[Legacy of Heroes] LoH Class Analysis

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LoH Class Analysis – From a CotD Standpoint


I know perfectly well that there are already threads (on the LoH forum though, rather than here) going into detail on the differences between the four different classes (http://www.lohgame.com/forum/showthread.php?243-A-Tutorial-For-Newbies and http://www.lohgame.com/forum/showthread.php?50-Badges-Effects-and-Costs specifically), but I got bored and felt like creating one of my own here. I plan on going into more detail than them though, discussing how classes interact with each other and what classes are most like those from Clash of the Dragons. All descriptions (aside from quotes) are my own opinion, however, and may be disputed. In fact, feel free to dispute, as I personally have experience only as an Acolyte and only know how the other three are theoretically supposed to work.

To begin, there are no card effects that are specific to a single class. Specific card effects with a badge symbol activate if you have that badge, even if that badge is level 1, so any card effect can be activated once you get to level 55 and spend the skill points to get all four badges to at least level 1. Therefore, the tactical differences between how classes use cards is based upon the class badge effects, as those differ between each class. In general, the “primary” badge of a class has the most useful effect, encouraging the use of cards with badge designations to match their class.

All classes have their own strengths and weaknesses. There is no best or worst class. Though it could be said that the additional shield of Strongharms doesn’t stop Firesculptors from being effective against them in PvP, it should help against most quest enemies. Likewise, even though Firesculptors tend to be the most powerful PvP class with their high damage output, there are plenty of cards (some often used by quest enemies too) that can reflect damage. Non-Stops may be able to play more than one card per turn on occasion, but there are also occasions where you don’t want to play extra cards, such as when ploys are in hand. And, naturally, Acolates can either be the weakest or strongest depending on the specific circumstances of the battle.


Strongharm

Strongharms have “Power” as their primary badge.

Originally posted by LordBucket:

Total strongharm damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 power badge:

Strongharm damage is entirely linear, scales badly with card damage, and is ineffective against armored opponents.

Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 5500 damage, for an average damage of 5.5 per attack for all considered scenarios.

If your favorite part about Clash was the ability to prevent yourself from taking damage, whether by increasing absorb or increasing shield, this is the class for you. The Power badge of Strongharm classes provides raw stats, increasing both damage and shield by up to 2, effectively resulting in a 4-card advantage each turn a Power card is played. Strongharms may be effective when using Power cards alone, but their other badge effects make using cards with another badge or two in addition to power useful, with critical strikes from Sculpting to unstoppable damage from Reflex to playing random NPCs from Psych. This diversity makes Strongharm the most balanced class.

Strongharms traditionally focus on using cards with high shield, reducing damage dealt to them as much as possible. This way, even if a small amount of damage is dealt to the opponent, there is the chance of taking none in return, eventually stalling out a victory. Healing cards can be used to regain the cards that have been played. The benefit of shield is most obvious when the opponent uses powerful attacks, so the entire shielding is used, often from cards with high power and low shield, leaving an opening for counterattack. Of course, no amount of shield can do anything to lessen the effect of unstoppable damage.

Because of the high focus in shield and usefulness in attacking overall, Legacy Strongharms are most similar to Clash Sentinels.

Strongharms have a natural strength against Firesculptors and a natural weakness against Non-Stops.

(Sadly, as the most balanced class, Strongharms are often also seen as the weakest as they do not have any specific power to make them impressive. Firesculptors have double damage, Non-Stops have forced depletion and extra turns, and Acolytes have healing and forced banishing of allies. Strongharms, meanwhile, get nothing but additional damage and shield, both of which already exist on every card. If there is a Strongharm with an example of how they can consistently be just as useful as any other class, please say so.)

 
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Firesculptor

Firesculptors have “Sculpting” as their primary badge.

Originally posted by LordBucket:

Total firesculpter damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 sculpting badge, and assuming even distribution of percentile rolls:

Not only is firescuplter damage universally higher in all situations (which was expected) firesculpters can also continue to be effective against more armor than a strongharm, and their damage scales better with better cards.

Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 7360 damage, for an average damage of 7.36 per attack for all considered scenarios. On average, amongst all considered combations of base damage and armor, firesculpters do approximately 34% more damage than strongharms. However, that scales upward with armor of target. Against zero armor opponents, firesculpters will average only 15% more damage. Against 1 armor opponents, firesculpters will average 18% more damage. Against 3 armor, 22% more. Against 4 armor, 45% more damage. Against 5 armor, 90% more damage. Against 6 armor…infinitely more damage

If your favorite part about Clash was dealing high amounts of damage and watching the opponent’s cards flick away into the depletion pile in a single powerful strike, then this is the class for you. The Sculpting badge of Firesculptor classes places a high focus on pure offense, with up to 2 additional damage and a chance to double the damage dealt. Just like Strongharms, Firesculptors can be effective using their additional badges. However, all of these effects, from Power increasing critical hit chance to Psych giving a chance to banish to Reflex giving as chance to play an additional card, focus purely on playing offensively.

Firesculptors traditionally act their strongest against brawl bosses, where an instance of double damage (extra bonus if a critical hit occurs too) could be the finishing blow the rest of the team needs. However, in one-on-one fights, Firesculptors are a very fragile class. The longer the fight goes on, the less likely they are to win, considering that this class should always be on the attack rather than the defense. This leads to difficulties when the opponent has high shield and healing, but strategies that take time to build up effects can be thwarted before they come to completion. Many Sculpting cards also have effects such as dealing additional damage or always being a critical hit.

Because of this high focus in attack while disregarding defense, Legacy Firesculptors are most similar to Clash Assassins (not Pyrelords; the only connection between them is the theme of fire).

Firesculptors have a natural strength against Non-Stops and a natural weakness against Strongharms. The weakness against Strongharms appears to only be in theory though, not in practice, making this class often seen as the most powerful and most commonly used.

Originally posted by FinalCheetah:

Firesculptors are definitely not weak against Strongharms and this is coming from a Sculptor that’s been playing 80-120 level pvp in this game. Sculptor’s x2 damage can quickly overwhelm everyone but Acolyte.

Originally posted by LordBucket:
  • Like FinalCheetah says, firesculpters being weak to strongharms is just not true. +1 or +2 shields can’t stand up to double damage.
  • I think the fragility of firesculpters has been seriously overstated. How are they fragile? In pve, brawl bosses routinely do 15-20 damage. It’s not like the extra point or two of shields or replenish that other classes get makes any difference. And in pvp, they do enough damage to overcome the shields that other people put up. How is it “fragile” to do 8 damage and put up zero shields against an opponent that only does 6 damage and puts up two shields?
  • Double damage may make most amounts of shielding effectively useless, but even a level 10 Sculpting badge only gives a 15% chance for double damage. On average, that does not come up to much extra ‘per turn’ (If an attack deals 10 extra damage because of double damage, that is like dealing 1.5 unavoidable damage per turn, and there’s always a chance that the double damage will occur on something with lower damage instead).

     
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    Non-Stop

    Non-Stops have “Reflex” as their primary badge.

    Originally posted by LordBucket:

    Total nonstop damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 reflex badge:

    This chart is fairly simple. It is linear, like strongharms, but with a base minimum damage from their depletion effect.

    Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 8300 damage, for an average damage of 8.3 per attack for all considered scenarios. 50% more than strongharms, and that’s not even taking into consideration a nonstops ability to play multiple cards per turn.

    If your favorite part of Clash was stacking up buffs to deal both consistent and sporadic damage to your opponent, perhaps in the form of Damage Counters on your enemy and Magic Counters on yourself, with cards to make use of them, then this is the class for you. The Reflex badge of Non-Stop classes places a focus on damage over time, not affecting the played card itself but forcing the opponent to deplete up to 2 regardless of whether any other damage is dealt, and adding a chance to play an additional card. Other badge effects, from Psych making attacks unstoppable to Sculpting copying attacks to Power dealing additional damage, can be used under specific circumstances and don’t have to have a Reflex badge too to be of use.

    Non-Stops traditionally focus on cards that make use of Willpower Counters (WCs). The battle could begin with stalling, gaining WCs while distracting the opponent with automatic depletions. After enough counters have been gained, the battle style would then shift to the offensive, sacrificing the WCs to increase the damage of specific attacks. When the opponent has low shield, a powerful attack is played. When the opponent has high shield, an attack with unstoppable damage is played, making the opponent have to guess what kinds of cards are in hand. Many Reflex cards can also reduce damage taken, avoid damage entirely, or let additional cards be played, letting the stalling go on even longer.

