Forums Ninja Warz

Speed vs. Power page 2

70 posts

Flag Post
Originally posted by setherythe:

Basic questions, observations, comments

It’s great you went through the trouble, WarShadow

I myself believe that there is a significant difference between fast and slow weapons at a theoretically equal DPS. But this is an unlikely case (few sets of weapons share DPS but vary widely in speed). I also ran a similar simulation to WarningBell’s with similar results: on 10 samples, fast weapons have a more reliable damage output, while slow weapons have a greater variety of outcomes (from terrible to friggintastic).

Although I’m somewhat of a low level player, I do have a rather interesting strategy that uses speed over power: I equip my weakest ninjas with the fastest weapons within a reasonable DPS range, rather than the best DPS weapons. I do this because I believe, from observation, that when two ninja engage, there is no hit attempt at time=0; the first hit attempt is at time=T-speed, where T is the amount of time required for the slowest theoretical weapon (at 0 on the speed dial) to strike. Which means something essential for my supporting, weaker ninjas: if they engage stronger ninjas, they may be flawless-killed by the enemy, meaning they contributed nothing to weakening total enemy HP. This will be far more likely to happen if I equip them with the best DPS, slower weapons, than with the fastest weapons at a reasonable DPS. Even if my weaker ninjas do not engage a ninja that can kill them in one shot, the tempo of a stronger enemy ninja wielding a slowish weapon (supposing we both have no relics and 0% dodge, and no crits happen), let’s say he hits every 1sec. and I hit every 0.4sec, will allow:
T=0s →no hits
T=0.4s →I hit
T=0.8s →I hit
T=1.0s →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0.8*DPS dam; he may have done less than 1*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)
T=1.2s →I hit
T=1.6s →I hit
T=2.0s →we both hit (if I die, I did of 2.0*DPS dam; he may have done less than 2*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)

If I had a weapon slower than that stronger enemy ninja, say at a tempo of every 1.2sec:
T=0 → no hits
T=1.0 → he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0*DPS)
T=1.2 → I hit
T=2.0 →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 1.2*DPS)

…and so on. As you can see, as long as I’m fighting the same theoretical enemy ninja, and as long as my theoretical ninja is weak enough that he is likely to die quickly, I will have better total damage output from that ninja if I’m using a faster weapon of a given DPS than a slower weapon of that same DPS. Now since the same DPS won’t be seen often on weapons, I can use poorly approximated numbers for tempo to decide how much lower DPS is worth it. In the theoretical case provided in the example above, so long as the faster weapon has more than 0.6*slower_weapon_DPS (which is the result of 1.2/2.0), it is a better weapon.

By using this tactic, I’ve reliably taken out clans with higher total HP and higher theoretical total damage output by simply making sure my supporting ninjas get some/several hits in before croaking. My main ninja, however, simply uses the best DPS-weapon available.

that’ll mean that against clans using similar low lvl white belts can be problem tho since supposely if they were equip with best dps than they can win, while equipping fastest/low dps can cause them 2 lose making it alittle like a double-edge sword, having that with weak lvl 1s barely able 2 survive might help but the chances off finding a player that suits this will b harder at higher lvls with all the relics/different weapons which certain lvls can have fast weapons with best dps for it’s lvl, also its kinda important 2 remember that high hp doesnt always win,
ps; it can help if some1 can find out how power works which i think is most important 2 determine weather or not slow/fast weapon have a big difference other than the stable/unstableness

 
Flag Post

just use the 100% critical build and the fastest weapon you can find… simple stuff ppl, its not rocket science

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by willy123096:

I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

I understand what you are getting at and I’m happy to clarify what this thread was meant to represent. First of all, I did not claim to have any graph and am really confused about how you came to that accusation. The closest I ever came to saying I had any such graph was my commenting on another poster’s reply to this thread regarding a graph that other person claimed to have had. Secondly, as an answer to your question about “who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second,” well that person must be me of course. I am not saying that any of the weapons in this game have the fixed qualities I demonstrate in my test, I am merely going out of my way to prove that speed and damage are both important. So there is a 100% as long as I say there is because it is my test, and it is not for anyone else to say that there is “none of this” or “none of that” because, once again, this was a test to help those who were only wondering why speed is also important, as many are under the impression that damage is most important. I am not assuming anything in this thread about how the weapons in this game work, as you might have known if you had taken the time to carefully read and understand the replies of posters prior to yours, but I will say again that these numbers are fixed so that it is easier to understand both aspects of the game, those aspects being speed and damage. So yes, I am only just making numbers, but these numbers are to help those who are just looking for an easy answer. I am sorry if they are not as quick to catch up on these things as you might be, but I wish to help them, nonetheless. Thank you, have a nice day~

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by willy123096:
Originally posted by EdgOfLight:
Originally posted by willy123096:

I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

Whenever I use my Katara, it hits 5 (or possibly six; haven’t played this morning) times per second. Slower hits once per second or until the DPS is accounted for.

