[Vorp!] Hirudo Works Too Well

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So with the Hirudo being free to play twice now, it’s only natural it shows up EVERYWHERE. This is kinda troublesome, as a good Hirudo counters the vast majority of the playable cast while still eating alive turrets.

It has zero need for aim. It is able to heal itself and has potentially the best damage mitigation tool in the game right now. It can attack multiple targets. It can deal very high single-target damage. Most importantly, Thrustbleed makes a mess of any attempt to fight back, reducing combat options dramatically.

Its weaknesses include low health and short range. Both of them are offset by lifesteal, invulnerability, good speed, and the ability to circle a foe and continually damage them, safe from their attacks. In the hands of a skilled player, these weaknesses may as well not exist.

So how does it fare against other ships? Let’s see…

VS ANT: If the Hirudo hits a trap mine, it might spell trouble if the ANT can quickly Sting Missile it. Otherwise, ANT is screwed. Thrustbleed won’t let it turn to fire back.

VS Jabberwocky: Even worse. The Jabberwocky has to start the fight and score a direct hit with Vorpal Line. Thrustbleed will keep it from turning, which completely cripples its DPS. The Shrapnetic Blades might get something done, but it’d be too little, too late.

VS Iron Wolf: The Wolf doesn’t need to aim its rockets and can stall the fight with Defensive Territory. However, CLaWs suck and the rockets do half damage at knife-fight range, and good luck aiming the Alpha Cannons with the dreaded Thrustbleed in place.

VS Undulorean: A toss-up. If Insoulator is used too early, Undolorean can simply explode Hirudo. Otherwise, Insoulator blocks the brunt of Capacitor Overcharge and Flux Hole, and we’re at the same thing as before – Thrustbleed won’t allow for an effective defense.

VS Shinobi: Tricky. A good Shinobi could gun down the Hirudo with a few precisely-placed blasts, and the Shinobi’s burst damage is difficult to anticipate with the Insoulator. However, the Shinobi still needs to aim – something the Hirudo ignores. It would depend on first strike, really.

VS Angel Fire: Maybe if the Angel Fire refuses to use Vorpal Burners, it might have a chance. Chances are the Angel Fire will kill itself for the Hirudo long before Trail Blazers can do enough damage to drop the Hirudo into the kill range. At least there’s a chance for a mutual kill.

VS Hirudo: Seeing two Hirudos fight is the stupidest thing to watch. That is all.

VS SS Venture: The Venture’s damage output is pretty lousy, and it’s easy to block the torpedos. At least it can hold out for help, but in a straight fight it’s doomed.

VS Xxggghhr’thulhu, AKA Squid: Somewhat tricky. Squid’s not too shabby in knife-fight range between the storm and the horrors. Most of Squid’s damage is over time, though, and it’s not too hard to move out of storm range or simply ignore Squid and provoke it to chase. Thrustbleed, again, makes it difficult to land Shogg’spurt. The horrors also have a shorter range than Shadow Circuit and Nectron Overload.

VS Torpaz: Not happening. The Torpaz can’t take a hit, armor or no armor. Its loadouts require the Hirudo to stand still or stop boosting to do optimum damage. It’s not too hard to get around the Torpaz’s quirky effective range and fry it, especially since lolThrustbleed and forward-firing left-click loadout.

VS Circe: The orb is not going to hit the Hirudo more than twice with the static. The Bindu Bolts won’t get gimped by Thrustbleed at least, but that and the orb comprise all of Circe’s offense. At least it can escape if it’s in a bind.

VS Turrets: Pfft. The Hirudo circle-strafes and eats them alive with little damage taken. That it can do so on top of having at least a good if not favorable matchup against every other ship up there is crazy.

Maybe I’m missing something, but a good Hirudo can do all of that with contemptuous ease, and does it without taking any significant damage since it’s the only ship that does damage AND heals at the same time AND screws up most attempts at fighting back.

“But there are plenty of Hirudos that go 0 and 10!” Yeah, that’s why I said a GOOD Hirudo. Let’s be fair, no ship is instawin by itself. I know I can’t pull this off as a Hirudo. Hirudo, however, has the best tools for dealing with just about any enemy in the hands of a skilled player, and it’s pretty hard to argue that when every other game has a Hirudo with the lion’s share of kills mauling your turrets.

Anyone else agree? Disagree? Can we do this without resorting to namecalling or “You suck, play better noob” and keep it civil and maybe come to a possible solution that would make the Hirudo more reasonable overall?

 
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For the most part I’ll agree. But I also don’t see A good Hirudo winning the game. And this a team game.
Some ships I won`t go near a Hirudo 1 on 1.

