[Vorp!] Regarding Balance, a Peek at Ship Statistics

38 posts

Flag Post

Hi everyone! After seeing a lot of debates going on here in the forums, I made a blog post about this on the Official END Games blog at http://endstandsfor.blogspot.com/2012/10/regarding-ship-balance-in-vorp-space.html Enjoy!

 
Flag Post

A very rational and logical explanation behind ship balance. However this is the interwebz no room for logic and reason get out of here! J/K :)

On serious note K/D is one measurement, there 2 other factor I consider when choosing a ship. Winning and biggest factor is Bang! earning potential. I will sacrifice my K/D ratio to get a win since that gives me ELO points and bang. Now that assists will finally give bang SS starting to look appealing. For me a match that takes more than 15min and I earn less than 50bang I consider a failure. I consider it successful match when i win and earn 80-100+ bang a match not counting 1 time achievements or the daily 50b reward. I played over 400 matches and there a definitely ships that I don’t choose since their bang earning is weak, angel fire and turbo hawk come to mind.

Side note with angel fire replace fiery death skill having to die to use a skill is stupid.

Since you guys track structure kills, drone kills, and kill streaks. Setup a filter of only lvl 30 commanders and see how much bang each ship earns per match and win % that might give a clearer picture of which ship have stronger influence in matches.

 
Flag Post

Nice post and statistics! And I feel a lot more comfortable seeing the K/D ratios being closer now. =)

 
Flag Post

Hi Ryan. So you are the bad balancing guy who dont know how to balance ships right?

I give you a chance.

You play with 2 of your Developers against me, solarcloud and Skydark.
We play the “well balanced ships”. I play Jabber. Skydark plays ANT, Solarcloud use what he want.

You as Developer must know how the game works and how the Ships work. So i think you arent the biggest fails playing this.

So you can play Ships like you wish. But i think you play the “overpowered Ships”. So you start against us with Shinobi, Iron Wolf and whatever else you want. Maybe your lovely well balanced Venture that is soooo hard to kill and soooo good in support.

To give you a nice reason to do this: I spend your game 200$ when we do this and you win against us.
IF you dont win, we 3 get 10k Bang each and you stop balancing the Ships with stupid useless statistics.

 
Flag Post

I’ve played much worse-balanced games, so I’d be more appreciative of them, Masakarii. You haven’t played MOBAs until you end up in one where one guy can solo your entire base while another guy can solo your entire team while a third one snipes everyone for tons of damage while stealthed. (HINT: Avoid Avalon Heroes.)

I’d also like to point out that right now, you’re being a massively entitled douche. Where do you get off addressing anyone like that? You really think that demanding the developers’ time in such a rude manner is going to get you what you want? Really, think about it – why would they accept? There’s no guarantee you’ll spend $200 if you win – if they bothered to take this challenge, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

As uncivil as he is, though, Masakarii does have a point. There’s plenty of us that would love to see you guys play and prove the truth behind your statements. If it’s not too much to ask, perhaps you could set a time each day to play a few rounds? The game’s small enough that it shouldn’t be too hard for the majority of players to get matched into your games. You say you keep playing, but I’ve never seen any of you around, which implies you’re doing it on a closed server. That’s nice for initial testing, but the target audience is us, not you, and it would be beneficial for everyone if you could try out what you test against us.

 
Flag Post

Lichice, ive played this game nearly from begin. And in the beginning the game was nearly perfect balanced.

You had Players like Kascas, who went for your base only until he reached level 3 or 4. But he had massive problems destroying everything when an Angelfire or Shinobi defended against him. Both ships were very very strong in the own base because they were able to kill every ship in a 1on1 when theres no Depot in range.

Now you cant stop ANT destroying your Base anymore. Only Jabber has the Chance to do that. But only when Jabber is level 7. But at that time ANT is level 5+, too. And can teleport back over and over.

Circe is the same. Skill Circe to level 5 and you can go for Batteries without diing. An enemy can fight you while you can deal damage to the Enemy structures. And when you are around 30 % HP with Circe you can teleport back. Structure is nearly destroyed in that time.

And now you have the Hail godness of Developers you like so much complaining about k/d statistics and kills/match.
What helps you killing when you loose a match with 28:0? NOTHING

I could say now the game is about destroying the Enemy core. How about watching the statistics about destroyed structures of all ships?
Im shure ANT is on Top Rank 1 far away to Circe. And behind those 2 there is nothing for long time. As thierd will come the Fish or Jabber.
Nerf ANT and Circe now because of that? Maybe yes!

And another thing: I heard the DEVs complaining about creating the Best MOBA game ever with the best community ever. But atm they do the opposite of that.

Just 1 word to the OPS: OPS are like somebody else said already: The most important LOUDOUT in the game now.
Teleport is unbalancing everything. Teleport is way OP.