    Because of this tactical buffing while still dealing damage with WCs, Legacy Non-Stops are most like Clash Pyrelords.

    Non-Stops have a natural strength against Strongharms and a natural weakness against Firesculptors.

    Originally posted by LordBucket:

    • From badge level 4 and up, nonstops have just as much of a power badge damage bonus as strongharms and it’s only one or two points or damage.
    • Since nonstops have gaurunteed armor-ignoring damage from deplete, they can sit back with high armor/healing cards and wear away their opponents. Regardless of the extra 1 or 2 armor bonus strongharms get from their power badge, in actual practice nonstops are far more functional as a high shields “tanking” class than strongharms are.
     
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    Acolyte

    Acolytes have “Psych” as their primary badge.

    Originally posted by LordBucket:

    Acolytes are bit more difficult to compare. I think acolytes have a decent concept going, but it’s rendered ineffective by the fact that everyone has neighborhood watch. If I were to propose a change for acolytes, it would be to remove that card from the game. It both counters and duplicates acolyte abilities. Acolytes would be much stronger if everyone in the entire game couldn’t do the same things they do and render half their abilities nearly useless.

    On the other hand, this problem may diminish in time as new cards are released, provided that more cards aren’t released with ally banish. Fewer people will use Neighborhood Watch when it does half the damage of anything else in their deck.

    If your favorite part about Clash was the unparalleled usefulness of NPC cards, then this is the class for you. In fact, without any attributes to worry about, NPCs are even more useful in this game, as the power damage that they deal (short of any buffing) is the same as that of an attack with the same stats, and they still get shuffled back into the deck. Acolytes make use of these cards to their fullest potential, while preventing the opponent from doing the same. The Psych badge for Acolytes is unique, as it is the only one with three effects. While not as reliable as the primary badges for the other classes, Psych attacks can deal up to 2 extra damage, heal up to 2 cards, and have a chance for banishing an ally from the enemy deck. The remaining badges are all focused on allies too, from Reflex and Sculpting badges giving a chance for allies to be unstoppable or copied respectively. Power badges add additional shield, reducing damage taken so any damage received then has a lower chance to deplete an ally.

    Acolytes traditionally focus on allies and banishing. Because of an Acolyte’s natural ability to heal cards, the deck would be filled almost entirely with Psych cards, with other badges of Reflex and Sculpting generally present only on allies (Shimmerstorm). When not dealing damage with allies, many psych cards can be used for reflected damage, banishing, weakening enemy attacks, and even more healing. Acolytes, like Non-Stops, can make good use of WC strategies too. Meanwhile, there is a chance for an enemy ally at random to be banished with each Psych card played, which is especially useful in brawls.

    Because of the focus on complete uniqueness, not often seen as strong as the other classes yet with certain situations where nothing could be better, Legacy Acolytes are most like Clash Druids.

    Acolytes don’t have any particular advantages against any of the other classes; however, with their attempt to dominate with allies and get rid of opposing allies, it could be said that acolytes have a natural strength and weakness against each other.

    Originally posted by LordBucket:

    • Acolytes, so far as I can tell, are the strongest pvp class. I routinely lose to acolytes even 20 levels lower than me, and others I’ve spoken to have said the same. Saying they don’t have any particular advantage against anyone just doesn’t seem accurate. They appear to have an advantage against everyone, but only in pvp.
    Originally posted by RedeemedWahrior:

    lastly, I found acolytes to actually be the easiest to fight against, the simple reason being the existence of neighbourhood watch. Because that card pretty much renders allies useless (especially with the recent change stripping them of badge effects as well), people tend to not use a lot of allies in pvp, which renders aco ally badge powers pretty much moot. Their recovery 1-2 also seems about as useless as the nonstop deplete 1-2 at endgame. They are pretty much nothing to do with their badge powers in pvp at all, effectiveness being almost entirely determined by what cards they have in their deck. (granted if you dont have nwatches and the acolyte is loaded up on allies i can see why you would have a problem, but other than that…)

     
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    I agree with your overall analysis. Good Observations :).

     
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    Firesculptors are definitely not weak against Strongharms and this is coming from a Sculptor that’s been playing 80-120 level pvp in this game. Sculptor’s x2 damage can quickly overwhelm everyone but Acolyte.