 
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everything you list is based on the fact hiru is perfect, but the is far from it. i might make note of the fact this is a team based game, so saying in solo fights it can beat anything is trying to remove a part of the game while still comparing it in game. every ship listed has the ability to escape and fight back. There are many things about hiru that you fail to list, such as clearly defined rings that show exactly where it will deal and and where it will not. the invulnerability is short lived with nothing to aid it in escape. when it comes to speed ant is natrually faster, jabber’s vorpline dash can slow and can get it out of a tight spot, shinobi teleports AND stealths, angel has a slow, undu has a time slow and a dash. i could make a list of how these ships have an advantage over hiru but i wont, i will simply say that each ship has its own style and weakness. i might also add that your basing this on if they are GOOD pilots, which i will say any ship can be awesome with good players behind them(save maybe angel but that is my own opinion).

 
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I’m not disagreeing that it’s a team game, but the Hirudo’s presence complicates things. Now the game’s about disabling their Hirudo while yours kills everything remotely dangerous to the other ships. There’s no rock-paper-scissors about it, a well-piloted Hirudo is going to beat or at least screw up everything else because it has the best tools for the job.

Also, I did mention some of the things others could use against the Hirudo. Please read all of my post – something like the Undu’s time warp is offset by a timely Insoulator negating all the damage that could have been done during that period of time.

 
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But you don’t have to kill the Hirudo to win the game. And if you really want to kill it, gang up on it.

 
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Most the time I just ignore Hirudo. 90% of the time, I just fly right past it as if it isn’t even there and play my game around the Hirudo. I can usually escape/avoid the hirudo so it doesn’t bother me and I usually can’t hurt it, so I don’t bother me. In all my games, I may have been killed by a hirudo five times, but I also may have killed five hirudo so really it just irons out. I do think it needs a small nerf, but I wouldn’t say it is greatly superior to other ships. A bad player feeds with Hirudo, a good player owns with Hirudo. On that same note, that can be said with any ship.

 
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The problem with ganging up on the Hirudo shows itself if it’s eating one of your turrets and going for a battery. You send one ship, it’s probably going to lose. You send two ships, you’re in trouble because now you need two ships to deal with one guy, which means the Hirudo’s teammates can go blow up something else.

I generally just run away from Hirudos since my preferred ships, the Iron Wolf and Torpaz, don’t deal with it so well. Running away doesn’t really stop it from eating my base though.

Still though, a good Hirudo player makes the game a lot more complicated for your team since your only options are run or gang up on it, neither of which are favorable. The former means the Hirudo gets free run of the area, the latter means a decent team can exploit that opening and do something useful. It doesn’t need to die in the sense that you can win a game without killing a single player, but that’s not exactly the most plausible thing that can occur.

I keep hearing this whole “Any ship can be good with the right player!” thing from everyone, but I’m not wholly convinced, mostly because of the lack of real arguments for it. Angel Fire, for instance, does more damage to itself than its enemies most of the time. I would like to know how that can perform on the same level as a well-played Hirudo. Don’t you think there would be a large difference between a good SS Venture and a good Jabberwocky? There ARE limits to what each ship can accomplish based on their loadout. My whole issue with the Hirudo is that its limits surpass most of, if not all, the other ships. That’s a problem – then we get to deal with tiers. Oh, tiers…

I’d be interested in seeing the Hirudo get nerfed a little bit if those other three ships are still a long ways off. I really don’t think it needs lifesteal – no other ship does that. Even if it’s thematically appropriate, it’s still pretty powerful. What if the lifesteal was cut and the energy cost reduced to compensate? In addition, Thrustbleed is rather ridiculous in its ability to shut down counterattacks. It’s a very powerful passive that takes little effort to apply. Should it be reduced? Perhaps replaced? If one of the new ships compares favorably against it, I wouldn’t mind waiting a little bit to see how well it would work.

 
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VS Hirudo: Seeing two Hirudos fight is the stupidest thing to watch. That is all.

Lol that’s so true. Both Hirudos keep trying to circle the other even though it doesn’t do anything since both have auto-aim…

 
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Originally posted by Lichice:

The problem with ganging up on the Hirudo shows itself if it’s eating one of your turrets and going for a battery. You send one ship, it’s probably going to lose. You send two ships, you’re in trouble because now you need two ships to deal with one guy, which means the Hirudo’s teammates can go blow up something else.

I generally just run away from Hirudos since my preferred ships, the Iron Wolf and Torpaz, don’t deal with it so well. Running away doesn’t really stop it from eating my base though.

Still though, a good Hirudo player makes the game a lot more complicated for your team since your only options are run or gang up on it, neither of which are favorable. The former means the Hirudo gets free run of the area, the latter means a decent team can exploit that opening and do something useful. It doesn’t need to die in the sense that you can win a game without killing a single player, but that’s not exactly the most plausible thing that can occur.

