3 Abilities that have to go/be changed

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To repost from Sir Valimont as he expressed it perfectly. These three abilities really need to be changed, especially as a couple of them come on cards players don’t even have regular access too yet we fight decks with them on a regular basis.


a) Killer
This is the worst ability in the game. It breaks the normal logic and normal rules in such a way that makes players enjoy the game less. It is not fun to play against a deck with Killer in it. It is not fun to play with a deck that has Killer in it (it is just EASY). Many players don’t even realize for themselves that when something is easy, in the long term it’s less fun. But that’s always true.

Suggestion: Killer should be changed so that it only hits if the creature would normally hit the opponent. If a basic strike Killer attacks a Flying creature, it makes no sense for Killer to work. This is the only way I can see making this ability more “fair” and therefore less detrimental to game enjoyment.

b) Back Off
This is the second-worst ability in the game. The concept is decent — returning cards to the draw deck — but its implementation is not good at all. Here is why:

The majority of players are at a middle-level of advancement and have middle-level cards. These cards are all very, very similar in strength and what makes gameplay interesting is how they interact with minor advantages. However, in this situation, a single card advantage is VERY FREQUENTLY the cause of a win or loss. In other words if you instantly kill or remove a single card, it causes a victory or loss. Back Off is FAR TOO POWERFUL in this context, breaking the game. Resetting a card’s delay to 4 or 5 each turn is the equivalent of Delay-4 or -5 without the randomness, making it even harder and less fair to deal with.

Suggestion: Back Off should send cards to the hand with a crystal count of 1 or 2. This is the only way to balance the ability so that it doesn’t utterly steamroll a deck. At least it would still be possible to beat, and it adds the strategy of combining Back Off and Delay in a meaningful way in deckbuilding.

c) Terror
This is a very hard ability to offer suggestions for, but it is really completely broken. By far the least good ability for gameplay, Terror eliminates many possible cards from deckbuilding. Just like Killer, this card is incredibly un-fun to play against, or to play with. It is un-fun because there is no strategy to beating it except brute force, which limits the number of deck options rather than increasing it.

Suggestion: Terror should stall creatures for one turn, or maybe every other turn. Stalling them every single turn breaks the game in a way that reduces quality.

I think these features should be changed to improve game quality. In both cases I believe that MOST players agree with these sentiments. I hope the developers take a look at these issues.

 
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Killer is far, FAR too powerful. It’s absurdly powerful. I’m okay with back-off, and okay with terror, because a well-balanced deck should have a few bonus-granting units to push your people to more than 2 attack. But killer is absolutely game-breaking. And the people out there with one or two butchers in their deck certainly know it.

Killer either needs to be nerfed, or the “Insubordination” penalty needs to be FAR higher. I’d say insubordination should deal at least 4 points per round on a standard game, or more appropriately 20% of the Ungar’s total life per round as damage.

 
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Agreed (: ^^

 
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Also, the “back off” ability sends equipment to the graveyard. I think it should send equipment back to the reserve.

 
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Completely agree with killer:
1) should kill only after hit (to get that fiery auras and retaliate into use against them)
2) they have hit own ungar harder and/or have many crystals 6 like swamp killer)

Terror should be one turn and stops all creatures, ie. terror 1 (1 turn), terror 2 (two turns), terror 3 (three turns).
And terror creatures should be very low attack (0 or max 1).

Back of isnt so big problem as long creatures with it have many crystals.

 
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Ps. about terror
Terror which stops enemy creatures can give some vigour to slow decks :) (imagine: if u stop enemy creatures u have time to put into play urs strong but slow creatures)…

 
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Originally posted by JMCrooks:

Also, the “back off” ability sends equipment to the graveyard. I think it should send equipment back to the reserve.

+1

 
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Thank you for your feedback. I forwarded this to the game developers.

 
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Originally posted by matewu:

Completely agree with killer:

Terror should be one turn and stops all creatures, ie. terror 1 (1 turn), terror 2 (two turns), terror 3 (three turns).
And terror creatures should be very low attack (0 or max 1).

