CW overhaul

18 posts

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Greetings,

The word on the street is that Bytex intends largely to re-do clan wars for coming eras. As such, this thread will give information on what changes should be made. Feel free to contribute your ideas.

Changes taken from thread:

1. ENABLE PVP (make it possible to conquer another clan’s city, e.g. by not resetting repair costs)
2. MORE PRIZES (clans should receive prizes for participation and not just the top-3 clans)
3. BETTER PHASES (either make it easier to declare — e.g. more deputies — or change declare phases so they are not so annoying for clan leaders)

 
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There are several problems with Clan Wars … but the biggest one is definitely that it is impossible to conquer another clan’s cities.

There are many reasons the top players are stuck in 3 clans. Most obviously only the top-3 get a prize … but also there is no incentive for having a small clan since the amount of damage dealt in battle is the same with fewer members as with more (this is a new rule).

With only 3 clans that are competitive, Clan Wars strategy is all but meaningless without some ability to threaten other clans by attacking their cities. In general it is ludicrous to conceive of a territory-conquering game in which you can’t assault an opponent’s territory.

My suggestion for fixing this is very simple:

Do not reset repair costs.

This will result in the exact intended outcome: big clans can defend cities longer but not indefinitely. There is a disadvantage to fighting PvP versus neutral cities, but it is a measurable disadvantage … not completely pointless.

With a version of Clan Wars where clans need to be concerned about the integrity of their territory structurally, many of the contemplated design goals of Bytex will actually play a part in the game. As it is, PvP is meaningless and territorial expansion is with limited strategy.

 
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The biggest problem is the Deployment Phase – the fact it is fixed time. At a minimum we need more deputies. It is the reason we have so few active clans, which is much bigger problem with Clan Wars. What is the point of worrying about one clan not being able to get through another if we dont have many active clans.

Sir Vals points are based on his clan attacking the best clan so surprisingly he was upset that he didnt get through. He knows that if you attack weaker clans you can get through. I told him he was using a losing strategy but he went ahead anyway, so now he is upset about it. Go figure.

 
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I have made the same correct analysis of the flaws in clan wars’ game design for the past five months. They have not changed because of recent events.

There is one thing that differentiates clans in this game. Leadership. Strength of defense decks is utterly irrelevant because repairs are so easy.

My clan has dominated clan wars every single round I have played, and this is because of good leadership. King Tyrion was a respected leader, and of course so is Achmed. Now Mono is coming on as well.

Less than one week ago literally half of your clan was ready to disband because your leadership was in such shambles. You gain no credibility by posturing and blustering about how “tops” you are. You are the underdog, with good potential to rise up. Don’t squander your prospects by trying to pretend you are more than you are. You are a contender. Not the champ.

 
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In response to the on-topic part of your post:

Originally posted by Fulhamguy:

The biggest problem is the Deployment Phase – the fact it is fixed time. At a minimum we need more deputies. It is the reason we have so few active clans, which is much bigger problem with Clan Wars. What is the point of worrying about one clan not being able to get through another if we dont have many active clans.

The Deployment Phase being at a fixed time does not equate to having more or fewer “active clans” as you put it. Rather, there are fewer active clans because there is no incentive for people to form clans when there is no prize potential. The obvious culprit is the fact that only the top-3 clans get a prize. Also something that should be changed, and also something I have denounced for 5 months. I will add it to the list.

And, to repeat my point, the “point of worrying about being able to get through another clan” is it makes the game strategic rather than asinine. At the moment it is nothing more than a positioning struggle. It is just utterly ridiculous really: This is a game of territorial conquest in which you can’t take another team’s territory. Would you play Risk without being able to take another player’s territories?

 
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While i agree on the 3 points (broken pvp, more prizes being necessary as much as more deputies) i think that removing the cost reset doesnt help at all.
I mean, it makes conquerable some of the clan cities (JHF and AE cities, e.g.) but not all.
It breaks the only balance we have in CW and force to build elite clans in order to win.
It doesnt help smaller clans or clans lacking p2p players line-up.

Btw forcing to build elite clans is a big issue for a game like this.
Paying players have already huge advantages (even now with prof for imps), giving them more doesnt sound a smart idea.

The solution to the pvp issue has to come from smaller clans point of view, not from elite clans point of view.

As usual, please bear with me for my poor english. ^^

 
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Originally posted by DarthPlasmon:

While i agree on the 3 points (broken pvp, more prizes being necessary as much as more deputies) i think that removing the cost reset doesnt help at all.
I mean, it makes conquerable some of the clan cities (JHF and AE cities, e.g.) but not all.
It breaks the only balance we have in CW and force to build elite clans in order to win.
It doesnt help smaller clans or clans lacking p2p players line-up.