I keep hearing this whole “Any ship can be good with the right player!” thing from everyone, but I’m not wholly convinced, mostly because of the lack of real arguments for it. Angel Fire, for instance, does more damage to itself than its enemies most of the time. I would like to know how that can perform on the same level as a well-played Hirudo. Don’t you think there would be a large difference between a good SS Venture and a good Jabberwocky? There ARE limits to what each ship can accomplish based on their loadout. My whole issue with the Hirudo is that its limits surpass most of, if not all, the other ships. That’s a problem – then we get to deal with tiers. Oh, tiers…

I’d be interested in seeing the Hirudo get nerfed a little bit if those other three ships are still a long ways off. I really don’t think it needs lifesteal – no other ship does that. Even if it’s thematically appropriate, it’s still pretty powerful. What if the lifesteal was cut and the energy cost reduced to compensate? In addition, Thrustbleed is rather ridiculous in its ability to shut down counterattacks. It’s a very powerful passive that takes little effort to apply. Should it be reduced? Perhaps replaced? If one of the new ships compares favorably against it, I wouldn’t mind waiting a little bit to see how well it would work.

i could give you a list on hirudo’s weakness, the reason behind its life steal is its low energy and defense. truly a hiru that just rushes into an enemy group will die. also the purpose of taking a turret and having to send 1 or 2 people, this is regular in game tactics one team has to win after all or we could just call it STALEMATE instead of vorp. there are a lot of ships that are better at base breaking then hiru. if you look at energy hiru has the lowest in the game. also your previous statement of ss vs jabber, one is a tank melee and the other is support, are you looking to simply make every ship the same? i could give you a list right now of every weakness the hiru has, when to attack and not attack, which attack does the most damage and why and how to minimize it. one could do with with every ship. ill say this everyone cries about the autoaim on that ship so i say this to you, does your ship not have engines? can you not move it? “a good hiru player makes the game a lot more complicated for your team” this can be said of any good player. the only thing i can agree with is angel needs a buff other then that every ship has its niche, what its good at doing, if need it more team support or lone wolf. to put it to you bluntly you have trouble with hiru? learn to master jabber.

 
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Low energy and “defense” (nonexistent due to a lack of armor stat – if anything, Hirudo has the “best” defense because it can be invulnerable for a time) does not compensate for being able to completely negate the energy cost of your own loadout while simultaneously doing damage. That’s something the other self-healers can’t claim.

I’m not complaining about the idea of forcing 2v1s so much as I am that the Hirudo is so ridiculously good at it.

Yes yes, the Venture’s support, the Jabberwocky’s a melee. This isn’t League of Legends though – the support thing only goes so far. The Venture’s heal and shields will be on cooldown while the Jabberwocky is still smashing through everything. Tell me, which is making the bigger contribution? I’m not saying the Venture is useless or that support isn’t useful, I’m saying that the role the Venture is intended to occupy places limits on it that it can’t really exceed, which puts it on poor footing with other ships, like the aforementioned Jabberwocky and Hirudo. It’s not an even 20% output from every ship – some ships are going to contribute more to the overall team effort than others. This wouldn’t be so much of a problem if there were more than eleven ships, really. Instead, we’re stuck with the same few team compositions.

I don’t think anyone is crying about the autoaim. I’m fine with it, really. It does create interesting balance problems for the Hirudo that no other ship has to deal with as a result, but the concept itself is fine by me. Yes, you can move – to an extent. You’re severely underselling Thrustbleed here – being unable to turn effectively can hamper retreat and will hamper your ability to fight back.

And can we PLEASE stop saying “It’s the player, not the ship!”? It’s a small enough community that I’ve played against the same people who do dramatically different in different ships. One game they’ll be going to town on the enemy, the other game they’re in a bind because they swapped ships. The ship’s got as much to do with winning as the player behind it.

Lastly, the Hirudo outspeeds the Jabberwocky. If the Jabberwocky doesn’t get a direct hit with Vorpal Line (also assuming a timely Insoulator doesn’t negate all the damage), all it has left are Shrapnetic Blades to do damage to the Hirudo, because Thrustbleed + circle-strafing means the Jabberwocky is not going to get into ramming range again. The poor speed means that the Jabberwocky is going to die if it runs, but the Hirudo can disengage at will. Jabberwocky doesn’t counter Hirudo – it’s the other way around.

 
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While I agree with you Resgrath, I think the issue is that Lichice is trying to make is that most ships have a ship that counters it.
I know when I use a SS Venture, that if the squid or wolf come at me, I’m dead. I just have no chance to flee. But I usually even manage to get away from a Hirudo.
And as far as complicating the game how about a good ant player?

I think we’ll see what its really worth when it goes out of rotation, and how well it dominates when only the “good” players are using it.

