[Kingdoms CCG] Never a fair freemium game

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Initially I was going to ask something along the lines of why cant this be a fair freemium game, but then I thought about it and realized there is no such thing. Every game that has ever had an in game currency has always made you work 10x harder to get anywhere without paying any money. And I guess that is the point, limit the payless players to the point of where they want to spend money so they don’t have to work as hard.

But the question begs to be asked what if the gold and gem costs of everything in this game was lowered to the point where it seems like I’m not just a straggler. Can’t it be said that the people who are going to spend money on a game like this were already going to do so no matter the cost of in game stuff. For example, A person who wants to spend the kreds to buy gems for a Tier 3 hero is more than likely to still do so if even say the T3 heroes were lowered to 50k. Point being, a person who doesn’t want to grind to 100k will likely not want to grind to 50k either, thus still spending their money either way.

It seems like a reevaluation of the in game costs could do more good than bad. Because realistically, this game has to figure out how to hold onto me, and thats probably not going to happen considering I would never spend money on this game for the sheer fact that I know its holding me back purposely with high in game costs. Its funny because I would really almost be willing to buy gems and things if the prices were more fair. Sounds a little stupid, but if the first thing I feel when I try a game is that you’re a blood sucking dev who is going to try to bleed me dry of my every last penny, (not saying this is how the KCCG devs are) then I have already lost connection before I even had my start with the game.

Without looking hard I can see things that monetarily don’t make sence. For example. The “reward” cards which isn’t really, it only “rewards” you with the option to buy the card. Even then though, Brave Recruit is 5000 gold? Are you serious? You mean to tell me you value this card almost as much as the gold pack? Why not just let us have the card for completing whatever requirement. I was saddened when I saw that after the Story Mode Campaign I just stopped unlocking cards. And then it felt even worse when it said I unlocked a reward card only to find it was never really mine.

18k for Eve boosters? You can bet that I will probably never own a card from that set. It makes no sense considering it comes with the same chance to get rares and epics as the gold booster pack. I mean you don’t see wizards of the coast charging an extra 5 dollars on their new M13 booster sets.

I guess I could go on and on about my own personal opinions and what I think would be right for the game, and honestly if nothing changes well then nothing does. This game otherwise though just reminds me of every other freemium game that has ever been posted on Kon, where just 6-7 months down the road the player base is dwindling and the popularity and gimmick has wore down. It almost reminds me of snatch and running. Get in, charge big, and vanish into mediocrity.

Anyways. I’m pretty interested if there is anyone who put too much thought into it like myself, and maybe have a comment (not directly or directly about KCCG) on the freemium game world.

 
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your argument is invalid, because it ignores the relativity of things.
you say “no like to grind 100k = no like to grind 50k”
your logic is: 2=1

(good post still)

 
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I wouldn’t say its illogical I would say we don’t have enough data to come to a logical conclusion. I guess really I should have created a poll. Because it would be interesting to get even a little information on people who have spent money on the game, and if they would have still spent the money if in game prices were lower. Not that even that information would be grand considering it would be hard to get the masses that play the game to vote on a poll created by a user with less than 10 posts. I would maybe get 10 poll votes. I guess its something the devs would have to actively seek, either way though, that information would be awesome to have and know, regardless of the outcome.

 
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Yeah I also quite heavily had thoughts about freemium content…

In case of KCCG, the farming isn’t THAT bad. Yes, it’s tedious, but there was worse. The problem is that there is nothing to do except farm.

Anyways, my thoughts on Freemium – I’m more biased to the model of “low prices, high sales”, instead of “high prices, low sales” … I can’t backup this with data in the freemium game world, but in any MMO auction this model worked so pretty damn well that any game I played I was swimming in riches. So I can see “low prices, high sales” being translated in a freemium game pretty well. However the game must offer content first. Currently Kingdoms is a bit lacking in that department. But I believe it will be fixed :)

Once we have content, once we have things do, once we have more ways to spend our farmed gold or bought gems – the player base will grow much larger and the pricings, most likely, will get revisited… :)

Basically, now you can earn around 45k/day, if you don’t waste any energy. (That means, you almost don’t sleep and play for around 30/40 mins each 4 hours, with ALL energy upgrades unlocked)
That’s 2/3 eve packs a day. However average player will certainly not farm for that much. For average player you’re looking at 10-15k max, thats still two gold packs. Which is still decent.
The game is young, the farm prices are right tbh, because the developers DO NOT want to flood us with cards just yet, since it will get boring if you get everything fast, since there is REALLY nothing left to do then.