1 Word to the Techs: All Techs are kinda useless compared to AB Power. Speed is everything in this game.
And i tested a lot other Techs, too. I got over 20 from nearly every Tech. From some Techs i got 30+ already.

Last word: ANT is the most important Ship ingame now to win a match. When 1 Team got a good ANT, they win.
When both Teams dont has ANT or Circe, opness of the Ships in every Team dices the win out.

Ah and forgot: When i say i donate 200$ then i do it. I dont care about some bucks. But you are right, the target of that offer was to get the DEVs loosing their face!

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Masakarii:Circe is the same. Skill Circe to level 5 and you can go for Batteries without diing. An enemy can fight you while you can deal damage to the Enemy structures. And when you are around 30 % HP with Circe you can teleport back. Structure is nearly destroyed in that time.

Have you ever tried defending a turret?

It makes it nearly impossible for Circe to take it down. Why? Because all the Bindu Bolts head for you instead, and that isn’t enough.

If you want to prevent it from being taken down, it’s the same strategy as for Ant, you have to set someone to guard the turret. Of course, this leaves the attacker at an advantage because he’s not obligated to come back, but you can use the time he tries to attack to try an attack of your own too.

If anything, the problem with ANT is that he’s too fast and has that teleport… thus… he can’t really be taken down easily without being ganged up on.

If anything, the problem with Circe is that it escapes too easily… but you have to remember… it can’t chase for peanuts… whereas Ant can. If you nerf Circe’s escapability, you are going to have to start making it better at killing players instead. After all, Circe has the lowest K/D.

What helps you killing when you loose a match with 28:0?

Use the team feature. Appropriately, with 2 good people, you can beat even a team with 4 other good people. How? Ant for one player, a good defender for the other. They balance out, and the Ant takes out both emitters (but especially the back one) ASAP. Then you wait and help your team destroy batteries slowly, and take out the core. It destroys teams even made of people who are good.

I could say now the game is about destroying the Enemy core. How about watching the statistics about destroyed structures of all ships?

Of course it’s about blowing up the core. Definitely =).

Im shure ANT is on Top Rank 1 far away to Circe. And behind those 2 there is nothing for long time. As thierd will come the Fish or Jabber.

Circe is second to last, and has approximately a 1/1 K/D ratio. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t get OP in the hands of an expert… I usually have a K/D ratio in about 4/1 ratios… but it isn’t like running ANT, definitely. The only ship with a worst ratio is… Angelfire.

Nerf ANT and Circe now because of that? Maybe yes!

Ant, yes, Circe… well… isn’t this the same problem we are having with Hirudo and deport? Furthermore, isn’t Circe less of a danger than Hirudo? Which is more likely to kill you and your buildings. Hirudo.

Just 1 word to the OPS: OPS are like somebody else said already: The most important LOUDOUT in the game now.
Teleport is unbalancing everything. Teleport is way OP.

Okay so what if we lengthened the casting period of deport, and teleport. Would that work?

1 Word to the Techs: All Techs are kinda useless compared to AB Power. Speed is everything in this game.
And i tested a lot other Techs, too. I got over 20 from nearly every Tech. From some Techs i got 30+ already.

Last word: ANT is the most important Ship ingame now to win a match. When 1 Team got a good ANT, they win.

I assure you, running a Circe, I don’t want AB Power. It’s nice compared to some of the other, but what I really what is Cooldown. That way, my Omen Spheres come up faster and I can actually take down a battery before a smart opponent shows up. Then again, that’s just my thoughts on it.

When both Teams dont has ANT or Circe, opness of the Ships in every Team dices the win out.

How so? What does Circe do to unbalance the game? Take out a turret every 180 seconds? Most ships can do that already. Ant I understand… it rips to shreds the back of your base with almost no counters. But Circe? Nah. You really need to be Level 7 before you start risking that stuff (Q to 3, W to 3, R to 1), and even then, if someone catches up to you, the turret isn’t down.

Ah and forgot: When i say i donate 200$ then i do it. I dont care about some bucks. But you are right, the target of that offer was to get the DEVs loosing their face!

Explain.

 
Flag Post

Just remember, we are all biased. Everyone has their own opinion, likes this, dislikes that. That is the reason for using statistics. Leave the balancing to the people with the real numbers. Of course we can mention some feelings about bad balancing, but nobody can say that he or she is right just because they played more than 1000 matches. We players don´t have enough scientific distance to the subject, numbers have.

You can argue that they don´t look at the important numbers, but again, you don´t know if that is true. It is a bit narrow-minded if you blame the developers for destroying the game just because it moves into a direction you don´t like. Others might enjoy it even more.

And dont forget the new ships, turbo hawk seemes to be very good against jabber and can get to attacked sturctures very fast. Let´s see what´s coming in the future. The statistics will be interesting.

 
Flag Post

How about we see the stats of what types of ships were in winning games. How many game was an Ant in that won? How about if there was an Ant and a Circe?