 
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That’s…more or less my point, actually. It’s incredibly difficult to counter the Hirudo, which in turn counters nearly everything thanks to its blend of damage, survivability, speed, and movement reduction. That doesn’t seem quite right.

Here’s hoping the next free rotation doesn’t have the Hirudo again. That would be horrifying.

 
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While I agree to most of these, what is making it worse are the addition of OPs and Techs.

Point 1 – OPs = so most ops are ok in the right hands, esp. deport (seen people carrying that most of the time, who wouldn’t want a free trip back to base without getting killed and all?). Deport’s weakness is the timer it takes while you stop (not entirely bad as 3 secs is sometimes more than enough to get out of dodge). Against most ships, you can still kill them (even Undu’s Time Flux can be negated via direct hitting weapons like lasers, etc). But, Hirudo’s insoulnator just practically move its out of OP into the realm of imbalanced. I mean, invulnerability + warp = 100% escape.

Point 2 – Techs = scary enough to see Hirudo stack dmg techs, even worse when it can chase you down to the ends of the ship via AB techs. Hirudo is fairly fast in itself, but when it is able to chase down ANT like nobody’s business, something is definitely wrong.

 
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Erm… having run Hirudo some of the time, I must say Undulorean can create major problems for it. And, as you mentioned it, so can Squid, as long as it stays in melee range (it’s heal is stronger than Hirudos since it doesn’t cost energy).

And Shinobi… you can’t run away. So like for all ships, it can catch you at low HP.

I’d agree that Hirudo needs a slight nerf… but it definitely isn’t uncounterable =p.

 
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Hmm, reasonable counters, but still depends upon the situation.

Against Undu = If Hiru mistimed the insoulnator, it takes full dmg to OC. Unfortunately, Shadow/Necro works well against (and with) Undu’s time flux.

XX = while damage-wise, XX is stronger, you got to make sure Hiru stays in the AOEs longer to do the necessary dmg.

Shino – Almost like xx, a few good hits will force hiru away and can easily be chased, on the other hand, to fully hit Hirudo, you tend to keep a certain distance to aim and dish out the dmg, something the Hirudo will try to exploit by hugging.

Yet, after all the OP talks, nobody ever said anything about Necro being so buggy in terms of it’s range (where it’s quite a cause for concern due to it’s damage – it tends to stretch further than the radius.)

 
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Best counter against Hirudo? Run like hell.

 
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Perhaps if the game had more “hard crowd-control” like stuns and silences, the Hirudo wouldn’t be so intimidating. Compared to other games of its type, this game is very, very light on crowd-control effects. Slows are very thinly distributed, and there’s no such thing as a stun. The Undu’s 90% slow is still only a 90% slow – as mentioned by Darth Sirov, it does nothing to stop a ship that does damage instantaneously, such as Shinobi and Iron Wolf’s lasers and Hirudo’s auras.

 
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Originally posted by Lichice:

Perhaps if the game had more “hard crowd-control” like stuns and silences, the Hirudo wouldn’t be so intimidating. Compared to other games of its type, this game is very, very light on crowd-control effects. Slows are very thinly distributed, and there’s no such thing as a stun. The Undu’s 90% slow is still only a 90% slow – as mentioned by Darth Sirov, it does nothing to stop a ship that does damage instantaneously, such as Shinobi and Iron Wolf’s lasers and Hirudo’s auras.

Sure it’d fix Hiurdo… but it would also screw the SS. The SS is already nerfed as is… you’d have to give it a rather significant fix-up if you were to add more Hard CC.

 
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Fine by me. I like the SS Venture – if anything, I think it ought to be cheaper so more people start playing it since you can’t really go wrong with it. Seeing it get a buff wouldn’t be the worst thing to happen.

 
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If they add more Hard CC, then the SS would just need a resistance to CC or have the Revorparator reduce any CC for any ship that gets healed.

 
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The Revorporator change sounds pretty cool. It would definitely make it more crucial to a team.

 
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The Hirudo is OverPower and EndGamesRyan knows it.

 
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as far as necro going beyond its range, i could say the same for several abilities. those being circe sphere and ss phaser.

 
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Originally posted by Resgrath:

as far as necro going beyond its range, i could say the same for several abilities. those being circe sphere and ss phaser.

But those skills dont have health regeneration.

 
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so because they dont have health regen its ok to go beyond their designated target area? all things considered omen doesnt have a preset amount of targets it can hit(if i remember that right) and circe also has a mist which reduces damage as well as a teleport, while ss on the other hand has a shield to reduce damage and increase damage enemies take along with a heal that regens alot more then it takes to use it. that being said “life steal” should not be under the scrutiny of what should be “fixed” as far as going outside their bound range.