Reasons to Buff MC

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MC vs RD (I tried to format this, but the bb code was removing my paragraphing, sorry guys :P)

*Red is the melee colour, why is it better defensively than MC?

*MC is protected well from m80, but RD is better when its armourless anyway. The only cards which can take advantage of an armlourless RD are other red cards with flight and magic, like feline or another RD, but as for magic it won’t kill an RD unless its already weakened, even with arch+robes, its not gamebreaking to have m80 break your armour. It does hurt though ofc :P

*Blue is the most versatile. However it is limited tank wise. If the tanks are too easy to kill, you need to tank with archmages and vapors once they’re dead. In red you generally have extra melee cards for reach, which can take the tank position. Considering in blue generally you will only have 2 tanks, and judge can wipe one straight off, the tanks need to be able to tank high melee. Which is becoming less and less doable.

*Stun can ground flying, but flying is the only ability besides high shield (which RD exceeds MC in anyway) which can stop stun. If the stun monster is in the melee position, flight is a complete counter. At range you can still put something in the backrow to stop it, or rely on the 25% chance to dodge with flight, and 25% chance to dodge with armour.

*A tank without fly is stuck until stun doesn’t activate, which at 75% can be very rarely.

*RD can be played with Crown successfully. On an MC its fairly pointless.

*A RD5+Awareness ring will lock all blue combos; except using destroyers or judge. Fly might even dodge destroyers. Even if you destroy the awareness ring, RD is still tough to kill unless you’ve brought out magic as well. Which is very costly for 1 turn, which means RD will most likely be re-armoured. Even the combo which alot of people consider the strongest (MC+BB) can’t do a thing to this.
-Before anyone says awareness ring is not used. It is, I know people who use it, just because you may not choose to use it does not mean its not being used. It is situational, but very useful.

*Flame locks down war reach decks, but theres many ways to stop it unless you choose not to use the cards in your deck. Demonic armour or Grim Reaper will deal with a flame, demonis is also an option. Eagle on a high melee card can make the difference (e.g. something with mithril blade) as well. This is only here for comparisons sake. Flame is more common as well due to the +1 crystal.

*You can get rid of fortified armour with destroyers or Mighty Mace. Only way to bring down an RD is entangle, or stun. Which are very uncommon.

*Most players would pick RD over MC. Hence the majority of top players using RD over MC.
-Furthermore, There are no top decks in dragon live which use blue. The highest is maki at 1266, and hes switching to RD.

*They have always been roughly equivalent. Buffing one above the other is unfair to MC users since they put the same amount of effort into leveling theirs. There are no RD users who have complained about RD, yet look at all the MC players completely dissatisfied.

*RD is clearly the strongest melee monster in the game. He doesn’t need an advantage over MC. MC can’t even stand up to glowrilla at lvl5, RD can dodge it. Fort won’t last.

Main advantages of MC:
~If he uses a 3 cost armour he is protected against M80. I love this, but its not that great considering if they weaken his armour or do break it, hes not strong without armour. Hes completely open, unlike an RD which can rely on flight. There will only be 1 m80 per deck, at worst smashing bombs as well, which isn’t great. MM or destroy can completely nullify fort.
~Armour lasts longer. With all the high melee around it doesn’t last long. RD can dodge melee almost constantly if you’re unlucky. Even missing him once in the multiple hits it takes to kill him can ruin you. Miss once and the advantage of fort is gone.
~Battle bracers are incredible on him. However this is currently the ONLY counter to RD. Verm is good, but it leaves you open to magic, and most people won’t use it. Also RD+Awareness ring will slaughter him. I’ve actually hit the turn limit trying to get through flight before.

I’m not saying MC is a horrible card, but I am saying RD is better then him when the only good counter is using BBs on him. He was always considered better, even before the hp buff, now MC has lost defensively in numbers as well.
There are definitely more RD users then MC users, but buffing MC does not nerf RD. People who use RD are not paying for the other player’s MCs, with so many disatisfied players why not keep the same pattern that was before and give MC -10hp +10shield.