Hmm that point is true, but still the crit chance and dodge chance still can’t be said to work in the way that WarShadow670 said they will because it is never said to be in percentage. Though he didn’t use percentages directly please take note that fractions are another way to express possibility too and never had it said in the game that +20 (<- referring to zombie eyes) means anything except +20 agility. What they are out of we still don’t know making this whoole thread unreliable.

Once again, never did I say that this is how the weapons in the game work, nor did I directly say that +x means x%. You are looking at this thread from an incorrect perspective as I am not trying to prove that crit chance and dodge chance work in the way it does in my test. I am not a game administrator for this game so I have no such information. So the numbers in this test are all hypothetical so that both aspects of the game, speed and damage, are clearly understood. This thread can’t be unreliable because it wasn’t assuming anything in the first place. And second, you referred to me as a “he,” and I would ask for you to next time appropriate the opposite gender, i.e. he/she, so that you don’t end up informally assuming one’s sex, as I am a female thank you very much.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by GMtester:

CONFUSED
I dont konw where you got this…

I sincerely apologize if you are confused about my testing and end results, so I will try to clarify once more. These numbers, both base and percentage-wise, are all hypothetical. I made it so in an attempt to help misinformed players to better understand both speed and damage. None of these numbers are meant to represent any weapon/relic in the game, they are merely here for reference to both aspects of the game, in the common event that there are those that believe one aspect is more important than the other, or even that one might be entirely useless. Again, I really am sorry if this has caused you, or anybody else for that matter, much confusion.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by setherythe:

Basic questions, observations, comments

It’s great you went through the trouble, WarShadow

I myself believe that there is a significant difference between fast and slow weapons at a theoretically equal DPS. But this is an unlikely case (few sets of weapons share DPS but vary widely in speed). I also ran a similar simulation to WarningBell’s with similar results: on 10 samples, fast weapons have a more reliable damage output, while slow weapons have a greater variety of outcomes (from terrible to friggintastic).

Although I’m somewhat of a low level player, I do have a rather interesting strategy that uses speed over power: I equip my weakest ninjas with the fastest weapons within a reasonable DPS range, rather than the best DPS weapons. I do this because I believe, from observation, that when two ninja engage, there is no hit attempt at time=0; the first hit attempt is at time=T-speed, where T is the amount of time required for the slowest theoretical weapon (at 0 on the speed dial) to strike. Which means something essential for my supporting, weaker ninjas: if they engage stronger ninjas, they may be flawless-killed by the enemy, meaning they contributed nothing to weakening total enemy HP. This will be far more likely to happen if I equip them with the best DPS, slower weapons, than with the fastest weapons at a reasonable DPS. Even if my weaker ninjas do not engage a ninja that can kill them in one shot, the tempo of a stronger enemy ninja wielding a slowish weapon (supposing we both have no relics and 0% dodge, and no crits happen), let’s say he hits every 1sec. and I hit every 0.4sec, will allow:
T=0s →no hits
T=0.4s →I hit
T=0.8s →I hit
T=1.0s →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0.8*DPS dam; he may have done less than 1*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)
T=1.2s →I hit
T=1.6s →I hit
T=2.0s →we both hit (if I die, I did of 2.0*DPS dam; he may have done less than 2*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)

If I had a weapon slower than that stronger enemy ninja, say at a tempo of every 1.2sec:
T=0 → no hits
T=1.0 → he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0*DPS)
T=1.2 → I hit
T=2.0 →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 1.2*DPS)

…and so on. As you can see, as long as I’m fighting the same theoretical enemy ninja, and as long as my theoretical ninja is weak enough that he is likely to die quickly, I will have better total damage output from that ninja if I’m using a faster weapon of a given DPS than a slower weapon of that same DPS. Now since the same DPS won’t be seen often on weapons, I can use poorly approximated numbers for tempo to decide how much lower DPS is worth it. In the theoretical case provided in the example above, so long as the faster weapon has more than 0.6*slower_weapon_DPS (which is the result of 1.2/2.0), it is a better weapon.

By using this tactic, I’ve reliably taken out clans with higher total HP and higher theoretical total damage output by simply making sure my supporting ninjas get some/several hits in before croaking. My main ninja, however, simply uses the best DPS-weapon available.

Thank you for posting this. It seems you went through the trouble of getting into some math as well, which I highly commend you for. I understand your point and can confidently say that there is not much more to be said, we have broken it down as detailed as possible. If it is still confusing for others, I am really at a loss for explanations. But you seem to understand how both aspects of the game work in relation to each other. This data can be very useful for future preferences and I hope others may be of use to others.