Once the content is created – pvp,guilds, tournaments. Imo the pricing will be heavily changed favoring to flooding players with cards to allow them experiment much more than now :)

 
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I dont think the pricing will change all that much. There might (or should be in my opinion) some other cheaper bundles to buy (best coupled with achieving the silver/gold/purple star status uppon wich there could be additional promos, too), but thats it. Why that, you ask?

1. Players who spent a lot of money and/ or probably a lot more time on the game in the early stages will feel cheated if the pricing and card value overall goes down (even a bit). One cant just go and screw arround with that.

2. The idea behind all the limits of energy and grinding time is to create a fictional feeled card value. Feeled Value = price for singles + pack price/grinding time + playerpool. If you can attain cards easy the card value is low. People own many cards and build good high end decks pretty fast. Thats where it gets tricky:

Many good decks will result in higher competition and wider player pool at the top, wich I like.
But Is it good to have many “perfect” decks? The collecting process is part of the ccg, if it is shortened, the overall value of a good deck will sink. It wont be all that fun to have good deck if its too easy to achieve or if you can just buy it with 10$.

3. The price for a gold pack is nothing really. You could buy 7 packs a day if you really tried hard. As Jeffo explained 2 me, its for generating the initial card pool you can play with. 18k per pack is the actual price they had in mind, wich for now is really too much, since grinding against AI the whole time aint really that much fun.

So what I think is, the additional gold income and funfactor should be generated mostly by tournaments (and to a smaller part, guilds).
There are so many possible options and amazing variety on how to do that only for tourneys I could probably fill 10 pages with (most importantly “high” guaranteed price pools). In my opinion a nice tournament setting will do so much more for this game (Icluding amassing new players) without the need for lowering the pricing.

The only thing really ticking me off right now is the remove of the epic pack . Combined with an unlucky player, a non definite way to get epics could grow really frustrating. And it wont lead to buying more gems, cuz thats not how it works :(

I think there should be an option, uppon achieving some kind of goal ( every 500 wins or smth entirely different) that allows to buy an epic pack.
Or, since the average pack count for an epic to get is 20, there could be some sort of trigger that grants you an epic card in your next pack after 30-40 packs of non epics. If you get an epic b4 that, it is resetted.
That would really really help^^.

 
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I never pay for any games and I don’t complain about pricing (because it doesn’t apply to me), but if I were to pay real money, I sure wouldn’t do it for this game. I do overall like grinding if it’s got variability in it (e.g. Elements), but this game does get boring after the first few days while you get the ropes.

 
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As a newer player (and I made an initial $10 purchase), I struggled a lot wondering if this game was worth my donation. The game has a lot of great incentives, I’m sure is far more reasonable prices compared to similar games and other nifty things in the game, not to mention amazing design. However, my biggest concern as I’m a strategy gamer is playing the game on even playing field with other gamers. A game that thinks it’s ok for users who paid tuns of money or invested tuns of time grinding is fair, really needs a wake up call. That’s bad design. The good news is this game does show potential of somewhat even playing field with the non-human PVP (why is it called PVP btw?). I also agree that the game really needed to unlock more cards in the initial phase. Your just completely stuck in the beginning phases of the game without grinding heavy and some of those ‘unlockables’ should have been free. If not free, let me “duel” the AI to win them or win 100 games doing X for them non currency.

Overall, great game. Nice paying model, but could use some tinkering. Gold-sealed deck/draft tournaments would really help allieviate some of my stress in playing a game against others that grind 24/7 and daddy warbuck type players.