     
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    Kind of agree that the descriptions here are more what the classes are “supposed to be” rather than how they actually are.

    A few observations:

    • From badge level 4 and up, nonstops have just as much of a power badge damage bonus as strongharms and it’s only one or two points or damage.
    • Additionally, the value of shields is a bit overstated. Point for point, replenish is almost always better than shields because both unstoppable and depletion effects ignore shields.
    • Like FinalCheetah says, firesculpters being weak to strongharms is just not true. +1 or +2 shields can’t stand up to double damage.
    • I think the fragility of firesculpters has been seriously overstated. How are they fragile? In pve, brawl bosses routinely do 15-20 damage. It’s not like the extra point or two of shields or replenish that other classes get makes any difference. And in pvp, they do enough damage to overcome the shields that other people put up. How is it “fragile” to do 8 damage and put up zero shields against an opponent that only does 6 damage and puts up two shields?
    • Since nonstops have gaurunteed armor-ignoring damage from deplete, they can sit back with high armor/healing cards and wear away their opponents. Regardless of the extra 1 or 2 armor bonus strongharms get from their power badge, in actual practice nonstops are far more functional as a high shields “tanking” class than strongharms are.
    • Acolytes, so far as I can tell, are the strongest pvp class. I routinely lose to acolytes even 20 levels lower than me, and others I’ve spoken to have said the same. Saying they don’t have any particular advantage against anyone just doesn’t seem accurate. They appear to have an advantage against everyone, but only in pvp.
     
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    lol my experience seems to be quite different.

    like the others said, i dont see firesculptor as having any weakness whatsoever lol. afaik, the 2x damage and +crit things occur BEFORE enemy shielding, so its not really weak against strongarm. and yea its not like their defenses are that weak either.

    on the other hand, as a nonstop i’m finding that i can’t sit back in duels. neither the guaranteed deplete of 1-2 cards per turn nor the damage debuffing/recovery/shield cards are helpful when the enemy is throwing out ridiculous damage at you from scoreboards, painful memories, and other ridiculous epics. Especially if the enemy is a firesculptor. To be honest I don’t really see any advantage for this class in pvp once endgame hits, since their reflex badge forces them to play key cards (like ploys or survivor effect cards) out of their hand while their guaranteed deplete 2 doesnt really help much unless the opponent is for some reason using a stalling strategy despite all the high damage epics flying around.

    lastly, I found acolytes to actually be the easiest to fight against, the simple reason being the existence of neighbourhood watch. Because that card pretty much renders allies useless (especially with the recent change stripping them of badge effects as well), people tend to not use a lot of allies in pvp, which renders aco ally badge powers pretty much moot. Their recovery 1-2 also seems about as useless as the nonstop deplete 1-2 at endgame. They are pretty much nothing to do with their badge powers in pvp at all, effectiveness being almost entirely determined by what cards they have in their deck. (granted if you dont have nwatches and the acolyte is loaded up on allies i can see why you would have a problem, but other than that…)

    and well, every class but firesculptor actually gets screwed on some of their secondary badges. Making an attack unstoppable as a badge power is a joke. The percentage may be higher than the crits or the 2x or the copies, but its worth is far far less since if you’re a sane player, you’ll almost never ever play a high damage attack vs a high shielded enemy (which is the only time being unstoppable gives you a decent boost). so what ultimately results is like a 3% chance per badge rank to do a few points of extra damage, since you’ll be using your low damage cards when the enemy is heavily shielded, and your high damage cards when the enemy has low shields.

    As for outside of pvp, I’m still finding that firesculptor is the best in terms of tearing the boss down, regardless of the boss type since their so-called low defense isn’t really much lower than the other classes. Acolytes become more useful because brawl bosses tend to be loaded up on allies, while strongarms… well not really sure what they are good for tbh lol.

    nonstops are probably the closest this game has to a support class, with their ability to copy bils (so 4 recovery instead of 2) and fire from withins (making brawl bosses play that relatively-weak card instead of their actual cards which do 123890123 damage is awesome) and deplete through high armor/big sticks. playing multiple cards per turn also lets them gather wc faster and play more tag team ups for the real damagers (firesculptors) to use.

