3 Abilities that have to go/be changed page 3

65 posts

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Yes we all know that people who own these cards and abilities will covet and protect them (precisely because they’re OP)

C’mon. One card that immediately destroys the other card is easily OP.

Why? Because the exchange is always mathematically: Chance to kill other card: 100%, chance that some card will 1 hit kill butcher upon entry: <100%.

It doesn’t matter if “some cards completely negate killer cards” – all cards do not negate killer, thus the <100% chance. Every card presumably has the same random chance to go out first or in the middle or last as well.

Killer’s only the tip of the iceberg: a significant number of professional abilities should also be redone.

If you can’t understand this seriously invest in a second grade math course. If you’re in second grade or lower – don’t worry about it, you’re probably cute enough to get away with nonsense.

 
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I’d also like to see these three powers tuned.

Seems like Back Off is only slightly under valued, since it can save dying cards or bring back cards with good first round abilities.

The Staff of Distortion is a good example of how much Killer seems to be undervalued – look at its abilities compared to its rarity and delay.

Terror is at least as OP as Killer and my least favorite ability. It not only hits regardless of attack types, it hits everything on the board that’s not strong enough. I don’t like how it narrows your strategic options and I don’t like having a bunch of cards do nothing – boring. Rather than up the cost, I’d like to see it nerfed to only affect cards that could be attacked by it, or only affect cards in front of it or near it.

 
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Ah, as with ALL games, the people defending the powers and say “just counter it” are probably the ones USING them, and don’t want to give up their capacity to stomp others into the dirt with ease and therefore have to actually “play.” Sorry, these three abilities need tuning. I actually FOUND this thread because I was about to make a thread on this very subject.

 
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be ready to spend cash then, if you arent willing to adapt, else the next thing you’ll have a tough time against is gonna be the payed cards, as they have very powerfull cards in them possibly a lot beter then these, as cash vs free, even now the free players lose most of the time.
these “power cards” are available to free players, and even help balance Cash vs Free a bit. Lets remove em?!. =/


then again we should probaly nerf/ban cash cards to because we have a harder time against them.. hm.. Actualy i like that idea.

 
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Love how the concept of modifying a card becomes a hasty outright “BAN” when the people defending the cards talk about it. They want to ban the cards, they want to ban the cards!

They figure if they scream it long enough, loud enough people or buy it.

No one wants to ban the cards, they want to fix them to work for the game, not against it. I’m a free player, I’ve fought these cards, sometimes I get lucky…90% I don’t. A single Killer card can lose me the battle when all the other cards in the deck combined couldn’t beat me. That’s just wrong.

Rage? A pain. Direct Strike? A pain. Sneak Attack? A pain. Add a whole load of other things to this list.

But not absurd, not broken. But Killer, Terror, and Backoff? Broken. Just. Broken.

 
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…. Its implied in the topic name, They have to Go (removed)/or be changed, so yes the original poster suggested either a ban or a very big nerf.


So yes there is talk about a ban, but hell if you scream long enough about no everyone is just talking about a tincy wincy change people will buy that too. /sarcasm.


Can we now get back to something constructive without just plain attacking people & without whining about logical word choices implied by the topic name.
A heck never mind i give up, doubt i myself will be staying around much longer here, To bad the game had so much potential…


So Anyways, no hard feelings,
I wish you lots of fun and pray your a cash player:), else.. Play some more get to the top and notice things like wisp can be far far more broken, you’d be dead before a butcher can touch the field.

 
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Originally posted by AngelicDawn:
Originally posted by postexodus:

Excellent list. I to Believe/Think/Feel These abilities are horribly designed.

Fixed it for you, as its not a fact but just based on a random gut feeling of some people out there. But thats my oppinion =)

No, you didn’t fix my post, you simply changed it to what you want to believe. However, there is ample empirical evidence that these abilities are overpowered. Terror is the easiest example, where one card can stop all 7 opposing cards from acting, resulting in a single card shutting down an opponents entire game. To counter it, you need to accept that a sizable portion of your cards are not viable and remove them from your decks. It isn’t fun, which is the primary attribute of a game, nor is it interesting or challenging from a strategy aspect, which is a primary attribute of a CCG, particularly one that doesn’t even allow you to select the cards you want to play.

