orbs fall into place we naturally look closest around that space, making that a temporary “center”. AI does not do any of this at the moment. Sometimes it simply matches one and does not do anything with what then turns out to be a potential match, as a result of the prior match. Humans would rarely miss this, I mean, I very often click, drag, and then immediately click and drag again because I anticipated the next appearing potential match. Also, AI sometimes does do two matches very quickly after one another, with quite some space between them. This is just the same concept as earlier described, but then the other way around. I think such coefficients would greatly enhance the credibility of AI.

PS. Now I do want to tell why I write this. I think this game is great and holds great potential as well. That being said, there’s still a huge lot of complaining involving the AI, which I could not help but only partially disagree with. People will always feel frustrated and blame it on something, but hopefully a credible, non-cheating AI would improve game-play and reduce the amount of complaining about the in-game AI.

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I agree with all of the above , I’ve just witnessed an AI remove blizzard that I had just cast on him right before I launched an ultimate and while it was doing it’s animation I saw the blizzard being removed off the AI and he proceeded to stealing my next move like nothing ever happened… They also tend to go ’’apeshit’’ when they are about to lose by a big margin, as if they were programmed to win no matter what that match.. Anyways I’ve seen many flaws in the AI’s but it remains at that , the game is wonderful and beautifully crafted and well put together, We just want to give our feedback, us , the players that have to go and experience humiliating defeats from AI’s leaving us to feel like we’ve been violated.

I also noticed that they will get whatever they need no matter what. I.EX : Bot had just finished shooting 3 slingshot at me , I was waiting for purples to show on the board because I was 1 match away from getting my slingshot too, he then goes into slingshot mode right away again! Did not even make a match because there was none to be made.. and if i’m not mistaken he would of needed 5 purple to get slingshot right away again , which again he didn’t.. so are the bots getting power-ups even though we steal everything from them? I know there’s cascades and all but in this case it was 100% impossible for the bot to go into double slingshot.

With all that said , maybe they are working as intended , maybe they aren’t, but it’s frustrating to lose when you know you had all the advantages and over 100 speed more than the bot. So please look into this really deeply and perhaps get your ranks up and play against them to see what we really mean! I can accept defeat but I can’t accept dishonest moves.

P.S I know they are programmed to be good and not allow us to always win and ‘farm’ nuggets , but when we can’t make either profit or progression , it loses it’s charm .. my floom is currently starving :P

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You both raise a number of real issues with the AIs. Our intent in programming them was that they play exactly the same as a human player, no cheating allowed. The better the AI, the more quickly they move, but if they are doing something that a human player, even a super fast human player, can’t do, then that is a bug.

Clearing a blizzard while getting hit by an ultimate is definitely a bug that we will fix.

Since the AIs should have the same limitations as a human, it should not have been able to use a slingshot without matching purples. We’ll check for bugs there, and if you see it happen again please let us know.

Runeangel, could you clarify a bit on the AI moving when it should be paused? What was the exact scenario where it should not be moving?

Improvements to the AIs smarts will come in the future, and suggestions help us know what you want to see. Keep ’em coming!

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I can tell you 1 part, when Ais shouldn’t be moving, when ultimate pause is going to end, Ais are able to start moving before player is still paused – like 1 or 2 s faster than players.

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A few more observations when it comes to bots – I managed to get up to 2620 rating from 2400 without losing once , then from that point I am getting man-handled again and now I’m back in the 2400’s rating with barely any nuggets left.. No matter how hard I try they always get the best of me. It’s like they learned how I was winning and prevent me at all cost lol Anyways I can honestly say that they will pull illegal moves such as mid-air flips which I will explain : Picture the board like a graphic , well I make a match in G 5-6-7 for example , and on E6 there’s a mana tile , which should fall on H6 and I6.. well the bots just snatch that mana tile and shoves it on the side while it’s still hovering. This I know is do-able with some crazy skills because I pulled it off but for them to do this while they’re doing 2 or 3 other switches on the board at the same time? No human can process 3 switches + see that you can block a cascade from happening.. Oh and I shouldn’t forget to mention that they will straight out grab it while it’s falling to shove it on the side where it shouldn’t of been able to be put , example for that would be me doing a A3-B3-C3-D3 match for example , and mana tile is about to fall to rest on top of E3 by default , on the side there’s 2 mana tiles sitting in B4 and D4 , well the bot just swoops it from mid-air and shoves it into C4 when in reality it shouldn’t of been possible.

I apologize if this sounds confusing but it’s again observations that I make and when those illegal moves becomes why you lose, it’s frustrating.