    so.. some suggestions for better balance:
    - make the firesculptor fire badge give NEGATIVE shield, or better yet self deplete or chance of taking 2x damage from the next threat. (You may think having negative effects on a primary badge is ridiculous, but nonstops already have that with their primary badge forcing them to play ploys out of hand.) that way they really do fit their description as a glass cannon class, not one with overpowered damage but only a few points of shield less.
    - fix nonstop haste proc to either draw new cards or give an option to not play a card.
    - Make DEFENSIVE epics. Just about every epic and legendary i see is catered towards building a super offensive deck like knees and elbows, moxies missiles, scoreboards, blast radius, devastatrix, etc. Would be nice to have epics/legendaries catered towards building defensive decks, and in fact most of these cards do have simple defensive equivalents. Eg. Scoreboard does +2 depletes on every deplete on the enemy, could have an epic that just does -2 instead for every deplete on self (but not actually allowing recovery, cause that risks making a cycle deck). Blast radius does 2x damage for X turns, could have an epic that halves incoming damage for X turns.
    - give strongarm a chance for 2x shielding or reducing damage intake by a % or even a super small chance of complete damage negation (like in element of surprise). Granted in early and mid game their +2-4 attack/shield on every card is awesome, but in late game when everyone is throwing around stupidly high damage attacks with copies and 2x damage and what not, this isn’t really impressive. a small chance for defensive boosts would make them better stallers in pvp and actually give them a role in brawls (a stone wall of sorts that usually survives till the end while holding bils in hand to ress the more fragile classes). And for one thing, they would actually be stronger against firesculptors in pvp if something like this was implemented, while still remain weak against nonstops since deplete passes through the shields anyway.

     
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    Wow.. well reasoned and expressed critique that doesn’t devolve into childish name calling.

    Wow.. well reasoned and expressed critique that doesn’t devolve into childish name calling.You are aware you’re on teh internets right?

    Wow.. well reasoned and expressed critique that doesn’t devolve into childish name calling.You are aware you’re on teh internets right?:D

     
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    I agree that firesculptors’ badges seem to be the most useful. Double damage is huge, and the non-main badges have relevant effects too.

    Acolyte’s reflex and sculpting badges are useless in most contexts. Allies are bad in pvp, bad in some brawls (susie comes to mind), so most people don’t run allies unless they’re super powerful (abyss for example). With no allies, acolytes’ psyche badge is also diminished, since the banish is useless. Even if people used allies, neighborhood watch does a great job protecting against pesky allies already.

     
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    Firesculptor double damage is way to much, hardly strognharm defense works when you take 30 damage in a single hit (and 30 is not quite high for fire scupltor) also attack with 100% or double damage stack with firesculptor double damage stack making it even stronger, firesculptors should have the chance to do incresed damage and not double damage, maybe a chance to do 2-3 or 4 more damage, and that is actually quite high when a deck had from 35-42 cards, only 4 more damage is 10% of normal deck insted of killing you in a single blow

     
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    Acolytes are definitely very specialized. I think that given a focused ally deck and no opposition, they can be the most powerful class in the game. Sadly, Abyss, Neighborhood Watch, and even the banish from opposing acolytes, tends to neuter the acolyte ally ability somewhat. Without allies in the mix, Acolytes are woefully weak. So I guess they’re balanced over the ally axis.

    Strongharms have a reliable arithmatic progression of damage and shields. This makes them quite potent in the early game, but I think in the long run, a point of damage here or there won’t matter as much as other class abilities, so I see them as balanced over the time axis.

    Non-Stops have the benefit of the extra attack chance (which is lessened by not being able to hold Ploys, or being forced to play into firewalls, etc.), and some slow but steady damage. I initially thought the guaranteed depletion would be a powerhouse, but it’s certainly not as good as the healing that bosses have. Still, a reasonable PvP class, and quite balanced all around.

    Firesculptors are definitely the powerhouse potential. The standard extra damage isn’t worth much, but when you start stacking 2x damage and crits, some lucky badge activations can easily 1-shot or 2-shot any PvP foe. The chance to banish is a nice bonus too, since constant recovery seems to be a theme. The only real downside of Firesculptor is the low proc percentage of their overpowered abilities, but that’s certainly necessary to keep them from being far and away the best class. I’d say they’re balanced by random percent chance to fire badges.

     
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    Another thing to consider in the class balance is what cards are badged for what abilities. I play as a non-stop, but most of the cards I put in without my badge (and even some with it) have sculpting.