A solid CCG has balance between cards, requiring thoughtful combination of the available cards that a player has, not simply getting lucky enough to pull out an OP card from one of your packs.

The abilities have good flavor for the game, but they obviously need to be tweaked if you want any decent amount of balance in the game.

 
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Actualy yes i fixed that post, there is no fact, just our oppinions about the game, including mine,


Second if solid card games dont have that, i suggest you go have a word with MTG.


Beyond that there is no need to attack me, i already decided to roll over and play dead,
see the previous posts, change what you will, the game cant get a lot worse for it.
Personaly i suggest you nerf quite a lot of $ cards after this,
else i think it’ll be a hard game for the free players, but who knows…

 
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Originally posted by AngelicDawn:

Actualy yes i fixed that post, there is no fact, just our oppinions about the game, including mine,


Second if solid card games dont have that, i suggest you go have a word with MTG.


Beyond that there is no need to attack me, i already decided to roll over and play dead,
see the previous posts, change what you will, the game cant get a lot worse for it.
Personaly i suggest you nerf quite a lot of $ cards after this,
else i think it’ll be a hard game for the free players, but who knows…

Not exactly the best rebuttal. “No, you didn’t, and here is why.” “Yes, I did.”

CCG are designed on complex statistical data. That data is what you want to look into when identifying the facts that will drive your game. If you think there are no facts, than apparently CCG are simply randomly designed games where success is a crap-shoot. It isn’t. MTG’s longevity is a clear indicator of that fact.

You should also reread my post, as I clearly didn’t attack you. I did, however, counter the flawed positions you expressed. That’s normal in any dialogue. I’m open to counterpoints, but you haven’t really presented any.

The game can get a lot worse. It can also get a lot better. The developers clearly understand this considering the version of the game is only 0.3. Their decisions will determine which way it goes. Following your approach, it will not get better. Following ours, it may, although that depends on the changes they implement. And I agree on the money cards…such a discrepancy will guarantee the failure of the game, but that isn’t what the original post was about, and I find that talking to developers about such things is largely wasted, as they enter the arena with predisposed notions that will readily dismiss feedback from outsiders, even when those outsiders are the very customers they hope to attract.

 
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im going with Le sigh… only thing i was saying is that* which we where discussing is no fact.


***That pointing at these Abbilties beeing to strong or not, as thats just based on oppinion, i doubt the rich $ players find that to be a fact.
Same with MTG whats to strong is oppinion, heck even timewalk has a semi-reprint now because they changed theyr oppinion on whats to strong,
And check theyr records they’ve been wrong damn often on what they believed to be to strong or to weak, really really often.. tho i/they think theyr getting better at honing theyr gut feeling. (and yes they themselves stated that often enough on the website)


besides that i dont have any counter points anymore i’ve already posted em all in the entire topic,
but most where countered with counters exactly like some of yours, “No its not”, “yes its to strong because we say it is” “we just talk past what ever your saying and nitpick on words so it looks like were right” “i have proof i cant show you, but its really out there, yup” >.>


and whats that nonsense about my approach beeing a wrong one? i already decided to support the nerf, but only if $ cards are next on the list else i promise you it isnt likely to be getting a whole lot better, because you’ll be stuck on that next.
sounds mighty simmilar, im just not lowering myself to stating fake facts.


Besides that..
hm.. so the developers wont bother to care? then we are just doing a name calling/ E-peen measuring competition here?
oh is that what it is… that clears up a lot. :)


well then, Carry on…. if thats what it is, i probaly wont even look at the response and make this my last post on this topic as i dont really feel a need for competing in it, so cya lot. =D
And Have fun with the E-peen contest :)

 
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The fact that we do not reply here doesn’t mean that we do not read your posts. ;)
Thank you for your discussion, it is really interesting and helpful. I constantly forward your feedback to the game designers and hope they do like some of your ideas as I do. :-)

 
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Originally posted by AngelicDawn:

im going with Le sigh… only thing i was saying is that* which we where discussing is no fact.