Back of isnt so big problem as long creatures with it have many crystals.

Mmm, Terror is okay as it is. You have to have anticipate it. That’s what it should be with powerful abilities. The problem with killer is that it’s just too powerful. If it operated “on hit”, that wouldn’t be good either, because that would be too weak. It should be strong and feared, but not breaking.

 
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Maybe for u terror is ok, i think similar to sir valimont – terror ruins gameplay, demon of nobility turn off speed and low attack decks, and tiamat slows down most slows decks.

 
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i can say from lower level play that running into a deck with arkhaal lash (of course it’s professional too) the strategy is basically to pray that they draw it late. if it’s played in the first or second slot it’s pretty much an automatic loss. my suggestion would be to give back off “levels” where back off 1 would return it to your hand with 1 delay, back off 2 with 2 delay, etc.

back off is almost surely not as broken later on, but early on it’s simply uncounterable unless you dish out $ on professional packs.

 
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I feel terror, in most “middle-level” decks, as you put it in the “back off” section, is not too much of a problem.

Back off, I feel, could use a tad of nerfing in one of the following ways:
1. make the creature with the skill all have very low, 0 or 1, atk.
2. make the crystal of the returned cards smaller. Thou I feel if it was 1 or 2 it defeats the purpose. perhaps 50% of the original is a more appropriate amount.
3. Make it a on-hit ability as well.
Any one of those should suffice, and the thing wont be as broken.

Killer thou… that is a much bigger issue, even if it’s “on hit only” it might be too powerful sometimes. As the “big brother” of back off, I sometimes feel that return to deck would be a more than strong enough power (which in 2 or 3 deck battles sometimes is no different than killing) and really need to be looked at.

I personally run a butcher myself, and whenever i am not faced with a battle cry rush, which are rare, as long as butcher dont end up in a horrible position, it does the work of multiple of my other cards put together. My dark deck is one of my strongest single squad battle deck even thou most of the cards in it are inferior to my other decks because of this one card.

 
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A Less Drastic nerf to Killer. Make it reduce enemies hp to 1. It would still allow the killers to kill anything they can hit, but it would prevent the direct attack afterwords. This would allow flyers to Wall the killers(excepting staff on ranged units), if the killers don’t have any Indirect support.

 
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Originally posted by JMCrooks:

Killer either needs to be nerfed, or the “Insubordination” penalty needs to be FAR higher. I’d say insubordination should deal at least 4 points per round on a standard game, or more appropriately 20% of the Ungar’s total life per round as damage.

lol yeah lets not remove killer but instead make the butcher totally useless…

 
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Remove all three.

I can’t believe these actually exist in the game … even play not OP abilities retain players.

 
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Don’t have anything against those three. They can change the tide of game. It’s more exciting this way.

 
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@Maerr: it changed anyone’s interesting in this game , from awesome to suck , except you.

 
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@toroto94
All I can see is few guys who don’t like it. Not everyone. I don’t like battle cry but I don’t whine. Killer is that bad? Lifespan of those cards is short. Butcher can be taken down in one round. Not to mention he can’t do a shit against terror 2. Terror is useless against commander abilities or equipment cards that boost attack. It’s nothing wrong with those abilities. You can deal with them. It this game sucks in your opinion just don’t play it.

 
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i feel everything has its rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock, stuff, counter in this game, so it isnt that big of a deal. but thats what i think =)

 
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Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, of course, but let me try to elaborate why I singled out those abilities in the first place, in a slightly different way.

Many here are saying that these abilities can be dealt with, or beaten, or circumvented, and therefore are not too OP or game-breaking. I think these people largely miss the point.

In this game decks are randomly shuffled are cards are laid in a random order. The very fact that you can have the same cards as your opponent makes it impossible to design a card that is so OP it’s unbeatable. Discussion about these three abilities is not a complaint that they “can’t be beaten.” It’s not a complaint that they make it impossible to build good counter decks.