If you see that ships or combos were winning more games then others, then that would also be an indicator of how good the ships are.

 
Flag Post

Well, not hating on Masa and all, he’s a fun guy to be with sometimes, but if you add the fact that he’s mainly a PVP player, you’ll see why his explanation would make sense to a PVP perspective. Surrendering takes the fight (and bloodlust) out of him, ANT just attacking structures and not players (technically escaping while he’s coming,etc… same with Circe). You can see where this is leading.

 
Flag Post

You are right with that, Darth.
But isnt the PVP perspective what makes a good Multiplayer game?

@Awesome you are right with CD Techs on Circe. Give Circe the way to destroy any defense tower in under 10 seconds. When you use Sphere you need just 6 seconds.

but back to the topic.
Just as example: You all know those games were 1 Player got 40+ kills?
In those games fresh newbies joined a match with a free ship.
At the moment were we had around 200+ Players in here were ships like Hirudo and Jabber for free.
Those Newbies died with those ships around 20+ times in 1 match.
Now add those 20 death to their kills: k/d rate of 0,1 maximum.
Now try to get that k/d rate up to 5. You need 4 good Players to compensate 1 Newbie.

And then watch the Kills/Match statistics.
a standart match of 25 minutes good Players have around 10-15 kills.
Most ships are only very good behind Level 11.
But in all those games were the surrender Mama calling system votes you end up after 10 minutes.
In 10 minutes you are maximum Level 10. More around level 7 or 8.
Until Level 7 there are ships like Angelfire, Iron Wolf and Shinobi who got a maximum of fast DPS running on a minimum of Enemy Ship Energy ( nobody skills more Energy first ).
Its easy for those ships to make kills in the beginning. But later, when Ships are around level 14 they got massive more Energy. But you in your Iron Wolf cant deal more Damage. It stays on same from Level 7-15.
That means in fast games those Ships make massive kills. In slow games other ships makes more kills.
But were you can find that in the statistics?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Masakarii:

You are right with that, Darth.
But isnt the PVP perspective what makes a good Multiplayer game?

Well then you’d have all the ships be basically the same then. Bursty or DPS chasers. Look at the rest of the ships, besides Venture, Circe, and Ant. What are they? They are bursty or dps chasers. It’s incredibly boring to play against only bursty or dps chasers, I must say.

That’s why I don’t care about non PvP ships. They let the game have variety.

@Awesome you are right with CD Techs on Circe. Give Circe the way to destroy any defense tower in under 10 seconds. When you use Sphere you need just 6 seconds.

How many seconds can ANT destroy it in (about 6). How many seconds can Jabber destroy it in (about 9). How many seconds can Hirudo destroy it in (about 11). There really isn’t much of a difference.

Just as example: You all know those games were 1 Player got 40+ kills?

I’ve never been in a game like that. Ever. I’ve been in a match where somebody got 17 kills, but never 40.

Now try to get that k/d rate up to 5. You need 4 good Players to compensate 1 Newbie.

In K/D ratio, yes. But not in winning. That’s why it’s important to base ‘winning’ on something other than K/D ratio… because otherwise everybody would be a Shinobi (whose K/D ratio exceeds the other ships).

a standart match of 25 minutes good Players have around 10-15 kills.

Against a nooby team, yes. Against an okay team? Not a chance. Look at the matches you played against me today. You didn’t get more than 4 kills in either. And neither did the Shinobis, for that matter. These were 30 minute long games.

Sure, they might be better than average, but that means average would have to have a pretty low skillset.

Most ships are only very good behind Level 11.

This I doubt. Here’s the level I look at where ships become ‘good’.
Ant – 4/6
Jabber – 7/9
Hirudo – 8/9
Angelfire – ?
SS_Venture – 6/9
Iron Wolf – 5/7
Shinobi – 7/8
Circe – 7/8
Undulorean – 5/7
Turbo – Dunno (haven’t played enough against).

That most definitely isn’t level 11.

But in all those games were the surrender Mama calling system votes you end up after 10 minutes.

Against a team with full allies of noobs, yes. Against a team with at least one other good person… probably not.

In 10 minutes you are maximum Level 10. More around level 7 or 8.
Until Level 7 there are ships like Angelfire, Iron Wolf and Shinobi who got a maximum of fast DPS running on a minimum of Enemy Ship Energy ( nobody skills more Energy first ).
Its easy for those ships to make kills in the beginning. But later, when Ships are around level 14 they got massive more Energy. But you in your Iron Wolf cant deal more Damage.

Then why was the highest kills I’ve seen in a match from an Iron Wolf, mostly in late-game?

The reason is because he played it smartly.

It stays on same from Level 7-15.

Iron Wolf???? No, not at all. Damage, yes. Survivability… not at all.

That means in fast games those Ships make massive kills. In slow games other ships makes more kills.
But were you can find that in the statistics?

