- ¿Nerf RD ?

101 posts

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- Well i start to play live matchs short time ago and i look this card like a 60% of the games, yes is epick card, is nice but i thin is totaly OP card.

In mi chase i have a green deck with eagle, i hace clam, crocobear, kukul, eagle, reach items adn 2 devius boots. Well, to beat a RD level 5 i must hit on mid vs 50% fail (fly), my crocobear level 5 have 50 damage, the RD have shield 30, then i damage 20 if i can hit him.

Yes i can put eagle and reack on kulk to hit RD, but i must have 4-5 card in game to beat 1 RD, if thsi RD have robe, tower shield, or roa or toons of armour i can say gg.

Ithink modificate 1 thing maybe do thsi card a normal card, like have max shield 20, no 30, have damage 40 and no 50 or do cost 5 in level 5, but now, for 4 cristal one creature with 50/80+fly+30 shield is say you must have this card for be a top player.

 
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usually i don’t care for grammar, but please T.T

 
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just increase the implicit percentage of non-flying attack hit flying monsters. I somehow feel that the actual percentage of miss is higher than 50% lol

 
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Why are you talking about swarms? This is not about swarms, it’s about PvP, and he is right, RD is overpowered, it’s used in PvP even by people with tons of lvled epics. I don’t think you even believe in your own argument RD is just a swarm card.

Equip for flying is never available in red. So the solution is obvious, Red Dragon needs to stop flying. Reduce him to a land dragon, give him some more hitpoints in exchange. Would be more in line with the red cards in general.

I don’t think you should nerf every flying ally by increasing the percentage of hitting a flying monster, just because RD is overpowered.

 
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Originally posted by JuzzieJT:
Originally posted by Geradi:

Why are you talking about swarms? This is not about swarms,

Sigh, I guess I do need to spell it out. Because RD5 is the premier frontrow for all swarms because innate 30 shield and flying and changeable equip as necessary, and nerfing him is going to affect people’s MS and UV winrates. That’s why.

So it’s not a point :) let’s nerf it then! … I don’t use RD for swarms – and I’m doing every two days – one MS and one UV – always finish. Proof enough that we don’t need keep it OP because of swarms. It’s for sure not necessary card ! even if it affect a little bit people winrates – it just force people to find another way to finish this swarms. Keeping it OP because of swarms isn’t reasonable argument.

 
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Thats the point, you don’t need to use RD for swarms, it’s just convenient because the card is so ridicolous overpowered. This becomes a real issue in PvP, RD is everywhere.

Balance in PvP can’t take in consideration how it effects the swarm deck of the players, that can be adapted rather fast by the player.

 
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While RD is one of the best cards in the game, I don’t think it’s OP. You could easily argue BD is stronger, and even Fat Pincers is close. MC is the only other comparable lvl 5 4cc epic, and he isn’t that far off. I’m not going to compare him to the only other lvl5 4cc epic Mush since they have such different abilities. All the other epics cause <4cc expect GD, so we would expect RD to have better stats.

After playing with RD in my live deck for months I’ve taken it out for cheaper red tanks (Glad and Kornan) and my win percentage in live is either the same or higher now.

RD weakness is it’s weak melee. A single flame will shut him down, giving you all the time in the world to take him out. Also with only 80 HP two magic monsters can take him out.

 
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RD is 1 of the most OP monsters in the game, Musc is prob it’s only rival. Also, Glumbie is 4 CC at Lvl 5 too.

When playing in Dragon, it isn’t a coincidence that you see RD and Musc at least 3x-4x more than almost any other epic (with the only possible exceptions might be Sadi -as a Sac, BD, and Kuk if you draw multiple Green Opponents).
Yes people lvl RD and Musc quickly to help in swarms too, but even people with tons of lvled epics tend to focus on the Standard RD + Musc Spam. Flying + 80 Health + 30 Shield is just an insane combination.

Glad and Kronan might be viable when you have almost every card in the game and can protect your Glad with Ying Suit or give your Kronan a Winged Helm or whatever plethora of Epics you have access to. However, RD is so over powering cuz with Shield and Flying it is already a beast by itself. As someone with a Lvl 5 Kronan, I’d trade it without even thinking for a Lvl 5 RD and the decision would not be anywhere close to difficult.

I don’t consider 50 to be weak melee. Weak is maybe like 30 melee. With a simple Eagle on the field (common setup) that decent 50 rises to 70. Magic isnt even a great counter considering that Silence or Reflect can shut it down and 1 of RD’s fav combos is Phoenix Shield which has Wall.


As far as Juzzie’s argument, arguing that an OP card should not be nerfed because it would affect Swarm builds isn’t a valid argument.

 
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- BD has 50% more HP, more atk (isn’t shut down by flame3), doesn’t die easily to magic and can provide crystals.
- MC also has more HP and can turn phoenix shield, VE, BB etc. into obscene protection (even against RD).
- Armored pincers can consistently kill RD with counter while sustaining little damage.
- Gladior/glow have lots more HP and tons more dmg for less cost.