    Firewall, Bathe, Icy Resolve, Fiery Reflection are all in my deck and not my badge. Dual badged is Black White and Red and most good allies for me.

    Fire from Within, Immolate, Spitfire, and Dragon Punch are also slightly overpowered, Painful memories is also OP (and I have no idea why it is sculpting and not Psych, because it is associated with Helios isn’t enough of a reason).

    I can’t think of another badge that has such high powered cards as well as the best synergy with it.

     
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    Strongharms have a reliable arithmatic progression of damage and shields. This makes them quite potent in the early game, but I think in the long run, a point of damage here or there won’t matter as much as other class abilities, so I see them as balanced over the time axis.

    Strongharms scale very badly. Firesculpters and nonstops both have similar raw damage progression, but strongharms lack their other damage-dealing benefits. From badge level 4 and up, nonstops get exactly as much of a power badge damage bonus as strongharms. Strongharm damage bonus from power badges is exactly the same bonus that firesculpters get for their sculpting cards, except firesculpters also get a chance for double damage. +2 compared +2 * 2. And nonstops, while they get 10% less raw damage bonus from their primary badge than strongharms get from their primary badge…the nonstops damage ignores damage mitigation. +2 damage that can be reduced by armor and damage mitigation doesn’t compare well to 1.8 damage that ignores armor, ignores damage reduction effects, and doesn’t trigger damage reflect effects.


    Comparison of strongharm/firesculpter/nonstop damage from primary badge only, assuming max level primary badge using a card with only that badge, average damage over 100 attacks assuming even distribution of probability rolls, and for all combinations of card base damage from zero to four and target armor from zero to six.

    Total strongharm damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 power badge:

    Strongharm damage is entirely linear, scales badly with card damage, and is ineffective against armored opponents.

    Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 5500 damage, for an average damage of 5.5 per attack for all considered scenarios.


    Total firesculpter damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 sculpting badge, and assuming even distribution of percentile rolls:

    Not only is firescuplter damage universally higher in all situations (which was expected) firesculpters can also continue to be effective against more armor than a strongharm, and their damage scales better with better cards.

    Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 7360 damage, for an average damage of 7.36 per attack for all considered scenarios. On average, amongst all considered combations of base damage and armor, firesculpters do approximately 34% more damage than strongharms. However, that scales upward with armor of target. Against zero armor opponents, firesculpters will average only 15% more damage. Against 1 armor opponents, firesculpters will average 18% more damage. Against 3 armor, 22% more. Against 4 armor, 45% more damage. Against 5 armor, 90% more damage. Against 6 armor…infinitely more damage.

    So, no surprise. Firesculpters do more damage. We knew that. Maybe how much more is a bit of a surprise…but even more surprise is that even nonstops, who are not particularly well known for damage dealing, actually do more “average” damage than strongharms, due to the innate armor-penetration effect of their depletion:

    Total nonstop damage against armor, over 100 turns, assuming level 10 reflex badge:

    This chart is fairly simple. It is linear, like strongharms, but with a base minimum damage from their depletion effect.

    Adding up all values on chart, we get a total value of 8300 damage, for an average damage of 8.3 per attack for all considered scenarios. 50% more than strongharms, and that’s not even taking into consideration a nonstops ability to play multiple cards per turn.

    Strongharms do by far the least overall damage of these three classes.

    And to “make up for it” they apparently get:

    shields

    The problem is that +2 shields is just not very valuable, and doesn’t scale with anything. Firesculpters get double damage. Nonstops get to play a second card. Give firesculpters and nonstop better cards and their badges give them more benefit. Strongharms have the same bonuses regardless of other considerations. The problem is already apparent now, and it will only get worse as the game progresses and new cards are added. What happens 6 months from now when strongharms play their 10,10 card for their primary badge and do 12 damage and get 12 shields…and firesculpters play a 10,10 card for their primary badge and do 24 damage and get 10 shields? That extra 2 shields is not going to matter. Same situation for nonstops: they’ll play their 10,10 card and then play a second 10,10 card for 20 damage and 20 shields. What exactly is the benefit of +2 sheilds again?

    Also, every class in the game eventually gets at least one and in some cases two armor penetrating abilities: unstoppable attacks, unstoppable allies or deplete effects that ignore armor. Two shields isn’t worth much to begin with, but this makes it worth even less as the game progresses.