Not as far as I have found. The best late-game sweeper is Xxggghhr, for sure, no contest (because it’s DPS always goes up). The next one is probably Undulorean or ANT.

What’s the most survivable ships though at that point? They are Jabber, Circe, Hirudo, and… Iron Wolf.

Late Game, Iron Wolf trades off it’s damage for Survivability. That’s not a nerf. It’s a shifting playstyle.

If you want a ship that gets great damage late game, play Xxggghhr. It does that. Iron Wolf is a bit more conservative in it’s playstyle… it’s not nerfed.

 
Flag Post

To quote you would spam the hole thread, TAO. So i make it short:

1. You are wrong
2. You are wrong
3. You are wrong
4-10. You are wrong

If you would think deeper about more tactical points and not just 1 everytime…..

Just as example: I made my 50 kills with the Fish. I made 46 kills before with Jabber. I made 45 kills before with ANT. 38 Kills with Shino. 37 Kills with Jabber. 34 kills with Angelfire. 32 kills with Venture. And just 25 kills were the highest ive ever get with Iron Wolf.
And you know why? Because Iron Wolf dies fast and will die hard in a 1 vs 2 without Teleport OPS.
Before i go for a kill i think about “can i die when i go there?” and not “wooot just 10%, i will get him for all costs”.
Because when i die, i have to wait 30 seconds while my Team got 1 ship less defending the own base.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Masakarii:
1. You are wrong…

I’m not going to believe I’m wrong you unless you provide some backing, Maskarii.

If you would think deeper about more tactical points and not just 1 everytime…..

I do. That’s one of the things I’m good at, generally.

Just as example: I made my 50 kills with the Fish. I made 46 kills before with Jabber. I made 45 kills before with ANT. 38 Kills with Shino. 37 Kills with Jabber. 34 kills with Angelfire. 32 kills with Venture. And just 25 kills were the highest ive ever get with Iron Wolf.
And you know why? Because Iron Wolf dies fast and will die hard in a 1 vs 2 without Teleport OPS.
Before i go for a kill i think about “can i die when i go there?” and not “wooot just 10%, i will get him for all costs”.

Well perhaps you aren’t as good at Iron Wolf then compared to your other ships. Or perhaps, it’s because you were getting the kill streaks on people who weren’t very good, and iron wolf isn’t as effective on new guys.

Look at the posted statistics. Iron Wolf is second in K/D. Iron Wolf is second in Total Kills. It can’t be that poor if it’s getting such a high statistical ratio.

Because when i die, i have to wait 30 seconds while my Team got 1 ship less defending the own base.

This isn’t just you in Iron Wolf though. This happens to everyone, in every ship out there.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Sangophage:

Of course we can mention some feelings about bad balancing, but nobody can say that he or she is right just because they played more than 1000 matches. We players don´t have enough scientific distance to the subject, numbers have.

For the most part, I agree with you. Without the statistics, we can’t get that distance. With the statistics, we are not only armed with objective data (whether or not we use it objectively is up to each individual), but we can’t forget some of the people who have played 1000-umpteen matches. Some of them might see things in the game that don’t show up in the statistics, and then we have to intelligently reconcile both. I want to point out that I’m not agreeing with sensationalists like Masakarii, but we should still be listening to the players that make thoughtful comments on balancing. Keynup makes a good point about things that didn’t show up in the statistics affecting the match. I would like to know if a low killrate SS Venture really makes their team more likely to win.

Originally posted by Sangophage:

You can argue that they don´t look at the important numbers, but again, you don´t know if that is true. It is a bit narrow-minded if you blame the developers for destroying the game just because it moves into a direction you don´t like. Others might enjoy it even more.

+1 This is absolutely correct. I find it hard to take the haters and the people who cry OP seriously when the developers have put out regular updates to fix balancing issues. Not only that, but a lot of the ships are pretty well balanced when they come out in the first place. Furthermore, the people who scream the loudest like to make it out like the developers are just partying all of the time and don’t care what anyone has to say or whether or not the game succeeds. It’s not too hard to see that this is a terrible type of argument.

 
Flag Post

@ TAO

1. There is only 1 Ship without Burst Damage while its not a chaser, too. Its called Torpaz.

The explain: Torpaz cant slow, Torpaz cant loudout massive DPS in short time. Torpaz cant Charge high DPS.

Venture: Torps can be very high DPS compared with the Damage increasing shield.
Undu: Very high DPS on first gun. But the lightning speed well used burns out every ship in shortest time
Fish: Very very high DPS when you let him shoot you 6 or 7 times in a row + Eye and glibber insane Damage.
Wolf: Claw well used compared with the Lasers level 3 very high DPS
Hirudo: Meet him with 50 % HP. Nothing else to say
Circe: Try to kill him. Ghost field + fully loaded Bolts and Sphere insane DPS if you get to close to it
ANT: Use the Masakari special tactic and throw your mines into Enemies faces. Highest possible DPS in this game when you use your rockets right.
Jabber: No word to use. I think i killed nearly everybody in 2 seconds with it.
Angelfire: Meet him when he skilled suicide bomber. You are dead when you try to kill him.
Shino: Same like Hirudo just that your chance to flee is near zero. But he has to hit, and thats not so easy.
Hawk: get to close to him and he is like Jabber.

