Nerf Fear or Give Us Epic Courage Cards

39 posts

Flag Post

Even before this expansion fear was very popular, with many top decks using multiple grim reapers. But now that there is a fear epic and a fear rare monster added to the mix with the last expansion, it will become even more popular. Almost every top deck has at least one fear card it in now. Fear is clearly one of the most popular abilities. Fear is also on the the strongest abilities, potentially make 2 monsters completely useless by bringing a tank to the back and a range monster to the front.

On the other hand the only way to stop fear is courage, which only has three decent cards. Eagle is by far the best way to stop fear, which is why it’s a staple in any top red deck, even though it’s rare. Excalibur works OK, but I’ve only seen it used on musc in top decks. Last is Charger, but this only is decent in blue decks where the tank has fortify. Other then that you have to really weaken your deck to include fear.

Because of fear being so strong and popular, and courage being so sparse, the types of top decks around now are really shrinking. The only way to challenge a top deck that uses a lot of fear is to make a deck around eagle. This means eventually we will only have two types of top decks; Eagle decks and Fear based decks. I have tried making other types of top decks (mono-yellow), but a rare deck with a good amount of fear still beats me often, which would never happen against my Eagle deck.

I’ve thought of three ways to address this problem. One is nerffing fear, two is giving us more epic courage monsters and equips to combat fear, three is making an anti-fear ability and giving us epic monsters and equips with that ability. I’m fine with any of the three options, but something needs to be done to make non-eagle decks compete against fear.

 
Flag Post

I can’t believe that I’m reading this … are you serious ?

Almost 25% of live play and AA decks have eagle … if there is eagle and you are playing fear deck (not just having GR, it’s not make deck being based on fear!!) you almost automaticaly lost … I playing fear deck for almost 6 months and one is sure → with eagle in play your chances dramatically drop down … you can only pray for some luck to win…
and you want add additional good ally with courage ? it will make ‘fear decks’ useless then… I’m 100% sure about it.

And I agree – not eagle decks have tough, that’s why fear make sense … fear decks have advantage to deck’s without eagle but also deck’s with eagle have advantage (huge) to fear decks.
If all decks have good courage ally then ‘fear decks’ won’t have any sense.

Really you should play a deck based on fear for some time to see that having this deck you are more often screw then when you are playing deck without courage. There is much more ‘Eagle decks’ then ‘Fear decks’… so you have tough situation with fear deck much less often then fear decks have tough situation with eagle decks … so more logical will be start topic “Eagle should be nerfed” …. and to be honest I many times want to do that but I know that game need to be balance and it can’t be situation that there is a type of deck which easily compete with all other types… but to nerf already having so many disadvantages fear … it’s radiculus…

…you just really must don’t know how it looks from another side.

 
Flag Post

But I could agree that Grimm Reaper should be nerfed …
…I love this card so much but I couldn’t disagree that it’s OP card …
… and I think this makes a problem → Fear with deathstrike → killing all clams, chimps, sadistudes etc…

 
Flag Post

- And have another proble, one deck with oportunity+fear = op.

If you have courage give aditional atacs or changue sides and put range on mid and mele on right.

Oportunity—→courage—→fear

This is a wombocombo to beat easy enemys

 
Flag Post

What I’m saying is you could build a fear deck that crushed any deck except an eagle deck. 2 Thumpers and 2-3 grim reapers is all you need in a deck to beat any non-eagle deck. If you nerfed eagle then fear decks would be the only top decks out there. Or you could go the other way and nerf fear or improve courage variety, to add back in other non fear and non eagle decks into the mix. The reason eagle seems OP now is because it’s the only playable counter to fear, not because it’s that good of a card.

 
Flag Post

Fear is not OP. What is OP is Grim Reaper. If Grim Reaper is limited to 1x per deck, then people will have much more difficulty using multiple Fear’s in a deck. Thumper F is decent, but with relatively low melee when summoned, often cannot 1 shot the backrow monster and Thumper M would never see play in a high level deck with its 5 CC cost.

