Nerf Nerf Nerf and don't forget the Violence!

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It has become very common place to call for a nerf in this game, there are many cards that have been targeted in recent memory. The word OP is being thrown around very casually, nearly every card played in Dragon live has been called OP in the last 2 months. OP- Over Powered, a card or series of cards that have no consistent threat of losing. Honestly I don’t see any of these in the game right now. What I consider the top decks in the game, msr6, mcclarenf1buff, Saalemdeekat, Justanewhand, Shadowhacker, funkymonkey, acturayl. 5 of these 7 people have figured out how to use top decks without RD, 4 have figured out how to use top decks without flame, 6 have figured out how to do it without Glow or Kuk, 5 have figured out how to do it without BD, 1 has figured out how to do it without Judgement.

The point being that if any of these players can be competitive with any of these other players without using the same or close to the same 14 cards then why can’t everyone else? All the decks above are radically different from each other, even the 2 mono purple decks, so it’s pretty clear to me that there is diversity in the powerful cards the game offers. When you have a diverse top in a game then nothing is OP. If something were so strong that other strategies couldn’t beat then all those players would be playing it, they have access to the cards, why wouldn’t they?

Judgement and Grim Reaper, currently considered as problem childs right now. I beg to differ. Indiscriminate board control is absolutely necessary in keeping cards in check. They are the great balance, very important in making sure nothing gets out of hand. Is Judgement’s and Grim Reapers widely accepted use an issue? I would consider it the cards that keep issues in check. Wide use of these cards is a good thing, direct interaction with your opponents board is healthy for a game, being able to remove an armored RD or armored Snail gives us options to play what we want.

Since there is a good handful of cards that can play against each other in the top of the top I don’t see why we’re calling for nerfs. We should be considering existing options to beat these cards or calling for buffs to bring other cards to the playing field. While there are multiple top contenders there are without question cards that are severely lacking in power. Like Glumbie for example.

Why did I type all this? I’m trying to convert the restrictive mindset the forum and chat have adopted to a constructive, expanding mindset. Instead of restricting the playable card pool let use try to expand through the cards that will never see play!

 
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Agreed completely, best thread I’ve seen in a long time. I’ve gotten carried away and asked for nerfs in the past myself, but I agree that the optimal solution is usually to find a workaround (like fear vs. Flames, demo vs. RD, glow, etc. and so on). +1

Almost every competitive game has 1 or more slightly off-balance features, until new content arrives and changes that balance. Like MtG with every new expansion set or items and skills in MMOs like Diablo and others. In card monsters we’ve had early dominance of Balance, then War arised, followed by Chaos. Harrowing and Heroic cards and fixes helped make Nature and Fortune viable, making it possible to make a top deck in virtually any color. Each expansion brought features that undermined previously dominant strategies, improving the game’s overall balance.

I can say, imho, that we currently have the most balanced playset since the game was first launched, with a viable response to anything in the game.

 
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Instead of nerfing a card, why dont consider to strengthen those cards that only sporadic players play in the live play?
For example: Dungeon Master, Squidiver, conbra etc.

B.T.W. I recommend CM considering changes in abilities such as “Disease”, “Backstab” , “Heal”

And “Fear” is too strong currently since without courage cards in play, fear will ruin all your 3 cards

 
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Viva la Stache!

Outcrys are really just CM drama. I find it interesting to read an participate in but having played in this game for a long time now, we really must accept by now that we have very little say in what Edgebee does. So in the end, its just releasing some steam and venting about the latest card or opponent that crushed you. It is hard to read something about a card you are passionate about and not jump in to protect it, so I see all sides.

The game is forever changing (Beta LOL!) and adapting with new cards and abilities and revisiting of the old where needed. So people need to enjoy the ride and relax a bit. I can only think of a few specific examples where a card was actually nerfed. This was clearly done to right a wrong, like making 1 usable unique, bagpipes to 4cc, things like that. So Edge does take action when needed and it is in their best effort to keep the game as balanced as possible. The biggest issue the game faces is the small card pool. With each expansion, more cards are added and decks can become more diverse.

In the end, the game will only get better!

 
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1)That is Quite an Exaggeration to say anywhere close to almost every card used in Dragon has been called OP lately. Judgement is still seen as OP? I haven’t seen almost anything about Judgement being OP since it went to 7 CC

2)Are you seriously asking why Salem, Act, Shadow, Msr6, etc are able to build decks that others aren’t? Ummm maybe because the people you listed have spent significantly more $$$ than almost anyone else in the game. By spending large amounts of $$$ you tend to have access to combos and strategies that others do not.