2.

Like i said before: You just think about 1 point and then its over in your tactical skills.

To make it easier we jump to Level 7+ Ships:
ANT: Can destroy a turret in 6 seconds after getting spotted. But it looses 50% Energy for that kill.
If you go now for the Battery or a second turret you can be killed in the time you need to charge your teleport.
That means you have to teleport back to Depot to heal. Teleport on Level 1 and 2 is not loading fast enough to go Enemy base again. You will die

Circe: Can destroy a turret 2 seconds slower than ANT. But Circe loose near zero Energy for that. Circe can go on the Battery now or another tower. Min damage to second building = 50%. Now comes an Enemy ship. But you can ignore it for some more seconds. So second structure at 30-40%. In the second run that structure is down and another tower dies before you have to go back again. So Circe is minimum even with ANT.

Hirudo: Can go just with loaded Teleport OPS destroying structures against good enemies. He cant fight turret / structure + Enemy ship at the same time. And he will die when he stay on the structure.

3.
You never read to the end or? Read the quote again to that point.

And a back question: How often were Iron Wolf for free when the army of Newbies joined? Zero to answer this question. Same for Shinobi and Angelfire

4.

Thats why i got a winrate of 88% and a k/d of 12.

 
Flag Post

The devs could implement a class system (anti-unit, support, anti-structure) after there are enough ships and have people join teams based on those ships.

Or allow multiple ship types per game would solve everything. 2 ants? 2 wolves? 2 jabbers? No problem.

 
Flag Post

I know there will be those who will disagree but I think the Shinobi is by FAR the most OP ship in the game. Lets just take a little look…

For a start it has the laser. This laser has the potential of hitting for 540 damage. Ok… so you have to aim pretty well but you also need to aim with Jabber/Ant/Undo/Squid/THawk and none of those can do such massive damage. It also has a HUGE range for a weapon like this. Did I mention this weapon can shoot through walls making it easy to kill off turrets too?

On top of this massive damage it has the potential to warp forwards. This aids it in both chasing people and running away. It can also be used to bypass the shields that would normally slow you down as well as making you invisible! A huge advantage already!

Void bounty. This will restore some energy every time you make a kill. Seems ok but because this ship can hunt+pop any weakened ships with one blow makes it slightly unfair.

Then there is death mark… Sure it doesn’t do that much damage but its still an offensive, homing weapon that also damages over time that has killed me near a depot a couple of times.

The ship itself is very fast with huge turning speeds. Fighting this ship is almost impossible and no ship in the game can effectively counter it. All you can do is try to run away from it. If you chase it you either wont catch it thanks to its speed and warp ability, or it will just spin around and pop you with one shot and still escape while laughing in your face AND getting energy thanks to Void Bounty.

So what weakness DOES it have? Pretty much the only weakness is it’s low energy pool. With depots so close to combat so much of the time and it’s speed and ability to warp (not to mention just go invisible and use the depot OP) it doesn’t really matter.

If you cannot see how OP this ship is you are just being completely naive.

 
Flag Post

@ Rexonon, All that really depend on how good the player is. That’s why the Dev use the stats. If only 5% of the players make the ship OP, then its the players skill not the ship.
It’ll also depend on what ship is fighting the Shinobi. I may not be able to kill a Shinobi, but there have been a number of time I’ve gotten away from one . . . in my SS. I just love when I do that.

Sure the Shinobi can swoop in and get the kill, that’s what its designed for. Does have a Shinobi on the enemy team mean that they are going to win? No. He might get the most kills, but having a good Ant player helps take a base down better.

 
Flag Post

Just a note: Only quote the parts you wish to respond to.

Originally posted by Masakarii:

@ TAO

1. There is only 1 Ship without Burst Damage while its not a chaser, too. Its called Torpaz.

Torpaz has burst damage, albight not a very good form, in its mines.

However, Torpaz is, I have found, a good chaser. In fact, it’s Q ability is one of the best for chasing because it’s very easy to hit people with it from behind.

The explain: Torpaz cant slow, Torpaz cant loudout massive DPS in short time. Torpaz cant Charge high DPS.

The Torpaz can’t slow yes, but try using the OP. I’d agree it isn’t a heavy burst or DPS ship (probably should have mentioned it earlier). In fact, it’s a building destroyer ship. However, you wanted all ships to be PvP, right? Torpaz wouldn’t be one of those ships, especially considering Maelstrom… which is pretty much only useful for buildings or in combo with slows from other ships or the OP.