If people think 10 more shield makes the fort too strong, look at flight and the extra hp; more turns to miss against flight.
Buffing MC doesn’t suddenly mean blue decks will slaughter every other deck, the fact that blue decks can’t even get in the top 10 should show this.

My main issue here is that buffing MC doesn’t actually hurt RD users, it makes it more tricky for them. Nerfing MC hurts all blue decks that use him. Right now we’re expected to spend 450k coins and grind 175kxp from lvl3 to 5 to gain 10hp and 1CC. Even the strongest combo of MC+BBs can be broken with different combos. Once its gone, MC isn’t really a threat to RDs. The extra armour doesn’t make up for the extra 1 or 2 turns per armour RD will usually gain from all the melee exchanged between them, as well as flight’s other various benefits.

I have a petition on the matter; requesting MC to match RD at lvl5 (-10hp +10 shield). I won’t post it publicly incase anyone doesn’t want it displayed for some reason, but its been shown to lama. If you want to be added to the list please post here or message me ingame.

If have somemore counter points, please post them ^^ however, don’t start an “I agree” list. We know there are more RD users then MC users. There is bias from all of us, me included :p Lets try to keep it as clean as we can :P
Lastly, please do not post points that I’ve already mentioned in here; unless theres something new to it. We could be at this all year :P

 
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first of all, what are MC and RD?

 
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Molten Core and Red Dragon Marfimus :P

 
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I support this statement, a well researched one at that. I currently own a Molten Core level 5, he gets decimated by other epics, even if they’re lvl 3. One thing I’d like to point out, MC (and Spirite, another balance card) is the only epic that is built to come onto the field with an equip. That being said, he costs 7 crystals to become effective (6 if you count many UNCOMMON equips and 1 epic equip, robes) while rd, bd, glow, musc, pincers, pala, and mush all cost 4 or below and are effective for just 4 crystals because their “perks” come without equips.

MC lvl 5 needs 1 of three things: 30 shield, 40 fortify, or 60 melee.

PS don’t even get me started on calamity (notice a trend here with epic balance cards?)

 
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Thanks for your input WhatsAComputer. Could more people post comparisons of their level 5s if they have them? RD or MC.

 
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There is no need to Buff 1 of the Best Epics in the Game.

Comparing it to RD (likely the Strongest Epic in the game is a poor comparison) is silly. Tons of other epics exist, yet only compare it to the best one??? Compare it to almost any other epic and see if it needs an upgrade. There are many, many Epics that are far worse than MC

 
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Jason’s point is valid. Most of the reasons given for buffing MC could be applied to almost every other epic in the game.

After reading the original post many times, and if everything is correct, then the only conclusion I can come to is that RD must be OP.

I am, by the way, not bias either way. I don’t run a Red or a Blue deck.

 
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RD is nice, but OP? Im not so sure about that. With level 5 as well as the HP hike, one of the new metas is high damage (tankability is a cute concept but for many reasons, is not a true meta). RDs damage is on the low side, as is MCs.

As for RD being some super unstoppable force ~ far from it. A turn 1 pala L5 basically floor stomps RD, leaving only 10hp. Between that & judge, if the player was trying for a tank+support deck, youve just wiped their deck. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying that pala is OP either as there are other cards that can do similar in place of it.

 
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Also agree that there is many weaker epics … MC is OK! Maybe RD is too powerfull , I can agree with it … but not the other side.

 
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It’s nice to see that everyone is running around with level 5 epics. And also that the discussion is what level 5 epics can beat other level 5 epics. But this is not the norm, and the majority of the CM community is far from reaching this. Both lv5 RD and current Lv5 MC are monsters to most other cards.

For whatever reason, in tester, up til the end… MC had 30 shield. Why at Expansion 3 launch did it suddenly change to 20, yet RD stayed the same is beyond me. What would be nice is if the community can come to some kind of an agreement on what change is needed.

Here is my proposed change and reason why. I think we should remove 10 shield from RD, and add 10 melee at lv5. No change to MC.

First, im not talking about any common or uncommon cards since despite them having 20-30 shield at lv5, they have much less hp and are already balance.