    It’s debateable when compared to acolytes because of the variable value of banishing allies from an opponents deck, but overall I’d say strongharms have the worst primary badge in the game.

    Firesculptors are definitely the powerhouse potential. The standard extra damage isn’t worth much, but when you start stacking 2x damage and crits, some lucky badge activations can easily 1-shot or 2-shot any PvP foe.

    Not much I can add to this. Lots of people have pointed it out. But one additional factoir rarely considered is that their high damage means they tend to remove mementos from opponents more quickly than others.

    Acolytes are definitely very specialized.

    Acolytes are bit more difficult to compare. I think acolytes have a decent concept going, but it’s rendered ineffective by the fact that everyone has neighborhood watch. If I were to propose a change for acolytes, it would be to remove that card from the game. It both counters and duplicates acolyte abilities. Acolytes would be much stronger if everyone in the entire game couldn’t do the same things they do and render half their abilities nearly useless.

    On the other hand, this problem may diminish in time as new cards are released, provided that more cards aren’t released with ally banish. Fewer people will use Neighborhood Watch when it does half the damage of anything else in their deck.

     
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    I actually thing that things are pretty fairly balanced (though I agree that FS and NS are “better” classes).

    The thing about Neighborhood watch is that, at best, you get 4 of them. You can potentially have MANY more Allies than that (especially if you use Shimmers, which is like 5 allies in one). As time goes on, and people have more Ally slots unlocked, I think Acolytes will even themselves out.

    I think of Strongarm as Sentinels from Clash of the Dragons – awesome in draft, but only “okay” outside of it. Assumably at some point, they’re going to release some cards to even out the fact that Strongarm is a bit on the weak side (like how Flower of Chivalry in Clash doubles Sentinel attack damage).

     
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    I still say that FS > NS though. While it is almost always a good thing to do 2x damage, double card play is a double edged sword that very commonly hurts yourself. not counting the minor inconvenience of depleting more cards per turn, a nonstop with high haste proc rate and a deck full of reflex badge cards cannot reliably use any ploys or hold on to timing-specific cards like Last Ditch Effort, since they cannot choose not to play a card.

    In fact you can abuse this in duels right now. If you see a nonstop play 3 cards against you, he has no nwatch in his hand because his hand is EMPTY, so feel free to unleash the allies like Function and Form.

    Granted, right now theres a neat card “The Abyss” that can replace using Nwatch ploys, but I imagine as more and more useful ploys get added, nonstops are gonna sorely miss out on having this part of gameplay. And right now nonstops are already the most susceptible against Last Ditch Effort, with their auto deplete and inability to use Not so Fast properly to banish large numbers of cards.

    It’s also annoying in brawls when you’re low on cards and the rng tells you “SELECT AN ADDITIONAL THREAT” and you’re like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lol. Also makes nonstop one of the hardest classes to ress simply because if their hand is empty when they die, 1 bil isn’t gonna cut it. As soon as its their turn they will try to draw 3 cards and get killed doing so since bil only recovered 2.

     
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    Some really great points here. I’d like to talk more about allies in PvP and echo what others have already mentioned (quite succinctly). Right now it would appear allies can be a risky and liable strategy. Just one card alone (neighbourhood watch) can hose an ally based deck. With the simplified aim of the game to deplete your opponents deck before they do yours, getting your ally countered can be a game breaking tempo loss, as not only do you do no damage on your turn, you are left open for a counter attack leaving you way behind in the damage race. Add to this, in the acolyte mirror, the player with no allies has a distinct advantage, means the inclusion of an ally based deck is highly risky but can be a potentially strong strategy. In my opinion, this adds an interesting tension, as playing allies can be strong but also risky. Playing a firesculpting deck there is no such weaknesses.

    Right now the firesculptor class is arguably the strongest. The class has no wasted badges (they are all strong and scale extremely well together) and has access to a lot of powerful offensive spells. Some of the most powerful cards available give a firesculpting bonus, something i find quite inexplicable as the class is already very good. If developers want to balance the game they can either make the stronger classes weaker or the weaker ones better. Having your favorite class nerfed isnt very exciting, so buffing the other classes could be an option. An idea would be to have something like principle class cards. These would be cards with a powerful bonus effect, but only if your primary class is the same. This could add class diversity and balance to the game as well as create interesting deck decisions (as opposed to jamming all best cards into deck).