Btw forcing to build elite clans is a big issue for a game like this.
Paying players have already huge advantages (even now with prof for imps), giving them more doesnt sound a smart idea.

The solution to the pvp issue has to come from smaller clans point of view, not from elite clans point of view.

As usual, please bear with me for my poor english. ^^

Thank you for your good points :)

I am not sure I understand what you mean by “breaking the only balance we have in CW.” What balance do you think exists in CW now? No repair costs in my opinion means that The Clanning cities can be taken by AE or JHF, for example, but the way things are now, they definitely can’t. It seems like you think that is not the case?

Also, do you not think that building “elite” clans is happening because only 3 clans get prizes? If there were prizes for all, wouldn’t there be more overall competing clans?

 
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A very simple DESIGN TEST for Bytex:

On repairs, all you have to decide is this: Could a clan take a city from itself? Right now, the answer is no. For example my clan could not take a city from ourselves, because winning against our defense decks is much more difficult than repairing. In fact my clan probably could not take a city from ourselves with only me and my top two clanmates repairing.

In a game that is balanced, two clans of equal strength should have the ability to take each other’s cities. There can certainly be an advantage on defense, but it should not be an impossibility. The best way to measure clans of equal strength is to simulate a clan fighting itself.

This is a standard design mechanism in game companies to gauge the difficulty of PvP, and Bytex should use it.

 
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Originally posted by Sir_Valimont:

My clan has dominated clan wars every single round I have played

You played in december, you didn’t dominate in december.

 
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I know for sure that right now it’s nearly impossible to conquer a top clan city.
I’ll use an example, with no repairs.
AE wouldnt probably be able to conquer a Clanning city within a reasonable period of time, we clearly lack the raw strenght to pull it off. Even heavily rebuying it will take ages (around 7-8 phases, though i suspect more) to win a single city.
On the other hand, an elite clan like yours, without us being able to repair, could take one of our cities in a couple of phases (maybe 3 or 4 in the worst case scenario, and rebuying, of course, cause bad luck hits everyone :P).
With an exponential cost without reset, it will take just a little more for your clan (or Zelt, as soon as they rebuild their clan), while for a clan like ours it will become again nearly impossible.

With this change, no reset, only the elite clans gain an opportunity.
Which means that it wont change the CW as we already know them.
It will become even more “elite” oriented, which in my opinion is a bad thing (bad bad bad :P).

“What balance do you think exists in CW now?”
Trying to be clear, the only thing balancing CW right now is the repair system, which alas is also breaking the pvp content.

About the necessity of elite clans. I dont know why they are built. Though i think it involves something more of securing the first place.
Being the strongest is appealing as it is, without the bonus of tons of ounces. At least for some people. ^^ The ounces are icing on the cake. :P

While on more prizes, yup, i think they’ll help the CW.
Many clans cant compete for the first 3 placement, so they simply dont compete at all.
CW needs more prizes, even something for simply trying to compete.
And we need more deputies, cause this is a game, not a job.

In the end:
More prizes? Yes!
More deputies? Yes!
Some changes with pvp? Yes!
No reset on repairs? Nope, not really. :P

 
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Originally posted by MichaelH_:
Originally posted by Sir_Valimont:

My clan has dominated clan wars every single round I have played

You played in december, you didn’t dominate in december.

My clan had a lock on first place. It was disrupted by a rule change in damage values that was unannounced and disabled us from cornering Zeltennia — which otherwise had no chance (not a small chance but NO chance) to win.

Three rounds in a row of unstoppable first place is domination. Enough said.

 
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Originally posted by DarthPlasmon:

I know for sure that right now it’s nearly impossible to conquer a top clan city.
I’ll use an example, with no repairs.
AE wouldnt probably be able to conquer a Clanning city within a reasonable period of time, we clearly lack the raw strenght to pull it off. Even heavily rebuying it will take ages (around 7-8 phases, though i suspect more) to win a single city.
On the other hand, an elite clan like yours, without us being able to repair, could take one of our cities in a couple of phases (maybe 3 or 4 in the worst case scenario, and rebuying, of course, cause bad luck hits everyone :P).
With an exponential cost without reset, it will take just a little more for your clan (or Zelt, as soon as they rebuild their clan), while for a clan like ours it will become again nearly impossible.

With this change, no reset, only the elite clans gain an opportunity.
Which means that it wont change the CW as we already know them.
It will become even more “elite” oriented, which in my opinion is a bad thing (bad bad bad :P).