3)If the argument is that certain cards are not OP if you have access to almost every card in the game, even if it is OP for 99% of players then I disagree with that logic.

 
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Exclusive, I really shouldn’t be on your list there are many more deserving players than me!

Jason, I can only speak for myself but I have spend very little in this game. 9 out of my 14 cards are unlocks and the rest were lucky finds. I am actually forced to use purple, as I could not possibly manage to build a decent deck with any other colour :-/

 
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You are right to a certain extent. But at this moment, we can’t tackle FEAR effectively except using eagle

 
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Exclusive, your argument regarding the usage of RD is good. However, I believe there is a rather large loophole. Here you have a list of some of the best decks in the game-which I fully agree that they have extremely powerful decks. However, not only is your argument flawed, so is your reasoning.

To be clear, Act, Shadow, Funky, Justa all use RD, which is a clean 4/7, not 2/7. To further point out RDs power-Act has changed from maining a blue deck to maining a red deck with RDs, does that not show RD’s power?

As for glow, kuk, BD, they are all average epics that are pretty decent but not legendary. Building a deck without using them is extremely easy.

Judge should not be counted. It has lost lots of its power due to the unique equips thing, so I feel as if it is balanced and should not be brought into discussion here, as any of the top decks could easily swap out judge and still work smoothly.

Flame-I don’t know the exact statistics of who has flame or not, but I’d say, that most of the people mentioned above have TOP TIER DECKS, which in turn translates that they probably are using GDs or Sadis as sacs, which could both be lethal. Instead, however, 3 of the 7 still choose to use a L5 rare over sadis/gds… don’t you find that rather strange, to use a rare over epics??!

Lastly-I do not believe that there are only these 7 people to be considered as top tier. There are many others who can parallel their deck strength, such as Bashandsmash, Rainedraiden, Schambes, Raisin, and the list goes on. Many of these people use RD too, should they not be counted? Furthermore, the predominance of the decks in the top 10 alliances contain RD. Though many may not be top tier, they are soon-to-be…

 
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Originally posted by kevinke6:

To further point out RDs power-Act has changed from maining a blue deck to maining a red deck with RDs, does that not show RD’s power?

Act has dropped his RD in favor of Kronan+Gladior.

 
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Didn’t know that-but anyways, gladior is an endgame card that is virtually impossible for the average player to acquire, and I don’t think it should be taken into account. As for Kronan… I wonder how act uses it, must be in an interesting way. I’d say RD is definitely still more dominant.

 
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Just to clear up a few points about my decks:

1) I did indeed drop RD to be able to play 3 cheaper tanks. I have not noticed any drop off in my win percentage this way.
2)There were two reasons I stopped playing blue. The main reason was blue did not have a decent way to fight fear. Charger was the only half decent card I could use in blue. Salem’s deck was crushing me a ton in live. I switched to red for the eagle, not for the RD. The second was with the new expansion Act of Silence scared me, since a mediocre deck could completely shut blue down with 1-2 of these cards.

When I played blue I would love to see a RD, cause that meant my flame would completely shut him down, while my archmage with robe could eventually get to him. I would be much more scared of seeing a glad or feline, since they could power through my tank with armor easier than RD could.

@kevin I like using Kronan because since he is so cheap it’s not a big deal if he gets killed, and if you only hurt him then VE or Winged Helm can go on and he can cause a ton of damage. Also, I think for many decks (purple and/or red) sad is stronger than flame. For blue I still think flame is better, and for yellow GD is better.

 
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I thought my estimation of who used RD to be correct, if Funky uses one then I will change it to 3 of 7 use one.

SalemDeekat, I disagree with you, I feel every bit you should be on this list, you’re probably the greatest known threat in Dragon for your rank if not for anything else and you’ve managed to make a deck using cards that for the most part are available to everyone, unknowingly you spear headed the affordable, playable, decks. Plus you play very well, I rarely, if ever, see play mistakes on your side.

I will not be taking my arguments for specific cards any further than my first post. I’ve read the other thread and the line is drawn, I know what side you stand on, you know what side I stand on. If those threads couldn’t change you minds about those cards than this one won’t either. However, I can attempt to change your minds on what you’re targeting, or the general calling for nerfs as a whole. I feel nerfing in general is very poor for the growth and general enjoyment of the game. People have put time, money, and effort into getting and playing there cards. If we work on finding way to deal with those cards or bringing up the powerlevel of some cards like Glumbie, it’s effectively extending the general well being of the game as a whole. This thread if nothing else is an anti-nerfing thread.