Rare cards with shield are Frock, Turtle, Snail, and Swoord. All but Swoord get 30 shield at lv5. This seems balanced. Frock and turtle are similar except for the swap of melee vs hp, snail has no melee but fortify and thorns, and swoord gets only 20 shield because he has the highest hp (90) of all the rare/shield allys and has critical. he also costs 5 vs the others which are 4 cost. 30 shield is done well here. No rare card with shield has over 40 melee and have 70 or 80 hp. all cost 4 with the exception of swoord which is fair due to his 90 hp. Epics discussed next average 4 cost at lv5 and have 50+ melee with average hp of 80. So all seems balanced in the rare card area.

So now epics. There are only 3 epics with shield. RD, MC and Pincers. Pincers has 30 shield and should be the only epic to have it. RD should only have 20 shield to balance this. RD has flying, and MC has fortify so Pincers logical advantage would be 30 shield. Note that they all have 80 hp except MC which has 90. All cards cost 4 at lv5. This clearly justifies why RD should have only 20 shield. 30 shield is too much and a clear advantage.

To give RD the 10 melee, I only need to point to Blue Dragon, the best comparison and flyer (both cost 4). Blue dragon has 60 melee and 120 hp. RD should have the same melee. The 120 hp is balanced with RD’s 80 hp since RD would have 20 shield.

I think that giving RD 70 melee is too much. The only other epic card with 70 melee is Musculard but he does not have flying or shield. He does cost 3 though whereas all the epic cards discussed so far have an Lv5 cost of 4. I think we can go round and round but I have really looked into this hard keeping the entire game in mind as well as both sides of the issue. Full disclosure I have an MC and RD but am currently playing RD since I have not been given good blue equips.

Anyone else have a fair suggestion we can all get behind?

 
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Actually another fix to make MC and RD more equal is to give MC the cost drop at level 4, and save the 10 hp for level 5. Just like RD has.

 
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I’m pretty sure everyone can agree that RD is stronger then MC. Which is fine in some aspects, but not defensively. RD has many uses as well, MC is pretty much for mono blue deck since he relies on armour completely. If you have multiple colours in your deck you can find that your equips aren’t up, and you can’t play MC. Whereas RD is obviously not in such a bad situation.

Feline is strong, and its the only card which can do that to RD. It can also do the same to MC. MC’s advantage is surviving M80, but thats just 1 use card. As for judge, thats a bit of an exception to everything. Nothing is safe from it except revive. Which is pretty poor on anything but maybe a god mush, glowrilla or RD5.

I think one problem is RD users think he should be naturally STRONGER then MC. He shouldn’t. He wasn’t in the past, and he shouldn’t be stronger defensively as well. In that aspect they should at least be roughly even. If RD was brought down to 20 shield and 60 melee that would fit his position much more. But I think MC needs something besides 10hp. 10hp is nothing. Maybe 10 fort, or even on its own. Before you start crying about how OP fort is. 10 fort won’t change much if he still has 20 shield. When the average epic damage for tanks is 50-60, and has been for awhile, 30 fort gives 1 extra turn for the armour, and survives m80. It already survives m80, so no change there. It might survive an extra turn, but I doubt it. 30 fort brings 50 armours up to 80, which takes 3 turns to beat with 50 melee, if its 90 fort thats still 3 turns. 70 melee will do 50 damage, which is 2 turns against 80 or 90 armour. Its main advantage is when using shielded armours, but the counters are still there. No magic defence, MM and destroyers break them easily anyway as well. Not to mention cards like musc and other high meleers. RD will still be the top choice for any deck but an all blue deck, but he shouldn’t have 30 shield. Hes already ridiculously powerful at 20 shield, and with 10 more melee he’d be even stronger.

So if RD users can’t accept 10 shield, how about bringing RD more inline with his colour, 20 shield, 60 melee, and MC gets +10 fort, -10hp? Cause right now the balance between these 2 isn’t right. Course it needs to be in balance with everything else, but the 2 most people are using should be fixed first, otherwise customers disappear. Like quite a few of the top 10 alliance members.

 
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I’m ok with that. Fortified Sheild and Staglatite both have 40 fortify. and they are commons. The two rare cards with fortify are crocobear and snail which are both fortify 30. So it makes sense to have an epic have 40 fortify. Spirite should probably get 40 fortify at Lv5 too but that’s a talk for another day haha.