Another thing I noticed is that I suspect bots to either hit harder than a human could , or they attack without having the required pool filled.. I started this match with a beautiful 5 of a kind match for yellow’s , so I cast blizzard on the bot , and steal all the best moves off the board , by the time he started playing again I noticed I was missing 600 health , and he didn’t or couldn’t of gotten 4 or 5 full gage of weapon in 1 second.. nor did he get the slingshot , and he didn’t have mines so where did all my damage come from? Just seems crazy that I’m stealing all the moves with over 100 speed difference from the bot and he’s doing the same damage I do when I know I took all the attacking tiles :S

Anyways I’m at the point where It’s impossible to make profit so I will wait for AI’s to be worked on , or for more humans to be higher ranked I don’t know. It’s a shame because I really love this game , I am aware I can’t always win and don’t expect too , but please really look into them so it’s fair to us players ;)

Like Mightym770 said , they shouldn’t be doing something players can’t :)

On that note , Yes I confirm that bots will always steal the best move after animations such as ultimates no matter how hard or fast you click , the game pre-determinely gave it to the bot.. so now I don’t even bother going for that move lol

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Wel the bug i didnt see mentioned yet is when the ai makes a double move.
The first bug is a verry anoying “Steal”
It is verry likely it wil steal/make amove when you just finished a move. But the ai cheat with this.
It can steal the stone you moved out to make a new connection immidiatly after you moved it (you can’t use this stone yet yourself cause you have to wait for the animation to finish. How i hate this one). Basicly the ai doesnt need to wait for animations. This is also after a catapult you need to wait for the camara to turn back but the ai doesnt need to do that. So ai also doesnt wait for dropping stones or moving stones or effects of animations. It only make sense that a ai can proces the field way faster then a human brain can but it should do it in a fair way :P. It also doesnt have the visial limitations that we get after agnars ultimate snowman flash or the wirlwindheart basic skil flash.

Then the other way it cheats with the double move. It can use the moved stone to make a connection regardles it bein illegal. It can move a stone up and 1 down. Then move the stone it just moved to make a connection. The ai can even do this while the first move would have been a illegal action.
The problem is probebly how the field engine records moves. (i think)
Lets say a yellow blue stone switches with a yellow stone from a2 to b2. If the field engine then records b2 = blue a1 = yellow. Then the ai doesnt know any better then that it can use the blue stone on b2 to make a connection somewhere else. The field checks if that move would be legal after it changed. While it should check before the change if that move would be legal. (in my opinion) that way the ai cant use the stone of the illegal move to make a illegal connection. It is possible to do this as a player but you need to be extremly fast (it is verry unlikely a player wil ever do this). But even if you do this it is stil a illegal move to do cause it is basicly cheating.
Anyways if this is the case the problem isnt with the ai but how the field tells the ai how the field is.
Stones should just be recorded moved when there is a connection.

Na next subject the stones falling. the stones falling can be moved as thorsunder said. Maybe it is best to make stones in motion not being able to move till they have a stone/border under them. That way moving /using / switching stones mid air shoudnt be possible. So when there is a empty spaceunder in a row and that move isnt made on the same time (or a smal delay you use to say that things are on the same time) then stone cant be used. Cause now stones falling are fair game to be used . (atleast for the ai, as player you need to be fast and lucky to be able to select it and move it the way you want it to)

I hope my explanation helps to solve the problems. ^^(and i hope i explained it good enough)

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I love the concept and game play, and I really think this has a lot of potential. I’ve come to give feedback however because I believe the reward system to be unfortunate, and the combination of that reward system with Glicko ranking to actually be broken. My comments and the reasoning behind them are below. As always, it’s possible that I just don’t quite understand something, so if my assumptions are incorrect then I would be happy to hear otherwise :)

1.) The Glicko system ensures a 50% win rate over time, no matter what. (Note: after some thought, this doesn’t quite apply to people that are have either very high rankings or very low rankings, but I think holds true for the majority of players.)

Reasoning: Once your correct skill rating has been determined, you will be fighting opponents just as good as you are. Any lucky winning streaks will result in harder battles until you lose as many fights as you won to return to your correct skill rating. Unlucky streaks will be similarly self-corrected.

2.) Although the game appears to be both skill and luck based on the surface, it is actually neither, and this is pretty unfortunate.

Reasoning: Because rewards are based on battle win rate (which can only be 50% due to Glicko), nothing you do affects your long-term character progression other than total number of battles played. Winning the current battle just means losing a battle later, and losing the current battle just means winning a battle later, for the same net amount of character progression. Even things like equipping super powerful items or buying in-game currency only let you win just a couple of short term battles until you reach your new correct skill rating, at which point everything goes back to not mattering (this also assumes that nobody else progresses past you… which would mean short term losses…)

3.) While good play cannot affect long-term character progression, purposeful bad play can.

