Forums Ninja Warz

Speed vs. Power

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Damage

Ok, so there are people that argue that speed in this game matters very little. I made this thread to prove that speed is an essential factor in this game. Let’s say you have a 100% chance of critting 1 out of every 4 hits. And let’s say one weapon does 40 damage, and the other does 10. And let’s say that the faster one can hit 4 times as fast as the slower powerful one. And that the critical strike is 2.5x normal damage. So look: 10 + 10 + 10 + 25. 55 > 40. Although, if you allow the stronger weapon to strike 4 times, you would have 40 + 40 + 40 + 100. During that time, the faster weapon would have dealt 55(4), which is 220, which is the exact sum of 40 + 40 + 40 + 100. So really, you cannot say that power matter more than speed, as they are both equally important.

 
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Dodge Rate and Accuracy

Always remember that there is always a chance of missing an attack. If you give an equal amount of miss rate to both weapons, this is what happens: Let’s say they both have a 100% chance of missing 1 out of every 4 attacks. So we will subtract one out of every four addends from each weapon. We will subtract 40(10×4) from the weaker weapon and 40 from the stronger weapon. As you notice, nothing has changed. However, if you were to miss the critical strike of the stronger weapon, it is very devastating. In a mathematical sense, subtracting the critical strikes from both weapons would result in equality among both equations. However if you think about it, missing all 4 of your critical strikes from your faster weapon is less likely to happen. You first have a 1/4 chance of missing a critical strike, but then it starts to become 1/5, then 1/7, and finally 1/13. So missing a critical is more likely to occur in a slower weapon, allowing the faster weapon to take dominance over it.

Ok, if you’re all a little confused about how the probability works, then here is where the numbers come from. Just to be clear, this is probability for missing a critical strike on the faster weapon. So in the span of the 4 attacks from the slower weapon, you would have 16 weaker attacks overall, 4 of which would be critical strikes. So the original probability of missing a critical strike is 4/16 or 1/4, where the numerator is the number of critical strikes and the denominator is the number of attacks overall. Once you miss one critical strike though, assuming it is your first attack, the fraction changes to 3/15 or 1/5. Notice that the denominator changes as the number of attacks left is reduced by 1. Then it continues on in the same way to 2/14 or 1/7, and finally to 1/13.

Oh, and if you still have problems with the math, then there’s only one thing left to do: U NID 2 LERN2MATH. xD

 
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Armor

Ok, now let us say that the damage of both weapons have been reduced significantly. If you do the math, as I have done, you will realize that nothing begins to change until the damage of both weapons begins to become miniscule. Once they drop to a range where the 4:1 ratio applies only to speed and not damage, the faster weapon becomes a more favorable weapon. For example, if the damage of both weapons is decreased to 10%, the faster weapon will deal a minimum of 1 damage per attack, whereas the slower weapon will deal 4 damage per attack. In this 4:1 relationship, nothing changes. However, if they are reduced any further than that, you will see that the damage no longer applies to the 4:1 ratio. For example, if the slower weapon deals 3 damage when reduced further, whereas the faster weapon cannot change as it has already reached the minimum, the faster weapon will do more damage than the slower weapon. This is proven through this equation: 4(1 + 1 + 1 + 2.5) vs. 3 + 3 + 3 + 7.5

 
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No this thread is wrong because I say so!

Just kidding, it’s about time someone posted this. Thanks!

 
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The Third scenario seems unlikely to happend, but no other argument there.
For the first two, you are looking just for small picture. In longer battle is has little importance and becomes insignificant (for example in battle of 2 lvl. 60). On the other hand in short battles like black vs white it doesnt really have signifikance either for obvious reasons.
I am not saying that your math is wrong (it not exactly University grade math is it :D) i am saying that in a real (imaginary computer game world) battle the final difference will be somewhere around 1% (quess) which for me is insignificant.
PS: I havent been in situation when i was choosing between two weapons with the same DPS and different speed, and i dont think that i am gonna be so ….

 
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We are basing this on a lot of assumptions about how the weapons work. In this laboratory setting where you controlled the variables it would be a lot easier to make your point. If anyone knows how many attacks per second each speed it putting out please share. Otherwise, while it may add up, this math is only correct under these circumstances.

Keep in mind that the fast attacking ninja that gets his face critted off doesn’t get off 10 attacks.

 
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I just threw those numbers on my HP, simulated 100 fights with RNG and did some math with the numbers I got.

My graph shows this:
Faster weapon: almost straight line.
Slower weapon: lots of spikes. (from the crits and misses)

Conclusion:
Both have the same overall damage.
The slower weapon have a wider damage range, the faster weapon is stable.

I hope someone finds it usefull.