There are other counters to Fear besides Courage. For example look at Green, if you are using Kuks they still are decent in melee and Reach cards can be equipped for the backrow monster.

 
Flag Post

I follow both sides of the argument. Grim Reaper should be unique. Why is destroyers unique but GR is not?

You could easily have some new courage cards. They only need 10 courage to prevent fear. Courage of 20+ is what drives the cost up and makes most cards unplayable.

 
Flag Post

Fear right now is an unbalanced ability with a much larger card pool than that of the opposite ability, in this case courage. Thumper f, Grim Reaper, Demon Armor, and Demon Dwarf are all highly used cards, top tier play-ability. Compair this to the card pool you have of courage in the same tier of play-ability; Eagle…. Excalibur and Charger aren’t even close to the radar, neither one of them have the game changing effect necessary to combat fear and make a noticable effect on the board.

I have to agree with acturayl here, if the card pool for courage was a little bit deeper we wouldn’t have an issue with cards like grim reaper. Grim Reaper should probably be unique OP or not, but it irrelevant to fear vs courage right now. Fear and courage are both top tier abilitys and favored by the community, but fear has the cards and courage doesn’t. I look forward to the next set in hopes we’re given a card or two to deepen one of the shallowest card pools in this game.

 
Flag Post

There are some counters/ways to play around to Fear besides just what is being mentioned with Courage.

1)Hybrid Monsters counter Fear since they are functional at either Ranged or Melee.
2)Reach counters Fear since the melees can still attack from the Backrow and Reach is pretty popular.
3)Using a slow play approach. The less committed you are to the field, the less damaging Fear can be.

Fear also is less useful early in a fight than most other abilities. If someone opens with Thumper F + Demon Dwarf for example, either 1 has to get sacced, they go defenseless and hope opponent summons 2x Monsters, or 1 wastes its ability when used.

 
Flag Post

Of course that there is many ways to manage fear … and one completely killing fear (eagle) … and you are discussing to make it even worse … it’s like removing fear from the game. Only change which should be introduce is making GR unique or nerf somehow.

 
Flag Post

why is this card suddenly OP, hasn’t this card been out since the beginning lol….

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by freezenlight:

why is this card suddenly OP, hasn’t this card been out since the beginning lol….

its cost was lowered down to 3. however, i disagree that grim reaper is OP in any way. Although admittingly, I am a reaper user, I have learned to play around grim reaper, without using courage. Against decks that I know contain grim reaper, I always armor my back first, which solves the problem. if fear is not played, i then just armor my tank. if fear is played, i simply give the tank a reach card.

 
Flag Post

im pretty sure grim was always cost of 3

 
Flag Post

Grim is almost as close to as staple as exists in the game for people who have it unlocked. It is likely the 2nd strongest armor in the game, behind only the insanely OP Vengeful Entity. I’d be curious how many of the “Top 50” decks do not actually use Grim, I suspect it is not a high number. Off the top of my Head, I could imagine it not being an auto include for Blue and even then they might want it for their MC.

Fear by itself is awesome, then adding in Deathstrike + Armor makes it incredible. I run 1x Grim, and like many others would add 1 or 2 more in a heartbeat except for the fact that we are worried about it going to 1 cuz it is so strong.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by JasonJ29:

Grim is almost as close to as staple as exists in the game for people who have it unlocked. It is likely the 2nd strongest armor in the game, behind only the insanely OP Vengeful Entity. I’d be curious how many of the “Top 50” decks do not actually use Grim, I suspect it is not a high number. Off the top of my Head, I could imagine it not being an auto include for Blue and even then they might want it for their MC.

Fear by itself is awesome, then adding in Deathstrike + Armor makes it incredible. I run 1x Grim, and like many others would add 1 or 2 more in a heartbeat except for the fact that we are worried about it going to 1 cuz it is so strong.