Reasoning: If you know that you are going to lose 50% of the long-term battles regardless of your actions, you can purposefully lose every other match in the training grounds which keeps your rating artificially low, and then destroy some poor guy that is way below your actual skill level for 5000 nuggets. At this point the combination of the reward structure and Glicko is actually broken… ratings quickly lose their meaning if there is no incentive to try to win, and even people that are looking for nothing more than a fun game to pass the time get hurt by this.

4.) Aside from experience that comes from any battle, Inferno appears to be negative character progression

If you choose to a play inferno, a 50% win rate means that after 2 games, you have lost 10k nuggets, gained experience for one win and one loss, and received one mystery box (not generally worth 10k nuggets :/)

Compare this to “Stoke the Flame”, where after 2 games, you have gained experience for one win and one loss, and earned a total of 3k nuggets.

Finally, just for comparison, if you purposefully lose a match in training and then win an unfairly ranked match in “Stoke the Flame”, you come away again with experience for 1 win, 1 loss, and 5k nuggets.

Edit: I’ve been thinking more about my point 1 above, and I think the assumption is not quite right for people at the very high end or very low end of the spectrum. This is due to the fact that if you are very near one edge of the spectrum (for example, you are almost the best player), a random player within 100 points of you is almost always going to have a lower rank than you, and as a result a loss will hurt your ranking more than a win will help it on average, which allows for a higher win/loss ratio than is otherwise possible. For the average player though, I don’t think this will be the case.

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After reading SirDuck’s post just above , I have to admit it makes perfect sense all what he said and that I understand what’s happening to me and why I can’t win anymore in Inferno.

I was stuck around 2400 rating for a little while and I decided to change my gameplay a little and I proceeded to go on a winning streak all the way up to 2620 rating ( maybe 15-20 wins in a row? ) At which point the game didn’t like what I was doing , or rather the glicko system :P I then proceeded to losing and losing , winning a few times here and there, I could not understand what was going on since I breezed up so quickly , I thought I had finally progressed and became better , alas I was wrong , I’m now back down in the 2400’s rating and no matter what I do , I lose more than I can win resulting in me having lost over 500k nuggets the last time I played :S

So yes SirDuck is right , the more you win , the higher your rank becomes , the more you will lose in the long run. Basicly now even thought my rank is in the 2400’s , the game must still associate me to a 2600? Add that to ’’glitchy’’ bots that cheat , and you’ve got yourself a unfair situation.. I’m someone that loves to see progression in my gameplay , that loves to see my improvement, which I thought I had done , but now I’m stuck in a loop that takes away my earnings , stealing away all my progression and sense of accomplishement.

I believe that again with more real players we wouldn’t be facing such issues , but the glicko system might need to be revised to ensure that fairness isn’t lost in this wonderful game.

edit: I forgot to mention that he’s also right for the better gears only helps you for a short time. All bots I play against right now have exactly 1248 hp , hits super hard with slingshot or weapon , and especially hard with ultimate ( I had 653 hp left once and got killed by the puking parrot ) I currently own 2 epics and 1 legendary and it’s not helping me much. I’m always faster than the bots and steal the best moves so why I’m losing is beyond me.

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@SirDuck36: I agree fully, but of course that’s not the reason I dedicate my first paragraph to your post (that would be useless). I just wanted to say that you said the game is not skill-based. If you meant with that rating, then no, as you will progress as you get a hang of mechanics, more speed, and more focus on the right orbs. If you meant that it is not based on skill whether you win or lose, that would be only applicable when considering you keep playing at your own rating level which means you keep having a win/loss rate of 50%. However, this is totally logical and if you’d want to see if winning or losing happens unfairly you have to keep the opponent’s rating the same, and then of course you will see higher and higher win/loss rates as your skill goes up.

@MightyM770 and @ThorAsunder: I have not been able to gain any support of Thor’s theory on AI becoming significantly stronger when losing. The effect on the human brain when one is losing a fast-paced game however is HUGE. Thor may support his propositions on AI becoming obsessive with winning if he can, but for now my best guess is that this is purely a genuine claim that comes from frustration (I don’t mean to demeanor your claim to be made while frustrated, I just mean I think it was formed out of misjudgment caused by frustration). I myself thought this for a while but I managed to overcome the rating gap between me and yoshi and now have played numerous game at 2600-ish rating without AI going more off-balanced than at 2500. At the moment improving rating at 2600 is just a matter of improving the win-rate against the best AI’s currently implemented.