 
Flag Post

Attack speed relics does increase DPS.

Edit: Let’s do some inside looks to prove my statement.

This is my ninja’s equipped weapon stats with my attack speed relics removed:

“weapon”: {
“name”: “Blood Stone Staff”,
“attributes”: {
“speed”: 55,
“damage”: “26.62”,
“base_speed”: “55”,
“base_damage”: “26.62”
}
},

Now, the base damage of the weapon (the one listed in the shop and on your inventories) is calculated like so:

DPS = (100 / base_speed) * base_damage

In our case thats:

DPS = (100 / 55) * 26.62 Or 48.4 DPS, just like the game tells us.

With no attack speed or other relics, the “speed” and “damage” attributes are the same as the base values.

Now, with attack speed relics added:

“weapon”: {
“name”: “Blood Stone Staff”,
“attributes”: {
“speed”: 30.555555555556,
“damage”: “26.62”,
“base_speed”: “55”,
“base_damage”: “26.62”
}
},

So with the math we did before:

DPS = (100 / 30.555555555556) * 26.62 Or 87.12 DPS, this is our hidden DPS (aka our Real DPS).

The relics added totaled +80% attack speed, which, waddya know it, 87.12 DPS is 80% larger than 48.4.

Have fun kids.

 
Flag Post

Uhhh… Where did you come up with the base speed for the weapon?

 
Flag Post

From the game data?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by setherythe:

Basic questions, observations, comments

It’s great you went through the trouble, WarShadow

I myself believe that there is a significant difference between fast and slow weapons at a theoretically equal DPS. But this is an unlikely case (few sets of weapons share DPS but vary widely in speed). I also ran a similar simulation to WarningBell’s with similar results: on 10 samples, fast weapons have a more reliable damage output, while slow weapons have a greater variety of outcomes (from terrible to friggintastic).

Although I’m somewhat of a low level player, I do have a rather interesting strategy that uses speed over power: I equip my weakest ninjas with the fastest weapons within a reasonable DPS range, rather than the best DPS weapons. I do this because I believe, from observation, that when two ninja engage, there is no hit attempt at time=0; the first hit attempt is at time=T-speed, where T is the amount of time required for the slowest theoretical weapon (at 0 on the speed dial) to strike. Which means something essential for my supporting, weaker ninjas: if they engage stronger ninjas, they may be flawless-killed by the enemy, meaning they contributed nothing to weakening total enemy HP. This will be far more likely to happen if I equip them with the best DPS, slower weapons, than with the fastest weapons at a reasonable DPS. Even if my weaker ninjas do not engage a ninja that can kill them in one shot, the tempo of a stronger enemy ninja wielding a slowish weapon (supposing we both have no relics and 0% dodge, and no crits happen), let’s say he hits every 1sec. and I hit every 0.4sec, will allow:
T=0s →no hits
T=0.4s →I hit
T=0.8s →I hit
T=1.0s →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0.8*DPS dam; he may have done less than 1*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)
T=1.2s →I hit
T=1.6s →I hit
T=2.0s →we both hit (if I die, I did of 2.0*DPS dam; he may have done less than 2*his_DPS, if my hp is lower than that dam)

If I had a weapon slower than that stronger enemy ninja, say at a tempo of every 1.2sec:
T=0 → no hits
T=1.0 → he hits (if I die, I did a total of 0*DPS)
T=1.2 → I hit
T=2.0 →he hits (if I die, I did a total of 1.2*DPS)

…and so on. As you can see, as long as I’m fighting the same theoretical enemy ninja, and as long as my theoretical ninja is weak enough that he is likely to die quickly, I will have better total damage output from that ninja if I’m using a faster weapon of a given DPS than a slower weapon of that same DPS. Now since the same DPS won’t be seen often on weapons, I can use poorly approximated numbers for tempo to decide how much lower DPS is worth it. In the theoretical case provided in the example above, so long as the faster weapon has more than 0.6*slower_weapon_DPS (which is the result of 1.2/2.0), it is a better weapon.

By using this tactic, I’ve reliably taken out clans with higher total HP and higher theoretical total damage output by simply making sure my supporting ninjas get some/several hits in before croaking. My main ninja, however, simply uses the best DPS-weapon available.

this actually works, i fought a guy with the same lvl and wep as my strongest, and he had one more white belt, but slower weps with his whitebelts, so i won

 
Flag Post

hell,why you dont ask to developers instead of making discussions on suppositions??