 
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and also, if the stronger weapon finishes off a ninja with say, 50 hp left, with a strike dealing 150, 100 of the damage would be “wasted” whereas with the faster weapon, this number would be a lot smaller

 
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Originally posted by Kr0w5had3:

and also, if the stronger weapon finishes off a ninja with say, 50 hp left, with a strike dealing 150, 100 of the damage would be “wasted” whereas with the faster weapon, this number would be a lot smaller

that just means that they died b4 they can get a next hit, but i think the thing that’ll affect which is better is base on if POWER adds damage to each attack, if power adds a specific amount of damage for every attack than speed will b better in which case can affect the outcome completely (currently I find power a little pointless, which may need updating)

 
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Originally posted by WarningBell:

I just threw those numbers on my HP, simulated 100 fights with RNG and did some math with the numbers I got.

My graph shows this:
Faster weapon: almost straight line.
Slower weapon: lots of spikes. (from the crits and misses)

Conclusion:
Both have the same overall damage.
The slower weapon have a wider damage range, the faster weapon is stable.

I hope someone finds it usefull.

The results of this data are very helpful and supportive of what I am trying to point out. As you can see, the spikes no doubt were caused by the offset from misses and critical strikes. Misses such as these would matter little with faster, weaker attacks as they are weak to begin with and thus would little change the end result, explaining the resulting stability of the weaker, faster weapon. Thanks for posting this.

 
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Originally posted by Kullraz:

We are basing this on a lot of assumptions about how the weapons work. In this laboratory setting where you controlled the variables it would be a lot easier to make your point. If anyone knows how many attacks per second each speed it putting out please share. Otherwise, while it may add up, this math is only correct under these circumstances.

Keep in mind that the fast attacking ninja that gets his face critted off doesn’t get off 10 attacks.

These are not assumptions based on how the weapons work, rather they are counterexamples to the assumption that power trumps speed. I did not originally note that these equations work out on any scale because I assumed that most would know already know that. But it does factor into how speed and power work essentially in every sense. You say that the fast attacking ninja does not get a chance to attack if they are killed outright, but is it not obvious that the fast attacking ninja hits first because it is indeed the FAST attacking ninja? And anyway, this is only a thread for speed vs. power in general. Again, I am not assuming anything about how the weapons work, as I am not a developer and have no such information. The point of the thread was simply to show how both factors work against each other. In Ninja Warz, it essentially depends on the build and this just may help people in deciding which relics to choose.

 
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Originally posted by Abolic:

The Third scenario seems unlikely to happend, but no other argument there.
For the first two, you are looking just for small picture. In longer battle is has little importance and becomes insignificant (for example in battle of 2 lvl. 60). On the other hand in short battles like black vs white it doesnt really have signifikance either for obvious reasons.
I am not saying that your math is wrong (it not exactly University grade math is it :D) i am saying that in a real (imaginary computer game world) battle the final difference will be somewhere around 1% (quess) which for me is insignificant.
PS: I havent been in situation when i was choosing between two weapons with the same DPS and different speed, and i dont think that i am gonna be so ….

I understand that the third scenario depicted regarding “armor” is not likely to occur, but I did not say it was likely I was just putting it out there because I have come across people that believe that with armor, the weaker, faster attacks do next to nothing, when this is in fact not true at all. Given both opponents have the same armor and damage reduction, nothing changes as only the scale is changed. For example: 4/16 is the same thing as 1/4, it’s just the scale of which it is seen. As for your comment on how the scenarios regarding damage and dodge rate & accuracy only work in a “small picture” sense, that is just not true. Like I said, it is merely the scale by which it is looked at. As I have replied to other posters, I did not originally note that these calculations work out on any scale because I assumed that most would know already know that. And whereas I have absolutely no idea where you got your 1%(I’m assuming that was an off-the-top guess), I understand what you mean by the insignificance of the overall difference. But remember that I only post this to show the aspects of both speed and power, not to favor one over the other. I mean, anyone would obviously choose the stronger weapon if the speed is not THAT much slower. But in cases where you have say a “fastest” weapon and a “slowest” weapon, this is where the calculations come in handy, as you might notice that that is when you start to wonder “which weapon should I pick?”

 
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So, which weapon is better?
Weapon A: 14 dps and speed dial just less than half the highest speed value
Weapon B: 12dps, but speed dial just 2 points less than the highest speed

 
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AAAHH This makes soooooooooooooooooooo much sense i get it… maybe

 
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pick the highest dps tho 12dps might be better if some1 can prove that power will give a “FIXED” amount of dmg, kinda hard for me 2 cuz i dont have much power relics and having so much ninjas makes it hard 2 follow( just prove by fighting 1 with only power relics and than taking it off with 1 thats the slowest u can get while other 1 is fastest u can get and see if the numbers increase the same while trying not 2 use crit relics cuz it makes more numbers and harder 2 tell)

 
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just pick the faster DPS….. problem solved.

 
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I assume relic that boost attack speed give higher boost to faster weapons

 
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I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

 
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Sorry for double posting but since i can’t find an edit button i need to correct something. Dodge and crit isn’t the same means that there is a chance and not like a dodge every 3 strikes. It means that there is no definite timing of the dodges.