     
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    So, here’s what I find to be the general consensus of classes:

    Strongharm – no significantly good points, useless unless strongharm power badge effects are buffed

    Firesculptor – arguably the best due to spurts of double damage and extremely powerful sculpting-badged cards

    Non-Stop – arguably the best due to constant depletion regardless of damage dealt and chance to play multiple cards (playing multiple cards is normally good, only not good when certain cards such as ploys want to be kept in hand)

    Acolyte – arguably the best in quests due to healing and enemy ally banishing, useful in brawls due to enemy ally banishing, useless in PvP due to the existence of The Abyss and Neighborhood Watch.

     
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    That’s about right except for this:

    Originally posted by Dragonalx:

    Non-Stop – arguably the best due to constant depletion regardless of damage dealt

    This constant depletion is just 1-2 cards. It does not scale well with increasing card levels. Even with multiple cards played, that caps out at 6 cards max since you cannot play more cards than are in your hand. (and afaik, things like scoreboard don’t amplify it). Thus the constant depletion is as useless as strongarm’s 2 attack 2 def. Nice at first, useless at endgame.

     
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    Judging from how often I lose a match I’m dominating against the Gingerhaired Men because of a 9% double damage chance, I can only imagine what PVP is like.

    No competing if you’re an Acolyte right now when your healing and shields get blown away, or if you attack second and have half your deck taken out in one hit.

     
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    Thus the constant depletion is as useless as strongarm’s 2
    attack 2 def. Nice at first, useless at endgame.

    I’m seeing a lot of complaints from nonstops, but I just don’t see it. The numbers are small, but it’s gaunanteed damage. If a match goes 5 rounds, that “useless” abililty of yours did 9 damage. Every class has at least two benefits to their primary badge effect. One related to damage-dealing, and then “something else.” Out of all four classes, the nonstop damage-dealing benefit is very obviously the best because it’s immune to mitigation.

    This constant depletion is just 1-2 cards. It does not scale well with increasing card levels.

    But the “play a second card” bit does scale. Nobody’s “damage-dealing” part of their primary badge scales. At max badge levels, strongharms get a fixed +2 damage to attacks. Firesculpters get a fixed +2 damage to attacks. Acolytes get a fixed average of +1.5 damage to attacks. And nonstops get a fixed average of +1.8 gauranteed damage that isn’t attached to attacks at all and cannot be blocked.


    If you see a nonstop play 3 cards against you, he has no nwatch in his hand because his hand is EMPTY, so feel free to unleash the allies like Function and Form.

    Sure. Provided you’re not already dead from the fact that the nonstop just played three cards in one turn.

     
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    Not to mention, if they played 3 cards, their shield is probably really high at the moment

    The Abyss should have its effects changed, Imagine if there was a card that said As long as this card is in your deck, you cant draw Tactical or Martial attacks

    Also N.Watch should no longer negate the ally, it should merely banish it after its played

     
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    Originally posted by RedeemedWahrior:

    I still say that FS > NS though. While it is almost always a good thing to do 2x damage, double card play is a double edged sword that very commonly hurts yourself. not counting the minor inconvenience of depleting more cards per turn, a nonstop with high haste proc rate and a deck full of reflex badge cards cannot reliably use any ploys or hold on to timing-specific cards like Last Ditch Effort, since they cannot choose not to play a card.

    Alternatively I find that playing two cards allows me to get another neighborhood watch into my hand sooner (churn through the deck if you will) and allows more chances to get the “right” card to counter an opponent’s play. Against brawls that are NPC heavy I find this to be very advantageous.

     
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    Dragonalx, its a very nice post! :D Thanks for sharing :)

    Sincerely
    ~ Sleepingpill

     
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    Originally posted by Talamare:

    Not to mention, if they played 3 cards, their shield is probably really high at the moment

    The Abyss should have its effects changed, Imagine if there was a card that said As long as this card is in your deck, you cant draw Tactical or Martial attacks

    Also N.Watch should no longer negate the ally, it should merely banish it after its played

    I’d tell either negate and deplete it (instead of banish) or negate only abilities (for example, Shimmerstorm will deal 4 atk, gain 2 shield, but won’t add tokens).