The % of RD users is higher amongst less experienced players. They think it’s OP cuz you guys keep complaining about it. The real pro’s (actuaryal, msr6, salem etc.) know best, and run other tanks.

 
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Originally posted by irabelo:

- BD has 50% more HP, more atk (isn’t shut down by flame3), doesn’t die easily to magic and can provide crystals.
- MC also has more HP and can turn phoenix shield, VE, BB etc. into obscene protection (even against RD).
- Armored pincers can consistently kill RD with counter while sustaining little damage.
- Gladior/glow have lots more HP and tons more dmg for less cost.

The % of RD users is higher amongst less experienced players. They think it’s OP cuz you guys keep complaining about it. The real pro’s (actuaryal, msr6, salem etc.) know best, and run other tanks.

- BD have fly but no 30 shield, Princes have shield, but no fly, Mc is nice def, but no fly. Te combination fly ( 50% mele atacs fail) + shield 30 + heal item = you NEED luck to kill RD and enemi only must do RD+EAGLE+EAGLE ///migthy mace+roa+mystical amulet and gg.

2 atacs of 30 archer, 70 reach atac + 20 break of eagle, 90 fly mele atac of drake and heal 20+30, after you have amazing luck and kill RD, enemy dow a feline raider + armour items and well, you know what happend now, TOONS of damage.

 
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I love how Juzzie’s arguments do not even address RD being OP.

-So it is new players that are mainly using RD? Not sure I would consider anyone in Dragon League to be new where like 75% of your opponents use an RD and of those 25% who don’t use it like 1/2 of them simply would but do not have the card.

-LOL at it being imbalanced that we should use 3. People have a hard time drawing 1 much less 3.

-Lama using a card prevents it from being Nerfed? That is a new one, wonder if Lama is aware of this. Are you saying Lama has never used Judge in his deck cuz that was nerfed.


Irabelo, the majority of Dragon League uses RD, so the players have plenty of experience. As far as the 3 that you mentioned:

Actuaryal-By his own Admission he used RD for months. Now he has Gladior as 1 of his Melees, not exactly a viable alternative for 99.9% of people

Msr6-Plays Green mainly and has a deck built around a different OP card Grim Reaper

Salemdakat-All I know is that he plays purple since I auto surrender any time I am matched up vs him.


Even if you accept that those 3 Players do not run RD that is not even a strong argument about RD not being OP. If anything it could show how OP RD is in that only people with access to every card in the game and every possible combo almost can even consider not using RD in their Deck.

 
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There is already an “Anti-fly” ability to counter flying monsters previously seeming too strong. After introducing this ability, it has no ground to further weaken RD. Besides, RD is less favourable because of explode 80 in VE could kill RD in 1 hit

 
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Why does nobody ever mention feline as OP?
3cc for a surprise 100 melee that cannot miss… equipped with a 2cc mithril blade and you can oneshot almost anything… anti-fly does nothing to prevent that!
Anti-fly should activate when the creature takes advantage of the 100% hit against another flying creature as well.
or just do away with flying always hits flying all together… at least give it only 75% or something
this would be enough of a nerf to RD as well IMO
flying itself is still OP… anti-air didn’t do enough… who in live play doesn’t use any flying? You have to in order to compete.

 
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@Bloder, you don’t need all that to kill RD. You can use MC+verminus/BB, snail+verminus/BB, BD+flame, pincers+flame, feline+mith, feline+courage, kuk/feline/bd/griffin+GR, 2 x AM/DM/genif, and many other combos.
@Jason, come on: “plenty of experience” on dragon, seriously? I fight tons of noobs in dragon live everyday. Playing dragon doesn’t mean you’re (reasonably) experienced. Also, I’m pretty sure Actuaryal played blue (double MC) for longer than he played RD. And I could also mention HaoPingL, Fullmadden, Blackbonds, Etrangetrag, Bashandsmash and several other top players that do not run RD as primary tank. Several of those are heavy token players, with “access to every card in the game” and CHOOSE NOT TO RUN RD.

 
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Originally posted by JuzzieJT:


If you want to nerf the premier MS/UV tank and mess up everyone’s best winrate and coin gain you’d better have a good argument apart from “I can’t deal with it so it’s OP”.

We already agreed that there is no problem doing MS/UV swarms without RD. This is completely no argument at all and I can’t understand why you still mention it ! And you are talking about ridiculous marker of “success” so I suppose you are too lazy or not enough creative to change RD.

I have 375 light, never buy light crystal. Not using RD :
MS win rate I have more then 90% (lost maximum 1 from 10) – so I must run swarm maximum one more time then having RD and win rate 99% … it’s so much ? you are funny…

UV win rate I have about 50% and from the rest 49% is dying during wave 7- again – with RD I will need maybe 1-2 less run and have a little bit more coins (2-3k?) ….

and it’s you argument ? because this difference RD is so important to swarms ?
and I don’t have a lot of important cards (like crown or eagle) which can make this statistics much better.