“What balance do you think exists in CW now?”
Trying to be clear, the only thing balancing CW right now is the repair system, which alas is also breaking the pvp content.

About the necessity of elite clans. I dont know why they are built. Though i think it involves something more of securing the first place.
Being the strongest is appealing as it is, without the bonus of tons of ounces. At least for some people. ^^ The ounces are icing on the cake. :P

While on more prizes, yup, i think they’ll help the CW.
Many clans cant compete for the first 3 placement, so they simply dont compete at all.
CW needs more prizes, even something for simply trying to compete.
And we need more deputies, cause this is a game, not a job.

In the end:
More prizes? Yes!
More deputies? Yes!
Some changes with pvp? Yes!
No reset on repairs? Nope, not really. :P

Your logic about repair costs just doesn’t make any sense.

The entire reason it is difficult to take a city from a clan like mine is that we can repair all the damage done per round so it doesn’t accumulate. This is just because the rate of damage is low enough to handle the repair cost. If the repair costs increase, it makes us vulnerable.

If you propose that it would take 3 or 4 rounds to take your city, then it would logically take 5 or 6 rounds to take ours back if we are a stronger clan. That is MUCH more balanced than the current system and MUCH more strategic. It makes your positioning relevant, because trying to pin another clan at a joint in their city structure becomes a valid strategy (in other words, trying to “split” another clan).

You are not analyzing this situation correctly. You just assume that any advantage in PvP automatically favors the stronger PvPer … but the exact opposite is true.

Here is another way to think about it: Pretend that repairs are 100% removed, so it becomes impossible to repair. This means that when you attack my clan and I have 30 defenders, you do 18 damage per victory, so you need 4500 / 18 / 30 = 8.3 victories on average per player to take my city. You can easily do that if you spend some ounces. We also would need 8.3 victories on average against you to take your city. We would have to spend ounces also. It would be more expensive for your clan, maybe, but the fact is it would be MUCH more balanced because the threat of losing a city would be a real one.

It is true that in general the cards in this game are not balanced in the first place … and that is a separate problem. But still, that does not have very much to do with what we are talking about.

If you are in a fight and you have a medium sword, but I have a big sword, then I will deal more damage. If we are both attacking a monster, I will kill the monster faster. But, if the monster HEALS every round, then you have a MUCH bigger disadvantage than me, because the healing is less important for my larger attack than it is for you.

Repairs is the same thing as healing. It is basic math and logic! I hope these analogies help make the point clear.

 
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Let me give an example with numbers, just to make it as clear as possible.

Player A does 8 damage per round and Player B does 6 damage per round.

The monster has 24 life.

With no healing, Player A takes 3 rounds to kill it (8 + 8 + 8).

Player B takes 4 rounds to kill it (6 + 6 + 6 + 6). That is only 1 more round than Player A.

Now let’s say the monster has healing of 4 per round (this is like repairs).

Player A now hits for only 8 – 4 = 4 per round, and takes 6 rounds to kill it (4 * 6).

Player B now hits for only 6 – 4 = 2 per round, and takes 12 rounds to kill it (2 * 12). That is SIX more rounds than Player A and is a big disadvantage.

You see, healing hurts player B much more because RELATIVELY it reduces his attack more. So even if Player A and B have attack power that is close together, the healing makes the problem much worse.

This is exactly the same problem with Clan Wars between a clan like The Clanning (Player A) and AE (Player B). And this is why repairs are BAD. They should have their price increase forever so they can only be used for a limited time.

Repairs favor the top clans, not the weaker clans.

I hope this makes the point easier to understand.

 
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If the repairs were something like that, you’ll be completely right Val.
And i’ve said before that repairs are breaking the pvp.

Though, right now, it doesnt work exactly like that. Since the repairs are affordable by anyone with enough lands, your math is simply wrong.
Your example should be: Player A (Clanning) is capable of 8 pt of damage. Player B (AE) is capable of 4 pt of damage. The monster though heals for 10. ^^

With an incredible amount of ounces Player A could be capable of more damage (maybe even more than the ability to heal of the monster), though that could easily mean losing ounces even when winning the era. And no one would accept to lose ounces to win an era.
Otherwise this era you could have taken Zelt city.

If the repair cost doesnt reset, then your example would be perfect. And that’s what i’m trying to say.
PvP clearly needs a fix, still the fix should take in consideration the weaker clans point of view.
Zasca’s clan is now able to hold a city for more phases than before because of the repairs. Sooner or later they’ll be able to defend their city as the top clans. They simply need more lands for more players.
But if you take away the repairs they wont stand a chance against stronger clans.