In the same way (I really intend this paragraph with the same explanation around my counterclaim as previous to this, so I won’t repeat it for the sake of not repeating myself), I have looked for the AI using spells that weren’t filled with mana, or magically creating mana without matching the appropriate orbs, and I’ve watched it for around 100 games now.

@MightyM770: Whenever the game is in a state of pause. I would want to say “This for humans is currently when any animation outside from the board is playing”, which would make sense (as this also includes the flipping of the board), but is inconsistent for different events. Katsu’s first stage ultimate seems only slightly giving AI an advantage. Katsu’s second however gives you control over spells and matches even before you can properly see the board. Because I can’t view the board, I don’t know whether the AI in this case can move before, after, or in sync with humans. In most cases, though, the AI can move quicker, and curiously too: it seems to be VERY eager to. Its normal matching speed is not that high, but when I used Captain Fang’s El Perico, I remember I could always view the board quite some time before being allowed to move by then, and the AI would always have done 1 or 2 matches by that time.

Hopefully you can figure out a consistent way to time the moment when the AI and human regain control over the board and their spells. Good luck :)

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@RuneAngel : I am by no means confirming any glitch I report , they are merely observations that I make and there’s alot of factors we don’t know when comparing what each of us players notice , gears , win vs losses , rating , all of that could affect how the bots we battle against behave no? If you won 500 times and lost only 20 for an example , the bots you battle have the same ratio and are probably really eager to keep it that way :P

As for frustration you claim I had when writting any of my posts , I can honestly say that they weren’t even written the same day I played , because I know better than to rage rant when frustrated lol And I’m not an aggressive player to begin with, I am just puzzled how I went from winning so many times in a row ( alot of these matches I had over 900 hp left ) to being on a massive losing streak no matter how hard I try. As mentionned I always play faster and in most case steal all the best moves when I have the chance , so really I don’t know , maybe I lag ( even though my connection comes out as perfect on ) maybe I just lost the touch. I just want to help the programmers find and resolve glitches/bugs , so I share my experiences and aren’t making any of these up.

Now on that note I haven’t played in a few days so I’ll give it a shot, in the meantime I hope they are looking into the major glitches and bugs a lot of us have been noticing. Some of which you pointed out yourself.

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i don’t like the glicko system on AI opponents and also not on inferno

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It really hurts the player-base when you guys disappear. Let us know if something is in the works or not. When we see the last update was months ago, it doesn’t exactly instill confidence in the future of the game.

Also, some small (but not too small) reward for logging in once a day couldn’t hurt.

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Hi Dan!

We are still working our butts off I promise. The whole company was consumed by PAX preparation, and we all just took our first vacation ever. The clan and event system is way harder than we originally thought and I’m really sorry that I told everyone it would be coming in “weeks.” Whenever something comes up we have to stop development and handle that. (Taxes, talking to media, business stuff, etc.) It’s what is cool and what sucks about being so small. Thanks for taking the time to comment, and also for caring. The second we have something done, it will be on Kongregate.

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Good to hear you’re all still alive! Other than mobile, where do you plan to release the game? It’d be nice to get back into it once there’s a playerbase built up again.

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Bot continuously steal 8 move from me. nice

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1. The Sudden death system isn’t really needed; there is next to no healing in game, it removes any stored energy so someone may ave been about to easily finish someone off a few seconds later. instead, they get hit by one sword and lose, even though they may have had a move speed over double the other.
2. AI difficulty should be based on the bet placed; otherwise, it basically means people only ever have a half chance of winning no matter what the bet is, with the opponents scaling to rank almost precisely. It shouldn’t be the case that the best strategy to make nuggets is repeated losses in ‘training’ to guarantee easy wins in the higher difficulties. This is even more important considering the tiny player-base; according to the Kongregate chat, I’m the only person playing, so the odds of facing anyone who isn’t AI is non-existent.
3. Put simply, the AI cheats. A tenth of a second after a new move appears, be it due to new tiles dropping from the top or someone’s move, they are in there instantly. This may be understandable if they made the move; they could see the consequences of the move before time, but when a new tile has dropped onto the board or the tiles change places/drop after a player move, it wouldn’t be possible to do. On top of that, they seem to barely be effected by yellow attacks.

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Thanks for the reply, andyk!

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Holy crap guys!! What an update!

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Oh wow.

Come back to the game after a break and there’s a complete overhaul it seems, that’s one heck of an update.
Loving all the changes so far.