Venture: Torps can be very high DPS compared with the Damage increasing shield.

Do you often see a Venture burst down another full HP ship with Vorps? No, it doesn’t usually happen… it gets them down to 1/3 or 2/5 health, and then you run away as they try and kill you. Burst is only really burst if it kills the opposing ship. Venture doesn’t qualify under this, because it requires all 3 Vorps hitting, as well as not doing enough to scare away another ship unless it’s in a teamfight. Ultimately, it’s not a PvP ship.

Undu: Very high DPS on first gun. But the lightning speed well used burns out every ship in shortest time

Yes, Undu is DPS and bursty (it’s a bit of both because it’s abilities do lots of consistent damage for sections of time).

Fish: Very very high DPS when you let him shoot you 6 or 7 times in a row + Eye and glibber insane Damage.

Yes, Fish is the best DPS ship in the game.

Wolf: Claw well used compared with the Lasers level 3 very high DPS

Yes, Wolf is DPS.

Hirudo: Meet him with 50 % HP. Nothing else to say

Yes, Hirudo is DPS.

Circe: Try to kill him. Ghost field + fully loaded Bolts and Sphere insane DPS if you get to close to it

Are you attacking a Circe head-on with full bolts loaded? I hate to say this… but you kind of deserve to die then. Only Jabbers should be doing that. With Circe, you run around alot till his bolts run out (his bolts are slower than you) and then attack him. Doing this with Hirudo is super annoying btw. And as long as you don’t get close, he can’t burst you with Sphere (and Jabber doesn’t even care about being bursted).

Even more than that, Circe can’t chase… so it doesn’t even matter if he gets you down with his DPS… you can run. The only burst he has is if Omen hits… and that is because the ship wasn’t smart and tried to melee you usually (Jabber’s excepted).

Ultimately, I have to say this; Circe sucks at dueling. It gets it’s strengths from large amounts of area of control and short periods of swift movement. It’s not a PvP ship.

ANT: Use the Masakari special tactic and throw your mines into Enemies faces. Highest possible DPS in this game when you use your rockets right.

Yep. High DPS… so high it’s almost bursty. But it’s still consistent, so I consider it DPS. But it’s not always very good v Players because of it’s low HP.

Jabber: No word to use. I think i killed nearly everybody in 2 seconds with it.

Yep also. DPS.

Angelfire: Meet him when he skilled suicide bomber. You are dead when you try to kill him.

The difficulty is he has to catch you at half hp or so for this to work. DPS.

Shino: Same like Hirudo just that your chance to flee is near zero. But he has to hit, and thats not so easy.

Shino is bursty, and only really good v. players.

Hawk: get to close to him and he is like Jabber.

To be quiet honest, I think he is weaker than Jabber… it’s his HP. I find most can’t take on my Circe because they don’t try and cycle around avoiding the bullets… rather they just get hit and try to burst me down. It doesn’t work. He’s a DPS ship though.

So now look at my statement. All ships besides Venture, Circe, and Ant (and now Torpaz) are bursty or dps chasers. Wouldn’t you say that is right now?

2.

Like i said before: You just think about 1 point and then its over in your tactical skills.

To make it easier we jump to Level 7+ Ships:
ANT: Can destroy a turret in 6 seconds after getting spotted. But it looses 50% Energy for that kill.
If you go now for the Battery or a second turret you can be killed in the time you need to charge your teleport.
That means you have to teleport back to Depot to heal. Teleport on Level 1 and 2 is not loading fast enough to go Enemy base again. You will die

Why are you going for a second turret when you have 40 second teleport? That’s not very smart unless you know they aren’t coming to get you. Not to mention, I’ve gone many times after Ants in my base… how many times do I get them even with their ‘long-charge’ teleport. About 10% of the time. It’s casting period isn’t THAT short. You have to kill them in that time, and smart Ants activate their teleport before you even get there.

Circe: Can destroy a turret 2 seconds slower than ANT. But Circe loose near zero Energy for that.

Actually, Circe usually ends up being around 60%. That’s because it usually takes 2 turret shots at least (so it can hit with Omen). If you don’t want to take the turret shots, it takes a bit longer (around 14 seconds) because you have to aim two nearby omens rather than direct hits). You can also try aiming off screen, but usually that’s only good for the initial omen, and it doesn’t always hit the turret anyways.

Circe can go on the Battery now or another tower.

Battery… possibly, but you will only get it down to about 50% hp. Another tower? No. You will likely die if you do that (or you will teleport at about 10% hp). The other team is going to be coming to get you, and you want to have at least 30% hp while escaping. This is because you use up your space folds… but you need the speed to get to the depot so they don’t catch up. If you are at about 20% or so, there is a decent chance they will catch you.

Min damage to second building = 50%. Now comes an Enemy ship. But you can ignore it for some more seconds.