They need (bytex), we need, to find a fix that doesnt break that balance.

 
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Originally posted by DarthPlasmon:

If the repairs were something like that, you’ll be completely right Val.
And i’ve said before that repairs are breaking the pvp.

Though, right now, it doesnt work exactly like that. Since the repairs are affordable by anyone with enough lands, your math is simply wrong.
Your example should be: Player A (Clanning) is capable of 8 pt of damage. Player B (AE) is capable of 4 pt of damage. The monster though heals for 10. ^^

With an incredible amount of ounces Player A could be capable of more damage (maybe even more than the ability to heal of the monster), though that could easily mean losing ounces even when winning the era. And no one would accept to lose ounces to win an era.
Otherwise this era you could have taken Zelt city.

If the repair cost doesnt reset, then your example would be perfect. And that’s what i’m trying to say.
PvP clearly needs a fix, still the fix should take in consideration the weaker clans point of view.
Zasca’s clan is now able to hold a city for more phases than before because of the repairs. Sooner or later they’ll be able to defend their city as the top clans. They simply need more lands for more players.
But if you take away the repairs they wont stand a chance against stronger clans.

They need (bytex), we need, to find a fix that doesnt break that balance.

Zasca’s clan already doesn’t stand any chance against big clans … we kill them in 1 or 2 turns every time …

The problem is not whether his clan can resist top clans … it can’t now and it won’t be able to later. There is no “balance” based on whether he can survive 1 round or 2. It makes no difference. The problem is whether top clans can resist each other. They should NOT be able to forever. If it suddenly becomes possible for Zasca’s clan to FIGHT BACK against a big clan, that is a much more significant improvement for him anyway … my proposed method also helps that way.

 
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I agree with the original post.

The rewards ought to be expanded to include more participants. I would be inclined to reward a set amount of ounces based on the final point total, so that everyone will be motivated to take and hold something. Or, at least reward the lower placers with imps. I’m in the top placing clan, by the way. This isn’t a self serving statement. I want others to have fun, too.

Repairs need to increase even more exponentially. That could be done by not resetting repair costs as Val suggests, or just increase the exponent from what it is now. For instance, double the cost each point. Something so that even the richest clan cannot repair forever. (Actually, best to do both – increase the exponent and don’t reset during a siege).

Something else not mentioned here: Three phases is too many. I’d sure like to see a return to two phases and I’d like to see NPC cities being slower to take – NPC city battles usually end in under 20 minutes. They could repair or something so that more players get a chance to attack.

If it were up to me, we’d have one attack phase that stretched all day and the boss could also declare at any time during that day. I think missing attacks because you didn’t log in at just the right moment when you were asleep, working, or otherwise being normal, is a bummer. Even worse is missing an entire deploy because only two hours are allotted. That’s a depressing way to lose and even to win. It feels empty and undermines this otherwise very fun aspect of the game.

 
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I agree with strawdog and several others that the phases are annoying and should be redone. I will add it to the first post.

 
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Sorry dont get on this forum much.
First off at the moment as I have mentioned my biggest concern is the declare. Luckily Darth and I are opposite time zones but he has carried 2 phases for us 1 in the middle of my sleep and the other mid day while Im working. [b]If youre going with 3 phases atleast give us another deputy or Officer[/b]

In terms of clans being competitive: Ive said many times I believe smaller clans have a shot at jumping in the competition if they only stay active in cycling their inactives out and keeping up on current roster. I know communication between members is difficult if any other clans would like suggestions in this area feel free to ask. But yes incentives probably also play a role and more prizes would be great.

As for my thoughts on pvp. Obviously we have the 3 main factors. Attack strength, Defense strength and repairability/total island size.
Attack/Defense self explanatory all depends on player base and ofcourse solid active players grow as you go.
Repairability is where we seem to be having issues. Being able to hold a city indefinately or lose it in one phase. Obviously this is directly tied to income. Higher avg daily income per active user = ability to hold off attacks.
No repairs could possibly create a vulnerability with top clans but also throws the pvp back on attack and defense strength alone.
Either way leaves a big gap between smaller newer clans and well established clans. Vals idea in my opinion would bring more strategy back into the map planning but maybe take away a secondary fall back of weaker clans with imps (maybe the balance Darth speaks of?)
I havent come up with any type of a solution to the issue yet that after some thought wouldnt make things worse. Sorry no help. (Edit: quick idea not thought out, what about a spending cap per player on repairs, per phase or total.)
As far as Vals analogy up there though the ‘monster’ would be a big variable and in this case some clans/monster healing exceeds attack ability, as Darth showed, creating this mess.