 
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Originally posted by Avsen:
However, my biggest concern as I’m a strategy gamer is playing the game on even playing field with other gamers. A game that thinks it’s ok for users who paid tuns of money or invested tuns of time grinding is fair, really needs a wake up call. That’s bad design.

Dont worry the hardcore player wont upset the playing field in here. You can only play for 3 hours a day max anyway(30min x 6 time a day for a total of 42k a day).

The ppl who invest a lot of money though are another story. While there aren’t many atm, once live play start that will probably change and you’ll see deck everywhere with x4 rejuve pot x4 flashback and x4 all the other great epic. Let’s just hope tournament are sealed like other games do to keep thing fair for everyone.

 
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Keep in mind that there are specific arenas with enforced rules to level the playing field out – this will persist when live play is here as well.

 
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Originally posted by JeffoANTIC:

Keep in mind that there are specific arenas with enforced rules to level the playing field out – this will persist when live play is here as well.

and considering this is the only f2p tcg with a limited ruleset by rarity, and the least grind for cards
that’s a damn lot of entitled whining to be given more stuff for no money

Card monsters? 3 weeks’ grind for a rare, then 2 goddamn months to level it up…unless you pay $10 ofc
UR? You can buy a pack a week if you play 13+ hours a week
CotD? Yeah good luck getting an epic/legendary more than once every two months from drafting… and of course that’s not going to matter because you’re never going to win against people with playsets of $100 cards

The gem pricing in this game and rulesets are exactly what’s stopping it from being pay to win, and the grind for new cards will be a lot more tolerable once there are competitive tournaments/guild events to evaluate your progress better.
Sure, maybe if this was one of those myriad other games with a shit-ton of useless cards and only a few staples the whining might have some merit, but it’s not

If you can’t handle working to collect things maybe this isn’t the right game genre for you

 
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all i see is rant rant rant whien whine whine QQ

but seriously this player base is the whineyest most self intitled player base

player: JEFFO YOU STINK YOU DOTN GIVE US THE WORLD FOR FREE 1/5

^what most of this player base looks like

i on the other hand i find that since EVERYTHING (but realm sworn bard) can be obtained without gems make sit betetr then msot games here (tyrant perhaps?)

allso i currently have 139 gems and ive spent quite a few on singles and ive never bought any kreds so this is the mot player freindly game ive ever played

and your post suggests that they want to hold onto YOU specificaly whitch is simply not the case there will allways be greedy and/or lazy players who will quit a game if it takes a little work whitch cearly this game does

 
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@tlo_seigi – You’ve played/won 4000+ games. People who play a lot should be rewarded. I am asking that it be possible that someone brand new or someone with a small collection have a game mode to play competitively on when real PVP occurs.

@cheeseex – Please try to take the time to read your own posts before you get to throw the ‘everyone complains’ card. I doubt you even read let alone comprehended what I wrote.

 
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Originally posted by Avsen:

@tlo_seigi – You’ve played/won 4000+ games. People who play a lot should be rewarded. I am asking that it be possible that someone brand new or someone with a small collection have a game mode to play competitively on when real PVP occurs.

That’s what the 3 different arena are for. You got the limited one where new player can compete and get the gold for t2 t3 and gold pack. After you got your t2/t3 and some rare you can then jump straight in the epic arena. With the ruleset of 60 card min singleton deck it give everyone a fair playing field and it’s also the best place to farm gold.

I left out the unlimited arena, but that’s where the pay to win ppl gather. It does not have the best payout of all arena (+1 to devs for that) so you really dont have to compete with them if you dont want to and you wont get penalized for it.

 
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..due to the fact there is no actual PVP, this is working dandy. But, the moment this becomes a true PVP, the unbalance will be great.