The 7 names that I picked for this thread are in no doubt top players, but I’m not in the habit of ranking them myself, nor did I or could I have included everyone that deserves to be on this list. Bash, Raine, Schambes, Raisin, and anyone else that I didn’t add I’m sorry, I’m not devaluing your decks or telling you any of these people are worse than anyone else on my list. The 7 that I choose to put up are decks I know or have seen often in Live play. Since this isn’t a thread listing all the top players I didn’t see how rambling past a handful would get my points across any better or worse.

I will visit the argument of resources vs cards played that Jason brought up when I have more time to write. I will simply state for now that it’s horse-pocky to lean on the excuse, there are decks that can contend running few epics that actually need to be opened in packs. So I find the excuse based on little to nothing. I will be going into further depth over the next day or so, so wait for the big answer before you jump on this one.

 
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Exclusive, for some unknown reason, you seem to see Nerfing as a Negative when it reality it promotes the overall growth and enjoyment of the game.

For many people, including myself, variety is an important element in making games enjoyable. Likewise, it becomes quite boring when you play Live and AA and 7/10 of your opponents all use RD and Musc. Something is definitely off when in a game with Hundreds of cards that you come across the same 1 or 2 fight after fight. Yes there will always be a “best” card but it is possible to reduce the gap between the best and the others.

As for the fact that some people spent $$ on RD, nobody is suggesting making the card suck. What people want is a card that is still good but no longer >>>>>>>>> everything else. I think RD users will be fine if their A+ card is modified to become merely an A- or so card

 
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Yeah Stache I noticed you didn’t mention my name in your top deck list. I will get over it. …eventually.

Regardless of his omission, I am with Stache on the nerf concept. Molten Core once had 30 sheild, Desert Striker once had 40 thorns, Kuk and Feline were once 2cc, and Green Dragon once cost 4cc all at level 5 during the initial exp 3 test server. The screams of OP OP OP! were vocal enough that these cards all got nerfed. If they did not would they just be contenders next to Musc and RD? Quite possible. But they were nerfed and now they are low on the list of popular cards. These cards are all still quite usable and good in different ways. The blow to MC was severe enough that people left the game and no one plays that card anymore. It is extremely difficult, rather near impossible, to make all cards have equal weight. How do you compare a 2cc mage to a 4cc tank card? I would rather focus on the cards who could use a boost rather than nerf existing cards. A boost will bring a new card into the mix. A nerf could potentially retire a card from play.

 
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The fact that this game is basically imbalance, you also mentioned some of top decks like use not only RD, but BD or Glow or Kuk or Flame or Judgement. wow, it is really not diversity and kinda bad to show there are many ways to build a good deck wothout RD. 3 color tank choices of 5. lol

Its all about what you are using, doesnt matter what else top players and decks are using.
Then, Could you give us an example what you are having in your present playing deck?
I guess there is at least one RD you are using because you are a smart guy. :)

Generally, there is no doubt flying+shield is the most powerful ability if both of them on a tank. lucky!!! RD has it.
Why cant we call it op or even nerf it because it is the strongest tank?

Atm here is just no way to make RD be more even as other tanks and no way make other tanks more stronger as RD does.
You cant say some people always want it be nerfed is bad though.
Especially, you are one of the RD user too. ^_^Y
I will be more agree with you if you were not using RD in your deck.

I am looking forward to seeing one day other tanks like Glumbie be stronger and close to RD, even its impossible. :P

Also, I agree actuas idea, eagle is the key why people need play red tank with it and now he got a stronger deck. gratzzzz

 
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Imho, RD, BD, glow, snail, MC and pincers are all viable shielded tank choices. If you think RD is the best, is OP and nerf it, some of the others will become the new “best” tank. Then should we nerf it too?
I guess the point stache is trying to put across to everyone who complains about RD, musc, flame etc. is not that they’re not OP. They might as well be, but nerfing isn’t the right way to fix it. Rather we should find in-game alternatives and/or try to boost other cards instead of nerfing the powerful ones.

 
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Just look at the Grim Reapers alliance. 99% of their members use an rd and musc. That may either suggest that they all simply like those cards or that the mentioned cards are very op. I wouldn’t nerf them, though. As previously mentioned there should be more viable alternatives, because currently it’s just tremendously boring to fight vs the same setups all the time.

 
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Now really irabelo, just because a card is a good tank, it’s not OP. The RD on the other hand is OP. It should be balanced, flying has to go away from that ally. The combination of shield and flying is to strong, and he doesnt even need invinc, he just needs a phoenix shield and you can have “fun” with him for a very long time for just 6CC.