Jason, the armor actually weakens it, probably the reason for the lower cost. without any armor, cards like rd or kuk with flying can easily multiple deathstrike lots of cards, with some luck and good back row set up that gets rid of armor

 
Flag Post

Wait so this is getting off topic. Is the problem fear or deathstrike?? Focus people.. The topic was fear not deathstrike. the fact that grim reaper has deathstrike means you are using it to take out a wingman, not your tank. take away fear from reaper and its a different card that i think is even more powerful. but getting back on topic to fear…

if a change to fear is sought, perhaps making the cards change place a one time thing. so fear gets played, cards are mixed up, you attack, then cards go back where they were (if alive).

Fear can be the double whammy like judge was in that no one had a problem with losing a monster to judge but more that it then left your wingmen wide open or that it caused you to lose a card. Fear can mix you up and if you can’t get it back, you might lose more than one monster.

Another solution is make another counter to fear. Immunity was made to counter judge and strike cards and I think it has fallen very short. What if immunity just prevented the card bearer to immunity from abilities (not the whole team like courage). so immunity could protect that card from fear, demoralize, disease etc.. if you had immunity on the melee card, and only 1 wingman, fear would not work. if you had 2 wingmen, then fear would swap their positions. What do you think? immunity might be actually played. Or does that make it too OP compared to fear. not sure. thoughts?

 
Flag Post

Not many people arguing that fear shouldnt be nerfed. The main one, weshu, actually presented more points for why should be nerfed than why it shouldnt be ~ ironically. According to what weshu has experienced, 25% of live play decks use eagle and he struggles on them or cant beat them. The other 75% present little if any trouble. To have a single ability give him a 3/4 win-rate is ridiculous. Also, eagle can be countered as well: opportunity, or just strike it/etc. most eagle decks Ive seen only use a single one.

Hybrid “work arounds” to fear shouldnt really by considered in a debate about fear. While theyre used, forcing decks to either be hybrid workarounds or eagle decks to counter fear is not good. Musc is one of the only true/viable hybrids imo. Kuk is nice but putting it in melee position makes it loose too much of its damage potential.

I think one of the primary issues with fear is indeed how shallow the cardpool is for courage. There should be more rares & epics that contain this ability. That would bring more diversity to the game, which is a good thing.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by chaosguard:

…According to what weshu has experienced, 25% of live play decks use eagle and he struggles on them or cant beat them. The other 75% present little if any trouble. To have a single ability give him a 3/4 win-rate is ridiculous. Also, eagle can be countered as well: opportunity, or just strike it/etc. most eagle decks Ive seen only use a single one.

What I pointed was that fear deck have terrible trouble with eagle … and when someone plays smart… wait for proper moment and goes with eagle and good tank, then add third monster or some good armor – I have no counter back. Almost no chance with such deck (opportunity and fear doesn’t go together as fear is usally chaos and red and opportunity yellow and green). I would can fight it with backstab but two backstab equips are epic and hard to get :( eagle is everywhere.
I wasn’t say that the rest 75% is no problem – the rest is just fair fight … depends of play, of draw, of situation I always have chance to win and chance to loss, it’s just close fight to the end – all have chance.

JasonJ29 also pointed that there are another working ways to deal with fear … and not always great but there work.

I’m 100% sure that if there is introduced new good courage equip which can be use in all decks (or just added equip or ally to decks where eagle doesn’t fit) then fear will be completely useless ! It will be just like removing this ability from the game.

 
Flag Post

chaosguard nailed it….the real issue how shallow the courage card pool is. I just want the option of defending against fear without having an eagle deck. While creative, the other ways to deal with fear really weaken decks, especially certain color decks.

And I’m 101% sure giving more courage (or anti-fear) cards will not make fear completely useless. It just won’t be the only strategy people need to beat non-eagle decks. People will still have to decide if it’s worth putting in their decks. Just like having good having good opportunity cards didn’t end reach and having good anti-air cards isn’t ending flying, having good courage or anti-fear cards will not end fear.