 
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limited
format

they’re even patching back in bronze arena
dear god

 
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Originally posted by cheeseex:

all i see is rant rant rant whien whine whine QQ

but seriously this player base is the whineyest most self intitled player base

player: JEFFO YOU STINK YOU DOTN GIVE US THE WORLD FOR FREE 1/5

^what most of this player base looks like

i on the other hand i find that since EVERYTHING (but realm sworn bard) can be obtained without gems make sit betetr then msot games here (tyrant perhaps?)

allso i currently have 139 gems and ive spent quite a few on singles and ive never bought any kreds so this is the mot player freindly game ive ever played

and your post suggests that they want to hold onto YOU specificaly whitch is simply not the case there will allways be greedy and/or lazy players who will quit a game if it takes a little work whitch cearly this game does

Whining? Sure I’ll take that badge, but I’m an old school gamer at heart, and forgive me if I don’t understand how this new standard of gaming is making such a huge impact. I came from a time when there was no Pay 2 Win / Freemium games. And quite frankly saw a few games I loved to play go down in the dumps because it was all about making that last penny. Games like Gunbound, hell I remember playing that back when they were on korean servers, and the day they migrated the US players to their own. That’s when the hustle started. I remember playing Warrock in its beta stages and remembering how much fun it was.

Now they are owned by Nexon, and you must rely on NX cash for everything. Also, Battlefield Heroes, you know these people actually charge real money to RENT fake guns on the game, YES, RENT. I could go on, but really it just boils down to this new standard where paying to get ahead on digital games takes priority.

And really, not to be a whiner and a debbie downer, I don’t want to take anything away from the dev, he has created a pretty cool game that they probably worked really hard on. I’m just neutral at this point because I’m not sure exactly what the dev is headed.

Looking at the history of the dev, AnticEnts, looking at the game Platoonz first, you can see right off that some of the top comments are people complaining about how much things cost, and about how they would like a better way to make battle bucks. Moving on to Junk Wars, Its clear the top comments on there are people who are not happy about not getting any updates and the complete lack of support for the game. Apparently hes done with it.

At what point do these “whiners” stop being just that, and start being people with significant and legit problems? The whole point of this was never bash the dev directly (his track record does that well on its own), but more of a logical discussion on why games like this still prosper.

Only time will tell though, I hope the dev sticks this one out and can make it great without putting others at to great of an expense.

 
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I’m amazed the more I play this game, the more amazing AI really is. It’s so rare to see a game like this be still challenging against a computer. I will attest the devs have done a great job here and that making a game like this work is a tight rope walk. One thing for sure, the devs are listening, and that really makes me warm and fuzzy see things going in a better direction.

PS – personal thank you for bringing back Bronze.

 
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IMO PRices have to be high for the sole fact that if you unlock every card you will have nothing else to do and you won’t feel attached to this game. Like post said devs need to catch us first and for a bit till they launch other stuff to do. For the moment you’re playing kingdoms just because you want that card you like so much or you want to complete your collection. If that happens fast and it will if packs are 2k 3k etc the player base will shorten. For the moment pricings are fine and will probably lower once new content is released… if it doesn’t lower then it will make no sense too. For me this pricings are like a filler on an anime. Just wants you to continue on the series by providing you something to watch.

 
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Actually, compared to a physical CCG game, it’s a lot fairer to those who don’t wish top pay. How many physical cards can you get for free? None. How many physical cards do you get for free if you get a few cards and play a lot? None. If you do want to spend money on a physical CCG, you can spend a little and get a small deck to mess around with our you can spend a lot and get pretty much every card. Same logic here, except you can get the small deck for free and grow it by continuing to play (presumably to give the paying players a rush when their uber deck trounces yours ;-) ). The point of playing is to play. If you’re playing because you want to collect all the cards or because you want to be the league champion, then you’re either playing the wrong game or you need to dig deeper into your pockets.

 
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“The whole point of this was never bash the dev directly (his track record does that well on its own), but more of a logical discussion on why games like this still prosper.”

That, sir was rough.

A kinder, and I believe fairer way to look at this was Antic went from a true play to win style game, to a make a quick buck game to a much better freemium and content rich game.

My main points to back this up are that almost everything is obtainable with in game currency and that the trickle of premium currency is pretty reasonable. And as far as updates: they seem to be rolling out pretty steadily and the Antic guys listen in chat to the bug complaints. And general QQ’ing.