It seems to kill all creativity as well, 2 RD, 2 Eagles, 3 Phoenix was the most streamlined deck I had against me. I know I know, he needed the second Dragon for swarms…

RD is overpowered, it needs to stop flying, give him some hitpoints and maybe a little more damage instead. The other mentioned tanks are strong but ok.

 
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It amazes me that people propose boosting other cards instead of Nerfing RD/Musc. So instead of altering 2 cards, it makes more sense to change all other 20+ Epics to make them as good as RD/Musc? If I was a game designer, I’d much rather prefer to focus on changing 2 cards instead of 20+ cards to be as good as those other 2.

Flying + Shield is such a crazy combo that other tanks like Fat Pincers do not even come close. Giving a melee unit Flying is roughly equivalent to multiplying its Life x2. An unarmored RD one essentially has to do 220 damage worth of attacks to kill once you factor in the flying and shield.

All of this is without even mentioning RD’s synergies and the fact that it counters basically everything.

-RD vs Melee: Flying + Shield should pretty much stop/prevent most of the opponent’s attack
-RD vs Range: Shield + Lionheart will not only give you almost total range immunity but also strong melee resistance
-RD vs Magic: The popular RD + Phoenix Shield will slow down Magic a decent bit

*RD basically has an answer for almost everything. Plus Lionheart and Phoenix Shield are popular so it isnt like any of these is an unlikely scenario. We won’t even bring up how explosion has made Awareness Ring more popular, which makes Thorns/Magic even less of a threat than ever before.

There is really no great RD counter. Snail is decent if your opponent lacks awareness Ring and if you dont mind sitting out of Live for a few months to build a deck of an entirely new color. Anti Air is pretty much a joke and gets owned by RD. The closest counter is prob Feline, a card many lack which even at Lvl 5 has difficulty 1 shotting an armored RD

 
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From what I think, people calling nerf nerf nerf is due to bad luck on draws and expensive cards if bought directly from shop. They don’t have the huge selection of cards to counter every situation so nerfing the cards they cannot counter is their natural choice.

Now nerfing the cards rise a huge outcry among the people who are lucky or spend a bunch to buy top tier cards. A top tier monster or lvl 4-5 evo cost 5k token that is $50 or grind for a ridiculous amount of time.

Judgment, the suppose cards of cards, the holy grail for all cards require 500 different cards to be unlock, imagine the time and money people spend when they finally get it, then it was got nerf. It is just human to feel cheat out of their hard work or money. Why other people who do not put in as much effort or money can make their contribution or efforts a mockery.

Upon the LVL 5 monster update, many people leave and nerfing of cards was one of the reason.

So the way do it is actually boosting other cards instead of nerfing cards. The game will appease players from both sides instead of grieving one side.

Changing 2 cards instead of 20+ cards? Come on, when the cry for nerf ends? Cry to nerf snail, cry to nerf kuk MM, cry to nerf judge, cry to nerf gleaming, cry to nerf crown, cry to nerf flame, cry to nerf clam, cry to nerf glow …… and now cry to nerf RD and grim, another 250 different card achievement. Do you think the list will end???

After RD and grim is nerf, invincible will be next on the list for nerf. Then maybe the explode armor, the list will go on and on. People will find ways to use cards to their advantage, then many people who have such cards follow, then outcry for nerf, then another creativity stump, then people who put in too much get mortified and left, some people find another ways to use cards to their advantage, the loops goes on……

 
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-Snail, Kuk, Judge, MM, Gleaming, Clerical, Flame, and Glow are all fine how they are and do not need a Nerf.

A card changing from A+ caliber to A Caliber is not a valid reason for people to quit. Maybe if it gets nerfed to like C- or worse caliber I could see people quitting but nobody is saying to make it Glumbie caliber

-Nerfing has nothing to do with Luck. It more has to do with people getting bored playing vs the same cards in every battle and other cards being so OP they they are an auto include for almost every deck that has it (VE). For example look at Grim Reaper, almost everyone who has been playing for any bit of time has access to it yet many of those same people still want it nerfed.

-You are right that VE needs a nerf and possibly Invinc as well, although we are talking about monsters in this board and not equips

 
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Note that we are talking about nerfs in general on this board. The act of nerfing, the claims of OP.