***That pointing at these Abbilties beeing to strong or not, as thats just based on oppinion

Yes, le sigh. That’s the very obvious point that you keep repeating and are blatantly wrong about. AGAIN, professional CCG developers use statistical algorithms to weigh a cards power in the meta game. There is a certain amount of intuition that goes into the weighting, which is constantly being defined, but that doesn’t make it an opinion: it’s empirical based, and just like any honest scientific theory, it will be adjusted as new evidence is discovered or theories disproved.

You clearly won’t believe us, but you have Google at your fingertips should you be so inclined to research how the metagame is designed for CCG (there are numerous articles on both that and game theory, a discipline you can get a doctorate in). If you don’t do the research, don’t raise objections against others who have.

 
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Thanks to all for the input.

Post: I wouldn’t waste your energy on replying. You are facing a classic circular argument: someone is suggesting that his/her opinion that opinions not facts exist on xyz topic, therefore opinions not facts exist.

Angel:

Originally posted by AngelicDawn:

be ready to spend cash then, if you arent willing to adapt..

- Most of the 95,000 players on kongregate that tried out this game just left.

- You’ve made a lot of posts – but your position is unclear. It seems like you favor a nerf but don’t give any standpoint on how to nerf. What would you do?

To all: Lets move back towards creating suggestions as opposed to disputes over positions.

 
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Personally, I hate shuffle more than back off or terror >:(

 
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I guess this topic is still valid.

I do not think that either of these abilities, on their own, is overpowered. Why?!

Killer: Cards with killer are just…one-hitting anything. In other words, except for one skill, there is no way to prevent being killed. That is not as terrible as it seems though. It just usually guarantees that the card with killer will do something.

As far as I can see, creatures that have it naturally, have nothing that would prevent them from being killed somewhat easily. With how the game is made, sometimes the card that comes later have the advantage, exactly because they attack on the very turn they enter play. Unless someone have naturally low-damage deck, killer cards usually will die on second or third turn of being in game. After all, these cards WILL be damaged by the creature, before they have the chance to kill it.
Similarly, skills like double lightning, shuffle, whirlwind of blades (or how was it called?!) and cull all can cause a card advantage (in other words, a single card can take two or more opponent creatures before dying itself). Furthermore, shuffle have an additional effect that can cause massive problems. Unlike killer, shuffle have a fantastic combo with another skill, freezing, possibly up to three creatures other than one with immunity.
Since these cards generally come with a drawback two, that kind of decreases the value of “card advantage” at times.
All of the above apply to back off as well. Not only that, but back off isn’t even permanent. If the creature with back off is put into a place of something else, placed against a greatly-weakened fast problem creature, it may in fact be a drawback. It is also susceptible to vanguard.
In other words, sometimes back off is a serious double-edged sword.

If someone will lose continuously because of killer or back off, their deck is simply much weaker than it should. These cards can create an advantage in more situations than most other, but they have their counter in the very mechanics of the game. You can’t ask for a more widely available counter than that.

Now, terror. This is a troublesome skill, since unlike the two before, it is the one that indeed need to be built against. However, it is a bit later down the road. A balanced deck mid-game and higher should have at least some cards that either are high in attack, or increase attack of others. Its simply because at those points, many opposing creatures have high survivability (support of healing, high health, freezing, regeneration, vampirism and such). If you cannot counter terror, the chances are that your deck can’t deal with these highly-surviving decks either. The only problem then becomes the fact that it wastes a lot of time waiting to be defeated, when you already know you lost.

Please put on a “concede battle” button…or make it more visible if it is there already……

In the end, I believe that the problem with these abilities may lie only in the creatures that they are used on, not in those abilities itself. Obviously, a “killer” skill on a creature that would have high HP, would have “armor” and “immunity from magic” would be game-breaking. But so would be a creature with “immunity” instead of “killer” and high attack in place of high HP. Or a fast creature with Commander 2. Or a statistically strong creature with shuffle and freezing. And many more.