You can only ignore it with Omen Sphere. Your Bindu’s home in on the other ship (if it’s a smart opponent who gets in the way). If you take the time to aim with Omen, you tank another two turret shots. At this time, you are around 25% hp (and the omen might hit the player instead of the turret like you want it to). You have to activate teleport, and wait another 180 long seconds for it to recharge.

So second structure at 30-40%. In the second run that structure is down and another tower dies before you have to go back again. So Circe is minimum even with ANT.

Not at all. Only if the team doesn’t come to get you. For most teams I know I can get down the first turret. But about 2 seconds later, I see them swinging around the corner, and I want to get myself out of there. I’m out of Bindu’s (having used them on the turret) and so I really have no weapon against them. So I space fold away. Ant can usually afford to take out the turret and the building because of it’s DPS. But not Circe.

Hirudo: Can go just with loaded Teleport OPS destroying structures against good enemies. He cant fight turret / structure + Enemy ship at the same time. And he will die when he stay on the structure.

Actually, it depends on the enemy. Squid and Turret, yeah, I’d agree. But you may be able to take it down versus the ships without a slow and high DPS or high HP. Deport helps you to get yourself out of there in the end.

3.
You never read to the end or? Read the quote again to that point.

I did read it. I’ve never been in such a game, truly.

And a back question: How often were Iron Wolf for free when the army of Newbies joined? Zero to answer this question. Same for Shinobi and Angelfire

But there was alot of people who bought it. You did buy it, right? And shinobi was free one of those weeks, I am pretty sure.

4.

Thats why i got a winrate of 88% and a k/d of 12.

Of course you do. But K/D doesn’t always lead to winning. Me and Chaosdivine got stuck on a team of 2 not-so-goods and 1 leaver. We still won, despite not getting the best K/D. The other team was pretty decent. Why did we win? Because we didn’t focus on K/D. He focused on buildings, while I focused on holding up the defenses. In the end, we won, despite having a not-so-good team. 3 poor players should take 12 good players to compensate? No, not all of the time. It just means modifying your goals to be from K/D to just winning at all costs.

 
Flag Post

@TAO.

Like i said, Venture is nerfed to hard. Its useless now. To explain more for you that oyu can understand it:
Venture in even Teams = more bad than all other Ships. I hope thats easy enough for you to understand.

Shino is NOT Bursty. To explain for you again:
Shino = high DPS with 1 shot. You are 30% HP? Well you are dead when you hit
You are 100% HP? You laugh at Shino, make winke winke and say goodbye meeting the next Depot, Teammate, own Turret or whatever.
Shino CANT kill you. You dont agree? Maybe you use the surrender button to often and dont play over 7 minutes.
And Shino is very good against Defense Towers. The only ship that can fly in, get a shot out and flee. That shot deals 25-40% Damage to the Turret. Without taking damage on yourself

ANT: It really looks like you never played against an ANT that is NOT going for Enemy base until it reached Level 3. Meet one first, then talk again about burst Damage yes or not.
As exmaple to explain it easy for you: Skill your Circe in Teleport and Ghost field as first. Tell me what happens then.

Circe: Watch the explain about ANT

Torpaz: You must be insane good with Torpaz or insane bad against it. Torpaz will NEVER kill somebody alone. Even when the Enemy got just 50%. To explain more for you: Im talking in this point about Players who are not Level 1.
And btw. Torpaz is NOT good in destroying buildings. To explain you a bit more: When you need 1 Minute to destroy a building its inefficency.

I will end this conversation with you now. When i watch your stats ( you defend statistics here ) i have to say that you are a very very bad Player messed on your Commanderlevel and amount of played games.

 
Flag Post

@Masakarii

I guess you’ve never played with a good Venture player, but then its a completely different play style then any other ship.

All ships aren’t designed to be good at the same thing the same way. If they were this game would be boring.

@TAO & Masakarii

What do the 2 of you mean by Burst? Cause it sounds like the 2 of you have different meanings of it.
Burst to me means doing all your damage at once (1 sec)
DPS = Damage Per Second = How much damage you do in 1 min then divide by 60 seconds to get DPS
Saying a ship is high DPS for 1 shot is not using the term properly.

If anyone knows the ship firing times and damages, could you give us the real DPS?

 
Flag Post

i don’t always agree with Masa, but he’s the best Venture player i’ve seen.

 
Flag Post

I have no doubt that Masa is a great player, but what we’re talking about is the ships, and he said

Originally posted by Masakarii:

@TAO.

Like i said, Venture is nerfed to hard. Its useless now. To explain more for you that oyu can understand it:
Venture in even Teams = more bad than all other Ships. I hope thats easy enough for you to understand.

Shino is NOT Bursty. To explain for you again:

The Venture needs a player who understands it for it to be effective, but to say that a team that has a Venture is more likely to lose then if they picked Angel is just wrong.
There might be only a handful of players who can use a Venture, but if a Venture keeps other ships from having to go back to a depot then you are more likely to win.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by Masakarii:

@TAO.