I understand a lot of reasonable arguments that RD is not OP (like for example actualryan and msr6 mentioned) – I’m not completely strong on fact that RD is OP – just agree that it’s a little bit OP but I can live with it and I understand both sides arguments except this ridiculous one that we shouldn’t nerf it because of swarms.

 
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Irabelo, the simple fact that you pay attention to and remember the names of people who do not play RD is further proof about it being OP. When a card is so strong that you notice when people DO NOT use the card, that is pretty telling.

Additionally, your argument about “top players” who have almost every card not using RD is a little odd to me. If the argument is that only players with access to almost every combo are those who can afford to not play RD, then that is further proof about it being OP. The easiest way to tell though is by looking at what people choose to play in the most competitive league.

By my count there are 32 Different Epic Allies, yet among these 32 RD shows up in at least 1/2-2/3 of Dragon Battles and Musc close to similar levels too. By Contrast, prob 22 of the Epic monsters are almost never seen or are very rarely used. When 1 or 2 or so monsters so strongly standout among its peers, that is a strong sign of it/them being OP.

 
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flying+shield is OP!!!!

 
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Thats the point, anti air is used with range, and range is not effective enough against a 30 shield overpowered RD.

I’m really sick and tired of you “but I need it for Swarms” argument, it just isn’t as important as balancing the card for PvP. There are other ways to do your swarms. There can’t be balance upon that base. It just doesn’t matter how you do your swarms.

I really do understand, you want to defend your overpowered toy, but it has to be changed if this game wants to get some serious balance.

 
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JuzzieJT → this statistics was in fact lowered!

MS sometimes with some luck I can finish 100% all tries … only with bad luck I lose … in fact when I was writing this post I put 95% in first place … then I re-think I assume that better I will lower it a little because sometimes it can be more then 1/20 dyes on wave 7.

UV – I almost always get to 7th wave (maximum average 1 time of each swarm I die earlier – 6)… and half of that I finish, about half , it can be something between 40-60% but for sure about it.

AND I DON’T USE TOWER SHIELD even … so probably with this card (or even a two copy) I would be able to make this statistics better ! ….

and it’s not based on feel … based on feel I would say that I’m able to do 95% both with full focus on it… because a lot of time I don’t pay so much attention and makes mistakes (playing just without too much thinking)…

So we agree that we disagree and you are the one who can’t manage without RD … nice …

 
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Sorry for the wall of text ahead.

@Jason, I don’t mean to be rude, but now you’re just being ridiculous. I know who doesn’t run RD because I play them on live and AA’s on a daily basis. I could probably give you at least a rough layout of the decks of any top player from alliances #1-#6.
Regarding your 2nd and 3rd points: there are 27 (not 32) epic allies, but only about 8-10 are “viable” tanks, IMO. From those, 2 are from the last expansion and one is extermely hard to unlock, so you’re unlikely to find many of those at lvl5 already. Also, glowrilla is very hard to get (from what I’ve heard from those who tried) and kronan is arguable. So that leaves 4-5 tanks. Now, fat pincers is yellow, which wasn’t a viable top deck option until recently, so few people lvlled it, so that’s like 3-4 options. From those, MC and RD have been available for the longest, and are on the cheapest high lvl pack (master). So it’s EXPECTED to see them more often then the others. Now you can argue that MC is weaker than RD and underused atm, but that’s pretty much it, it doesn’t mean RD is better than all others.
The point is that as the expansions were rising, there appeared other tank options that are arguably as strong as or stronger than RD. Hence players that can opt to run them choose to do so. And the others either don’t have those other options or were already levelling RD when they became available.
So, to sum it up: RD is not more popular only because it’s strong. It has just been around for longer and it’s cheaper to get (master booster). If people could choose to run any tank, many of them would NOT run RD, as is the case for token heavy top players.

@Juzzie: i think weshu was talking about doing swarms manually.

@Hao: Just strap some ninjusuit on MC, flying shoes on Pincers, or protector on BD then ;P

@ Geradi: ever heard of magic? Thorns? Other flying monsters? Counter? High shield (RD has only 50 atk)?

 
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Originally posted by irabelo:

@Juzzie: i think weshu was talking about doing swarms manually.

Correct. Never said that no :)

 
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@irabelo
You don’t have to talk to me like I’m stupid. Is that what you are doing to everyone with a different opinion? They are all stupid ehh?

 
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Sorry for that, didn’t mean to be offensive ;)
I respect your opinion, but was just expressing a different point of view that you might have had missed before.

 
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“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

 
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Lots and lots of opinions here but not one solution is posted. What exactly would make everyone happy?

Irabelo gets extra credit for hitting the nail on the head of why RD is so popular. Very nice breakdown and factual.