So far the consensus is

RD @Lv5 -10 shield, +10 melee
MC @Lv5 -10 hp, +10 fortify.

I’m ok with that. Any other points?

 
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MC is fine as it is. Still no reason to only compare it to RD. Why not compare MC to Kuk? Kuk is another epic card from the same booster that many people have. The answer to 1 possibly OP card isn’t to make changes to an already very good card so that now possibly 2 cards are far and away better than the rest.

The more logical is simply course for now to slightly downgrade RD and to then readjust all the epics at the same time to better balance them. Hard to imagine almost anyone quitting because their RD goes from “Clearly the Best” to “Among the Best”

In a worst case scenario if RD is left alone then it is still better to leave MC as is since it is better to have 1 Epic Too Good than 2 Epics Too Good. The way to attempt to fix a problem isn’t to double the issue but instead lower the strength

 
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1. RD is far from OP, in a high HP meta game, 50 melee is a joke. In most of my matches, RD has no other role than stalling.

2. +10 fortify on MC is retardedly strong, and should never be implemented.

 
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Originally posted by konival:

1. RD is far from OP, in a high HP meta game, 50 melee is a joke. In most of my matches, RD has no other role than stalling.

2. +10 fortify on MC is retardedly strong, and should never be implemented.

Let me get this straight. 50 melee is a joke, but 10 fortify is retardedly strong? wat?

 
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Konival, im fairly certain most players would agree that RD is quite easily the strongest tank atm. As for 50 melee, its the hightest melee blue sees, even with equips. Red is the melee colour, but 50 melee is plenty strong. Also we just suggested RD gets 60 melee and 20 shield instead. Hes shouldn’t be that strong defensively. The only real weakness he has is feline+mith+m80.

As for 10 fort being OP, you’re obviously not using it. Fort is VERY nice, and all flying users see it as OP. However all grounded melee users see flight as worse. Plus from what I said earlier it won’t be that much of a difference. I’d much prefer +10 shield honestly. As I said before, the most common used armours are 3 cost, 50 armour. On 30 fort that makes 80 armour. On 40 fort its 90. In the case of MC, 20 shield means that it’ll take 50 melee 3 attacks to break regardless of if fort is 30 or 40. For 70 melee it takes 2 turns to break the armour regardless of if its 30 or 40 fort. The only difference is 60 melee. Which requires 1 attack more, which is easily negated with an eagle or something else doing 70 instead of 60 (like a musc).

Fort has its own weaknesses as well. You can’t play the monster without equipment, its too easy to kill something with no natural defences, even 20 shield is pretty useless if theres no equips. This also means MC is only really usable in an all blue deck, or decks where the other colours don’t require any equipment. Since if MC or snail has no access to the equipment since its in another colour, or buried, they’re weak.

 
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Originally posted by bmuell01:

I’m ok with that. Fortified Sheild and Staglatite both have 40 fortify. and they are commons. The two rare cards with fortify are crocobear and snail which are both fortify 30. So it makes sense to have an epic have 40 fortify. Spirite should probably get 40 fortify at Lv5 too but that’s a talk for another day haha.

So far the consensus is

RD @Lv5 -10 shield, +10 melee
MC @Lv5 -10 hp, +10 fortify.

I’m ok with that. Any other points?

Well if you make RD more offensive and less defensive, it will die to feline 1 hit kill. Epic MC and BD and Pincers and glowrilla and GOD mushroom and musc and GD and rare froc and sharknight and baitkeeper and petty theif and swoord cannot die to feline 100 damage but RD can die?

Just buff MC 10 shield 10 fort and -10 HP, there are other epic that need a buff like KUK. RD is more defensive than offensive even before update due to shield and flying. Before update RD cannot match the offensive power of feline and musc and other offensive card. Just because RD have 50 melee RD is more offensive? then MC have 50 melee also so he is as offensive as RD so should + 10 melee and – 10 HP.

 
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Originally posted by JuzzieJT:
Originally posted by konival:

1. RD is far from OP, in a high HP meta game, 50 melee is a joke. In most of my matches, RD has no other role than stalling.