The point here is that for a strategy card game to be fun, especially one in which there’s no skill in actually playing the game (because it’s automated), deckbuilding has to be a deep and strategic experience. Deckbuilding is harmed by abilities that specifically need a minority-capable counter. What that means is that abilities like Terror or Killer for example reduce the number of possible cards you can really use successfully on a LARGE scale.

Many advanced players, if they are honest, use more or less the same one or two decks constantly. Or at best they use about 5% of their card base in this game.

Given the mechanics of this game, it is perfectly possible to do a bit of redesigning so that it actually makes sense to build lots of different deck types and actually use a large part of your card base. These three abilities make that less possible, and so the overall experience of the game is less rich and less fun. The suggestion to change them is one that is aimed at improving the long-term experience of the game. Players who have strong cards should consider how their experience would be better if they were more involved in deckbuilding … which is really what this game SHOULD be all about. Instead it’s about (in the long-term) finding inactive players and taking land. There is some lost potential there, and the major reason is unbalanced abilities.

 
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The suggestion to remove these 3 abilities are just about the dumbest i ever heard of. Two of them are the abilities of the best cards available in the standard pool and to free players. They simply makes it possible for players with no means to compete in this game at any level.
And neither is “OP” to an experienced player playing this game. Indeed the only OP in this game ever was the stacked battlecy – and that was removed a while ago.
The named skills plays little decisive role in the game at the advanced levels , since they are so easily countered. They play a huge role for a kid trying to play this game and compete with big wallets though.
Whats next ?? There will always be inept players whining over skills that they can blame for their lack of ability to succeed in the game. IMO and based on almost 20k battles with this system – these cards are just fine.

 
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Nobody said the problem is that these abilities are OP.

Nobody said that these abilities need to be removed.

Sorry Algue but your post doesn’t make sense. Read what is being suggested. It is being suggested to edit these skills so that deckbuilding matters in this game, which right now it does not. It is not being complained about that paid players automatically beat free players.

Yes, compared to a paid player, it is hard for a free player to compete with the card pool. The “solution” of making abilities like Killer though, is a non-solution. The correct solution is to make the free cards competitive in the first place by using good game design. That is much of the underlying point of this and other related threads.

 
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I agree with Alg.. killer is a pretty strong ability but it is not op, there are many cards that can counter it.. I think it’s fine as it is.

 
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Sir Val -

1) This game is already a fine example of good game design. I’m sure u’ll show us all with ur future game how to do it so much better. I’m beginning to wonder whether these attack on “bad gameplay” is somehow related to this fact.
2) This game is all about deckbuilding, and these skills do not change this fact whatosever.
3) Yes these skills were described as OP in this discussion which u brought up many times , although u phrase it “bad game-design” or similar.
4) Try playing the top list players before u form an opinion on what is “ruining the gameplay” – since picking on common skills like backoff etc. betrays a beginners viewpoint.
5) The 3 mentioned skills are exactly the skills that permits the free players to compete in this game. To downgrade them is the definitive end of free players competing in this game in tournaments, etc .
6) Be kind enough not to ask me to read this thread after i already contributed to it , or explain the point of this thread to me as if was an imbecile.
7) I’m sure the designers have given the skills a lot of thought and will decide what the “correct solution” is , without needing to be lectured on the matter.

 
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I made a post and let it be a while back … you’ll note that I did not start this thread. :)

Of course there are a lot of wonderful design elements in this game, that should be applauded. Another great quality of Bytex is that they communicate with the player base. My comments are meant as constructive criticism, not criticism full stop.

There is a significant difference between OP and “bad game design.” It’s not just a matter of turning a different phrase. The design problems I and others are describing have to do with the fact that abilities against which decks need specifically to be built reduce the total depth of deckbuilding rather than increasing it. It’s really that simple. Incidentally this is not me “lecturing” anyone so much as industry-recognized tenets of design. You can go to other sources if you like to see what they say on the matter (exactly what I say) — try the online virtual magazine The Escapist as a good example of modern and advanced game design discussions. Or really any other design forum. :)