Endonisia, you see there history as dragging them down, I see this game as an improvement. $100 says I am younger than you :)

 
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If you think this game is expensive and/or requires a lot of grinding, then you saw nothing. Try War Metal Tyrant or Alteil, they take ridiculous prices and insane amounts of grind to whole new level.
Also, this game has completely unique feature (as far as card games go) of non-sucky AI. This alone is worth some money IMO.

 
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I honestly thought this game was extremely fair seeing as you can buy all the heroes and every card in the game except realm-sworn bard without donating. And you get enough free gems to either buy some good cards or heroes, or in my case all of the energy upgrades to help make gold faster. But then again I played tyrant before this and that game wanted you to donate for about half of the good cards in it. ( and the most expensive cards were $22 per card )
So my expectations of what is fair in a ccg might be low after that.

 
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I just started yesterday so I can’t say much for this particular game. But I will say those prices I do see (Both gold and gems) are pretty dang high. And as you said OP, when I completed some of the hard campaigns and got nothing for it, I was rather disappointed. I was hoping for some type of card.

As for Freemium games: I usually end up liking these games to a certain point, and I usually play them differently. when it comes to games I love being on top and fighting my way up. I never do this in freemium games though. Because in order to get to the top, you usually have to have something money only, or you have to buy your way up, because the people on top have much easier access to things than you do. In freemium games I usually don’t end up caring about rankings or points and usually just go and complete the missions, or do jobs, etc. After that I just wait for new missions, while grinding for gold. After that I usually quit because the game gets boring.

 
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Honestly, I was very agry with the OP when he first posted this. I mean, if he wanted a place to posthis critique on freemium games in general, he could have chosen plenty of places. Instead he chose one that, I think, is one of the fairest I have seen, at least so far. That really does make him look spoiled and a whiner.

Yes, maybe eventually the devs will mess up, go too far, stop caring and grab what they can and run; MAYBE that will happen; but right now, I don’t see any valid critique other than that it’s a freemium game, and OP hates freemium games.

As others have pointed out, the current gold prices aren’t that bad; someone who plays only casually can have plenty of fun with various T1 heroes and decks, and then once he starts Arena plays, easily get hold of any T2 hero. And T2 heroes, again, are powerful enough that they can face T3 ones on even footing.

Sure there is “grinding”, but whereas in most games “grinding” looks like: click the monster, spam the same keys, yawn for 5 minutes, repeat; here there is an element of strategy to the matches, and if you get bored of one, you can always try new deck builds and hero combinations. I’m not lying when I say that I do enjoy the game when I play it.

“The “reward” cards which isn’t really, it only “rewards” you with the option to buy the card. Even then though, Brave Recruit is 5000 gold? Are you serious? You mean to tell me you value this card almost as much as the gold pack?”

Anyone who played a CCG could tell you that a rare card is worth more than a random pack.
As for having to buy a card, you also unlock the option to buy a card more than once. I think that’s worth more. The majority of the unlockables are universally useful 1-mana cards, significantly good that they should be in any deck, but not so good that you can build a deck solely from them. I think they were an excellent choice for this purpose.

“I’m an old school gamer at heart”

Then (assuming that you bought your games yourself, back then) you would understand better than anyone that paying a reasonable fee to play the game isn’t such a far fetched concept.

Here’s something else you’re missing: the “paying” players aren’t significantly better off than you are. They still can only access random pack draws, or try to catch the occassional feature. The only exclusive card, the Realm-Sword Bard, is cute and useful enough but it does not really change the game, at all. And of course -at least for now – gems can be acquired by non-paying players too. I even like the mechanic that the more you buy from a pack, the less valuable it becomes (more duplicates). I think this is a good model that can please old and new players too.

 
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You want a game like that? Go make one. These developers have lives, families and a gigantic budget spent on random takeaway food for the office. They aint getting rich like EA of this game now are they? They don’t have a few million in the bank, the money they gets keeps the game going. So yeah shut up and get over it or don’t play your choice.