2. +10 fortify on MC is retardedly strong, and should never be implemented.

Let me get this straight. 50 melee is a joke, but 10 fortify is retardedly strong? wat?

I don´t normally quote newbies, since most of them, included you, dont have the knowledge or experience to talk about balancing at all.

Originally posted by joshn90:

Konival, im fairly certain most players would agree that RD is quite easily the strongest tank atm. As for 50 melee, its the hightest melee blue sees, even with equips. Red is the melee colour, but 50 melee is plenty strong. Also we just suggested RD gets 60 melee and 20 shield instead. Hes shouldn’t be that strong defensively. The only real weakness he has is feline+mith+m80.

As for 10 fort being OP, you’re obviously not using it. Fort is VERY nice, and all flying users see it as OP. However all grounded melee users see flight as worse. Plus from what I said earlier it won’t be that much of a difference. I’d much prefer +10 shield honestly. As I said before, the most common used armours are 3 cost, 50 armour. On 30 fort that makes 80 armour. On 40 fort its 90. In the case of MC, 20 shield means that it’ll take 50 melee 3 attacks to break regardless of if fort is 30 or 40. For 70 melee it takes 2 turns to break the armour regardless of if its 30 or 40 fort. The only difference is 60 melee. Which requires 1 attack more, which is easily negated with an eagle or something else doing 70 instead of 60 (like a musc).

Fort has its own weaknesses as well. You can’t play the monster without equipment, its too easy to kill something with no natural defences, even 20 shield is pretty useless if theres no equips. This also means MC is only really usable in an all blue deck, or decks where the other colours don’t require any equipment. Since if MC or snail has no access to the equipment since its in another colour, or buried, they’re weak.

How effective a monster is are based on its synergy in a full deck, not a 1v1 situation. Buffing fortify with 10 basicly means that all viable armor (except for grim reaper) will be over 50 armor, and M80 proof.

10 shield over 10 fortify? Try to say the same when you´re getting smashed by 3 monsters with ranged/melee. 10 armor left means that you can deflect ranged and/or take one hit of unlimited melee damage. What can a measly 10 shield do for you in that situation?

 
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to Josh:

“*Red is the melee colour, why is it better defensively than MC?”

RD is a defensive red creature, while MC is an offensive melee monster with some defensive properties, it’s no surprise RD is slightly better at defense.
Please point out to me the other blue creature that does more melee damage than MC if you disagree.

blah blah blah stun is OP

agreed

flame

There is not many ways to stop flame. Grim reaper sounds like a wonderful waste of all that melee damage+not guarantee you fear the flame, demon armour is again relying on the fear working or the pitiful trash to kill him 5 turns later. Demonis same boat+ requiring 1300 in master.

bringing down RD

You forgot the M-80, but otherwise I agree, he’s a tough SoB

Roughly equivalent

MC used to cost around half a crystal more than RD, it makes sense RD gets buffed more than MC. Also lol at RD users not complaining.

top 10 dragon

I think Whatsacomp could do it. OP stun klam+Leveled blue cards.

expected to level

2 CC and 10 hp(compared to pre-update), not bad at all. Try Acolyte TYVM, 2 levels for 10 hp.

If any tank deserves a buff it’s BD.

bmuel

Close to a dozen cards were changed very last minute, including MC/kuk and Pala.

I would agree 30 shield seems very high and 10 hp or 10 melee sounds like a reasonable change.

 
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BAHHH We need a auto Murky tank.

You weaken RD then many Murky swarmers are coming after you!!!!!!!!

 
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Konival, not everyone I have discussed is 1v1 Konival. Infact you mentioning deck synergy proves a point. RD is actually alot better at syncing with any deck. You look at any rainbow deck, any mixed red and other colour deck, even red and blue. RD is in there. It takes alot to make MC work. Firstly you need to get MC and a suitable equip to play. If you know your opponent is strong, you can’t play MC unarmoured. Unless you get a 2 cost armour with a lvl5 MC you can’t play him first turn, ever. RD can usually get away with it. Unless they have a palabird, but that the same for everyone. The reason MC is not usable in decks besides all blue, or a deck where the other colours have no equips is because you need to always have equips available to MC. If he is drawn, but drawn equips are another colour, you can’t even play him. He won’t tank at all.