 
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Originally posted by willy123096:

I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

Whenever I use my Katara, it hits 5 (or possibly six; haven’t played this morning) times per second. Slower hits once per second or until the DPS is accounted for.

 
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Originally posted by EdgOfLight:
Originally posted by willy123096:

I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

Whenever I use my Katara, it hits 5 (or possibly six; haven’t played this morning) times per second. Slower hits once per second or until the DPS is accounted for.

Hmm that point is true, but still the crit chance and dodge chance still can’t be said to work in the way that WarShadow670 said they will because it is never said to be in percentage. Though he didn’t use percentages directly please take note that fractions are another way to express possibility too and never had it said in the game that +20 (<- referring to zombie eyes) means anything except +20 agility. What they are out of we still don’t know making this whoole thread unreliable.

 
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i think around 80+ crit = 100% crit so i heard bcuz some1 tested that having always hit at 80+ unless i misunderstood
Way 2 pick best relic; get the highest total percentage for speed,armour,hp,agility,crit ( for convience agility/crit will be counted as 1%) 2nd, try 2 balance out the percentage if you can, like having 50% hp and 50% armour can be better than having 110% hp(1000+ 50%(1000)=1500+50%armour= 2250hp while 1000+110%(1000)= 2100) crit will be good but its weaker again thoses that have agility since crit and the chance 2 hit are sepreated, so if u made a crit and u miss u still do 0 dmg (1000hp + 50% agility(agility is counted as 1%), 500/2(normal dmg rate 50% of the time against half hit chance)+ (200%dmg x 500, from double dmg 50% of the time)= 250+500=750hp

simply put; 50%armour+50%hp > 110% hp, 50+ agility > 50+ crit

this is based on that both sides having same speed/dps, the dmg is all average and that the highest hp wins, if i made a mistake in calculation go ahead and correct me, and i didnt add power since i dont get how it even affect the dmg rate, and armour is greatly less effective at over 50% as having 60% armour will be like having 51%

 
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dodge chance is based on opponents agility as far as i know and that 1point for agility/crit is alittle higher than 2(while i dont think its possible 2 get 100% agility like 100%armour tho)

 
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Basic questions, observations, comments

It’s great you went through the trouble, WarShadow

I myself believe that there is a significant difference between fast and slow weapons at a theoretically equal DPS. But this is an unlikely case (few sets of weapons share DPS but vary widely in speed). I also ran a similar simulation to WarningBell’s with similar results: on 10 samples, fast weapons have a more reliable damage output, while slow weapons have a greater variety of outcomes (from terrible to friggintastic).

Although I’m somewhat of a low level player, I do have a rather interesting strategy that uses speed over power: I equip my weakest ninjas with the fastest weapons within a reasonable DPS range, rather than the best DPS weapons. I do this because I believe, from observation, that when two ninja engage, there is no hit attempt at time=0; the first hit attempt is at time=T-speed, where T is the amount of time required for the slowest theoretical weapon (at 0 on the speed dial) to strike. Which means something essential for my supporting, weaker ninjas: if they engage stronger ninjas, they may be flawless-killed by the enemy, meaning they contributed nothing to weakening total enemy HP. This will be far more likely to happen if I equip them with the best DPS, slower weapons, than with the fastest weapons at a reasonable DPS. Even if my weaker ninjas do not engage a ninja that can kill them in one shot, the tempo of a stronger enemy ninja wielding a slowish weapon (supposing we both have no relics and 0% dodge, and no crits happen), let’s say he hits every 1sec. and I hit every 0.4sec, will allow:
T=0s →no hits
T=0.4s →I hit
T=0.8s →I hit
T=1.0s →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0.8*DPS dam; he may have done less than 1*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)
T=1.2s →I hit
T=1.6s →I hit
T=2.0s →we both hit (if I die, I did of 2.0*DPS dam; he may have done less than 2*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)

If I had a weapon slower than that stronger enemy ninja, say at a tempo of every 1.2sec:
T=0 → no hits
T=1.0 → he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0*DPS)
T=1.2 → I hit
T=2.0 →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 1.2*DPS)

…and so on. As you can see, as long as I’m fighting the same theoretical enemy ninja, and as long as my theoretical ninja is weak enough that he is likely to die quickly, I will have better total damage output from that ninja if I’m using a faster weapon of a given DPS than a slower weapon of that same DPS. Now since the same DPS won’t be seen often on weapons, I can use poorly approximated numbers for tempo to decide how much lower DPS is worth it. In the theoretical case provided in the example above, so long as the faster weapon has more than 0.6*slower_weapon_DPS (which is the result of 1.2/2.0), it is a better weapon.

By using this tactic, I’ve reliably taken out clans with higher total HP and higher theoretical total damage output by simply making sure my supporting ninjas get some/several hits in before croaking. My main ninja, however, simply uses the best DPS-weapon available.

 
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CONFUSED
I dont konw where you got this…