Like i said, Venture is nerfed to hard. Its useless now.

Eh… I don’t think it was nerfed much, tbh. At least… it wasn’t nerfed all that much . I do think it needs a small buff though, to compete on the levels of the other ships.

To explain more for you that oyu can understand it:
Venture in even Teams = more bad than all other Ships. I hope thats easy enough for you to understand.

Of course I understand it… the issue here isn’t understanding… it’s that we disagree.

In this case, yeah, I am going to have to disagree. Venture in teams is incredibly powerful. Of course, you have to have a good team, which supports you… and then you support them back. With heals, Debuffs, Vorps, and, of course, nabbing those hard to get kills with your lasers.

Shino is NOT Bursty. To explain for you again:

Lol, we are using different definitions then. I’m using the one from LoL, since it was the game I got introduce to first.

What bursty means is being able to do a large amount of heavy damage for a brief period which then peters off.
What dps means is being able to do a consistent high amount of damage, but it usually isn’t as high as burst damage.

So you have bursty ships, which deal damage in short periods, and you have dps ships, which deal damage over long periods consistently.

Shino = high DPS with 1 shot. You are 30% HP? Well you are dead when you hit
You are 100% HP?

That’s why Shino is considered bursty… it’s zap dead. It does it’s damage in short periods of time… and has to wait to recharge those periods.

You laugh at Shino, make winke winke and say goodbye meeting the next Depot, Teammate, own Turret or whatever.

I’ve met too many good Shinos to think ignoring them is a good idea.

Shino CANT kill you. You dont agree? Maybe you use the surrender button to often and dont play over 7 minutes.

Lol no. Shino is GREAT at killing people.

And Shino is very good against Defense Towers. The only ship that can fly in, get a shot out and flee. That shot deals 25-40% Damage to the Turret. Without taking damage on yourself

Maybe the center towers, but not the edge ones. In that, I’d rather use SS or Circe. But of course, if I wanted to be really evil, I’d use Squid + DPS teammate. That’s because unless they send like 3 guys over, you will likely kill the turret and the players they send to counter you as well (squid is incredibly good at turning battles around).

ANT: It really looks like you never played against an ANT that is NOT going for Enemy base until it reached Level 3. Meet one first, then talk again about burst Damage yes or not.

I’ve met all sorts of ANTs. I’ve met ANTs that go at around 5. I’ve met ANTs that go at around 10. I’ve met ANTs that never go. I’ve played a ton of rounds with ANTs in them… and get killed by them quite a bit (I also kill them quite a bit in exchange).

ANTs have an incredible DPS… that’s why I called it ‘almost bursty’. It has the damage of a burst ship, but the consistency of a DPS ship.

As exmaple to explain it easy for you: Skill your Circe in Teleport and Ghost field as first. Tell me what happens then.

Circe: Watch the explain about ANT

And then the ANT runs away or teleports, and then comes right back to kill you after depot. Circe can’t deal that hefty damage quick enough to kill it usually. So it’s not such a good idea. Not to mention you are making it incredibly easy for them to hit you since you are staying inside of Ghost Field most of the time. Reduced damage… but increased efficiency for them. Most of the time, I can move in a way to make ANTs miss. The damage reduction isn’t worth the tradeoff. Not to mention that then I lose a decent amount of DPS, because I have to invest in Ghost Field.

Torpaz: You must be insane good with Torpaz or insane bad against it. Torpaz will NEVER kill somebody alone. Even when the Enemy got just 50%. To explain more for you: Im talking in this point about Players who are not Level 1.

Of course… that’s what I said. You need a slow for it to be even effective versus players. Either that, or they have to be at 20% hp and running.

And btw. Torpaz is NOT good in destroying buildings. To explain you a bit more: When you need 1 Minute to destroy a building its inefficency.

But of course it doesn’t need to stay around for about 40 seconds of that minute, right?

I will end this conversation with you now. When i watch your stats ( you defend statistics here ) i have to say that you are a very very bad Player messed on your Commanderlevel and amount of played games.

Well duh I’m not a good player. I’m just ‘okay’. But I’m fine with that.

In any case, referring to my stats, that mainly has to do with the fact that I stunk in the beginning… I wasn’t good at all. So you could say my K/D ratio and Win/Loss ratio is depreciated by that. But I’m still not very good. Never will be. And again, I’m fine with that. I just try to be better than average; and I’ve succeeded in that. I tend to be an asset for the team that I’m on, and that’s all I need to be.

In any case, you can try and dismiss me based on my statistics if you want, but I won’t care, really. Neither will most of my friends, because they’ve played with me a lot, and find that I do a decent enough job… not ‘great’ job mind you, but still well enough that they want me as a teammate. I’m satisfied with that. I don’t need a massive K/D ratio for people to want to play with me… and I’m happy with that.