The only thing I agree with you on this is that almost anything becomes m80 proof. Basically robes and varied are protected from m80. Which there are only 2 20 armour cards which are used at the top anyway. M80 should have a counter, fort is the only counter to m80 in the game, unless you don’t use flying cards, then flight can save you as well.

Also, 10 armour from fort is nice, but if they have the 10 shield they’ll lose 10 less armour a hit anyway. So in the situation you just mentioned, 3 monsters with melee/range attacking, and you have 10 armour thanks to fort, the 10 less per hit thanks to shield means you would have taken 30 less damage to the armour anyway. Now do you really think 10 fort is better then 10 shield? Don’t get me wrong, I’d love 10 more shield instead.

 
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+1 vote to make RD -10 shield and +10 melee, MC should not be changed.

But about :

flame
There is not many ways to stop flame.

There is plenty ways to stop the flame. Backstab, Fear, Strikes, Entagle, Stun, Chance, Paint, Doom ….
and even without it, because of stealth all range going into the others cards and you can quicky get to flame and kill it.

There is not many ways to stop the RD – it’s the fact.

 
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Bash, thank you for actually responding to some points in my original post. Even though its a wall of text.

MC is not an offensive blue creature. The only reason he has the highest melee is because he is the only epic blue tank. There are no melee blue cards to compare to besides murble. He is a defensive balance card, if you compare him to the 2nd highest defence blue card (snail), which completely focused on defense, ignoring all offense besides thorns (which is arguably defensive), MC has more defence. MC had more hp and fort then snail. Snail is rare, but it completely focused on defence, and had no offence, this still pretty clearly shows MC was not designed to be offensive. I do agree that RD is a defensive red card, and the only of its kind, but it should not have more defence then the most defensive colours most defensive card.

As for flame, hes a topic for another time. Not this thread at least, he was just for comparison.

RD users complain about flame and m80. There is no question that RD is stronger then MC right now. They were roughly equivalent, and the cost difference isn’t an issue at this point as its obvious that boosting MC will not even bring him close to 5 cost (considering he had 60 melee, 30 shield, and 40 fort for 4 cost at one point), so cost difference is not a reason for RD getting buffed more.

Saying someone has a chance at reaching the top 10 in dragon is completely different to the top 10 all having RDs. He might stand a chance, but thats saying a lvl5 deck abusing stun might stand a chance. Kind of ridiculous. Theres obviously a gap here if blue needs to rely on having a level advantage for most fights, and abusing stun.

I agree on Acolyte, it got screwed. But its a rare, and I don’t think they could do anything about it since its cost is right on the barrier. Even still, its just a rare, its not even close to the effort it takes to level an epic. I agree that MC is alot better then he was, but from the lvl5 RDs I have seen, and from obvious comparisons, MC doesn’t stand a chance, and honestly, taking down an RD without m80+feline is fair harder then taking down an MC. Ofc I can only judge this from MC vs MC and MC vs RD. But even maki is saying how much stronger RD is after swapping. RD should not be defensively stronger then MC. They should at least be roughly equal since people have spent just as much time on MC as RD. But buffing one forces people to switch if they want to be competitive.

My main issue is that MC can’t defend his place anymore. If RD was brought down to be more inline with the rest, as in it had +10hp, -10 shield. That would also reduce the problem I think, plus keep RD out of palabird’s instant kills. Although I can’t speak for all the people on my petition who are angered by the current situation.

 
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Weshu, backstab won’t stop flame (doesn’t work on stealth), but yes, those other options are doable, but most won’t consider them viable. Personally I think demonic armour and grim reaper are brilliant for surprise attacks. Might seem like a waste of melee, but try sticking grim reaper on a demonis with its cleave. Stun won’t touch flame either. Strike isn’t really used. Basically options are the 2 fear equips I mentioned, entangle with strapping gloves could work as well, paint and chance are doable, but rarely used. Doom, no-one wants to waste judge on a support card. As for stopping RD, your fact is right. Enough on flame :P