BTW I am building a fear deck, just to show how OP it is. And I’ll only include one grim, so that won’t be the reason it will be OP.

 
Flag Post

that’s the point actu – you presented it very well …

Against reach there is opportunity, against flying there is antiair. And you can this ways directly deal with it… what is very helpful becasue of how server calculates the chances there is a lot of times situation when flying dogde your attack a few times in a row… you can easily counter is with antiair (similar when you have problems with reach – just you can add opportunity to your deck) … when you have problem with fear – you can add courage – fair ? fair enough !

And there is no playable option to play any (opprotunity or antiair) in chaos and war decks and there is no ally which can be used alone and be efficient. Even more this decks doesn’t have possibility to even put any playable archer this color …
so why you want to make courage be easily used in every deck? ….
… let’s do the same with opportunity and antiair and it’s ok for me … you can add some courage monster for yellow or blue but add also good archer to chaos and war … fair ? fair enough !

 
Flag Post

All colors can pretty successfully add opportunity and anti-air to the decks with not much drop off in total strength. Both war and chaos have the lowest crystal cost sky bracelet, which is a great epic with both opportunity and anti-air. In fact, the only color that doesn’t have the lowest cost sky bracelet is blue, but reach and flying can be dealt with easily in other ways in blue.

However yellow has no decent way to deal with fear. Excalibur for 4cc, Herald’s Bow for 4cc, and Strange Trinket for 4cc are the only even close to playable equips for yellow to fight fear. One ability should not be able to make an entire color unplayable to decks with that ability, without a decent way to adjust for it.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by actuaryal:

All colors can pretty successfully add opportunity and anti-air to the decks with not much drop off in total strength. Both war and chaos have the lowest crystal cost sky bracelet, which is a great epic with both opportunity and anti-air. In fact, the only color that doesn’t have the lowest cost sky bracelet is blue, but reach and flying can be dealt with easily in other ways in blue.

Buahahah… good one … seriously ? on which monster you want to put this sky bracelet ? on notexisting chaos archer or one poor no-playable war uncommon archer ? … or maybe you want to put it on some musc or rd and shooting for zero :P nice plan :P

If we are talking about no-playble ideas just to find any possibility please add two strange Trinket to yellow and you got what you want… at least you can something for 4cc … adding sky bracelet to chaos or war deck is as smart as putting reach on no-melee ally …

 
Flag Post

sky bracelet can go on eagle…for choas I forgot it would be useless. The point is that abilities can be dealt with in every color in much more effective ways then how yellow can deal with fear.

 
Flag Post

ok, all this is theory … let’s wait when you start playing fear deck after you finish it. I really believe then when you test it in practice you will see how many disadvantages it has. Maybe I just can’t make it properly but after what I’ve tested I think there is enugh ways to deal with it and adding good courage to all colour will make fear decks no-playable… but we will see…

 
Flag Post

Fear is extremely strong as far as PVP is concerned. Every deck has to address it, or else that deck becomes easy pickings. If a deck does not address fear, then it loses 1-2 backrow/dps cards each time fear comes out. This completely cripples the dps of the deck and a good tank is useless without dps/support. There are only two ways to address fear at the moment. The first is courage, for that Eagle is the only truly viable card. The second is a ghetto workaround because the first is so limited, and that is using a deck of hybrid cards.

By typical game/MMO standards, anything that limits creativity and variety to such a degree is usually considered OP, nerfed to be in balance with the rest of the game, and so on.

Please weshu, tell me how many fear cards are viable to play in a deck.

PS: Neither actuaryal nor myself said that courage should be simple to just slap into any deck. Everything requires sacrafices. In order to incorporate courage, youd still be giving up one or more monster/equip slots. We are just asking that we have a choice with what we use aside from just “dur dee dur, slap an eagle on it”.

PSS: Courage only eliminates fear while courage is in play. So even eagle decks can get warffle stomped if you manage to nag one or two of their backrows before they get an eagle on the field (and if they get the eagle onto the field too early or alone… say goodbye eagle).