Now then, when we talk about the nerfing of Snail, Kuk, Judge, MM, Gleaming, Clerical, Flame, Glow, Bagpipes, Staff of Power, Musculard, Molten Core, Crocodime; It’s because they were previous targets of nerfing, some of them were nerfed, some of the nerfs (Bagpipes, Judgement) helped the growth of the game, others, (Gleaming, Staff of Power, Molten Core, Crocodime, and an off screen Kuk) hurt the community. I believe, from previous experience, that the general calling of nerfs is poor for the growth of the game. I am Judging this opon seeing great players leave because of time, effort, and money being poured down the drain when cards they put the above into changed into a different card.

As we seen from the Snail issue, which was being pushed for a nerf much, much more than RD is now, a new set came out, changes in the way decks were built and cards to deal with Snail arrived. Was Snail nerfed? No. Is edgebee’s effort to make Snail much more deal-able effective, YES! If my first post proved anything it’s that you can run non-RD decks and beat RD. And yes you have access to most of the cards, and yes you need to level them to level 5 to deal with level 5s, and yes you play with 14 cards vs 14 cards so sometimes you have to get creative with more than one, and yes edgebee will visit ways to take the edge off of cards that has public outcrys against, and yes you’ll have to wait for the new sets or changes to cards that won’t have an effect on the general population.

If my first post proved anything it’s that there are decks that can already answer RD, many of them on the backs of unlockables, so no, we don’t need to buff 20+ epics. Glow and Kuk, Flame and Clam, Fat Pincers and Blue Dragon, Gladior and Feline Rider, Dungeon Master and Musculard, Arch Mage and Squire f, Green Dragon and Sadi. These cards are all in good standing against RD, or in the general meta right now as a whole. Bringing up the power level of Glumbie, Squid, War Wraith is what we’re talking about, at least for monsters. And I don’t care what side you’re on, you can’t tell me that nerfing RD will increase the playablity of any of those 3 cards.

You can change a good amount of cards with a buff, but you won’t with a nerf, not when there’s so many cards that can just slide into the spot with nothing around them changing.

 
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-Nobody is debating the fact that RD isn’t a 100% guarantee victory card. However, that is not the requirement for a card to be OP.

-If a card can only be “dealt” with by either having almost every card in the game or by changing the color of your deck then it is by almost an definition OP.

-The fact that Edge might have Nerfed cards too much in the past is not a good reason for why a card should not be properly nerfed now.

-Glow, Kuk, Fat Pincers, Gladior, Dungeon Master, Archmage, Squire F, GD, and Sadi are nowhere close to the threats that RD is. I see RD played more than everyone of these monsters combined. Out of 10 Dragon matches u will likely see RD at least 7 times and the cards listed above you would be likely to see played in the field a combined 0-2 times on average. This disparity further shows how OP RD is compared to the cards you listed.

 
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Originally posted by JasonJ29:

-Snail, Kuk, Judge, MM, Gleaming, Clerical, Flame, and Glow are all fine how they are and do not need a Nerf.

A card changing from A+ caliber to A Caliber is not a valid reason for people to quit. Maybe if it gets nerfed to like C- or worse caliber I could see people quitting but nobody is saying to make it Glumbie caliber

-Nerfing has nothing to do with Luck. It more has to do with people getting bored playing vs the same cards in every battle and other cards being so OP they they are an auto include for almost every deck that has it (VE). For example look at Grim Reaper, almost everyone who has been playing for any bit of time has access to it yet many of those same people still want it nerfed.

-You are right that VE needs a nerf and possibly Invinc as well, although we are talking about monsters in this board and not equips

I am saying that cry for nerf will hardly end, so it is not a reason not to boost the 20+ cards as in the end you will need to nerf 20+ or more cards to “Balance out the game”. Not that Snail, kuk, judge and whatever actually need to be nerf more.

Maybe my language is not so good as I cannot find in my previous post that nerfing have to do with luck.

As for card downgrade in caliber is not a valid reason for people quitting, wow, you are quite generous and rich. If I spend hundreds of dollars buying RD and its EVO and phoenix Shield and such or grind for month for them. I will be quite angry. You can laugh it off and thinking it is good for the game, you are big hearted. Can you share some of your riches with me so I can invest in other deck that does not involve RD?

 
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Again, this is not a thread about wether or not RD is OP. That thread is here, where I explain why you find RD more often than other tanks.
Now, back to the topic: I mentioned before we have around 8-10 mainstream tanks. If we nerf one of them, we’ll have 7-9. That might solve your problems in dealing with a specific card, but it’s not increasing diversity, it’s reducing it. On the other hand, if we buff other cards, we might have 10-15 viable tanks. I ask, isn’t that much preferable?