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by WarShadow670:
Originally posted by willy123096:

I’m not sure about this. First, you claim to have a graph. Where is it? Second, who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second? what if it takes 1 second to strike once and the “slow” weapon strikes every two seconds? There are many unanswered questions. Dodge isn’t the same and crit isn’t the same. There is no “100%” because its not even counted in percentage. It is clearly said in the items that it is something like “crit:+10.” We can’t assume +10 means 10%. it can be 10/200 or 10/1000. So please if you can answer all these questions this threat will only be convincing. Other then that, there is no proof whatsoever because you are just making numbers. Thank you, have a nice day.

I understand what you are getting at and I’m happy to clarify what this thread was meant to represent. First of all, I did not claim to have any graph and am really confused about how you came to that accusation. The closest I ever came to saying I had any such graph was my commenting on another poster’s reply to this thread regarding a graph that other person claimed to have had. Secondly, as an answer to your question about “who says your “fast” weapon strikes 4 times per second,” well that person must be me of course. I am not saying that any of the weapons in this game have the fixed qualities I demonstrate in my test, I am merely going out of my way to prove that speed and damage are both important. So there is a 100% as long as I say there is because it is my test, and it is not for anyone else to say that there is “none of this” or “none of that” because, once again, this was a test to help those who were only wondering why speed is also important, as many are under the impression that damage is most important. I am not assuming anything in this thread about how the weapons in this game work, as you might have known if you had taken the time to carefully read and understand the replies of posters prior to yours, but I will say again that these numbers are fixed so that it is easier to understand both aspects of the game, those aspects being speed and damage. So yes, I am only just making numbers, but these numbers are to help those who are just looking for an easy answer. I am sorry if they are not as quick to catch up on these things as you might be, but I wish to help them, nonetheless. Thank you, have a nice day~

Well in the first page apparantly you said you looked at the graph and found it useful and supportive. Well i bet half of us here surely don’t want to miss out on a graph that supports what you are talking about if i’m correct. Surely you can link it up somewhere so we can see what you mean. Why mention it if no one knows what you are talking about anyways? And second in official english if we don’t know gender of the opposite we can refer to them as “he.” Though this rule has been slacking off while the new generation comes about it still remains as the historical English grammar.

Edit: Seems that i’m messing up with commas here >.<" but i mean "Though this rule is not commonly in use, due to the new generation of people that say it’s sexist, it is still part of historical English grammar
Edit#2: i looked at setherythe’s comment and found it very explicit. i find no places that need explaining; therefore, i truely think that he is correct.
Edit#3: Here’s a link to prove that historical English grammar use masculine nouns for unclear genders (also you can see that it’s an edu site which is a much more reliable resource): http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-sensitive-language/

 
Flag Post

you guys make things so complicated…
Lets look at it this way: Faster weapons are better, but only if the DPS is the same or better than the slow weapon.
All these things involving the relationship between speed and armor, crits, and dodges matter so little in the battlefield, there is no sense worrying about them. just pick the better DPS and if they are the same pick the higher speed.

The one exception to this is when equipping white belts, you should never put a slow weapon on a white belt (since they probably will get killed before they even get to attack).

 
Flag Post

matter so little? oh my gosh you don’t know what armor+ dodge can do right? 500 Crit can become 0 with dodge and with max armor it can become 250 damage and you call this little? I just can’t believe you, sorry.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by willy123096:

matter so little? oh my gosh you don’t know what armor+ dodge can do right? 500 Crit can become 0 with dodge and with max armor it can become 250 damage and you call this little? I just can’t believe you, sorry.

First of all, i could only understand half of what you wrote. Secondly, instead of doing all these theories how about you ACTUALLY test it.
sample test: fight someone close to you in skill (meaning you don’t win by very much hp). fight 5 times with a slow weapon, then fight 5 times with a fast weapon (same or very close dps). I guarantee you won’t see much of a difference.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by ThievingSix:

Attack speed relics does increase DPS.

Edit: Let’s do some inside looks to prove my statement.

This is my ninja’s equipped weapon stats with my attack speed relics removed:

“weapon”: {
“name”: “Blood Stone Staff”,
“attributes”: {
“speed”: 55,
“damage”: “26.62”,
“base_speed”: “55”,
“base_damage”: “26.62”
}
},

Now, the base damage of the weapon (the one listed in the shop and on your inventories) is calculated like so:

DPS = (100 / base_speed) * base_damage

In our case thats:

DPS = (100 / 55) * 26.62 Or 48.4 DPS, just like the game tells us.

With no attack speed or other relics, the “speed” and “damage” attributes are the same as the base values.

Now, with attack speed relics added:

“weapon”: {
“name”: “Blood Stone Staff”,
“attributes”: {
“speed”: 30.555555555556,
“damage”: “26.62”,
“base_speed”: “55”,
“base_damage”: “26.62”
}
},

So with the math we did before:

DPS = (100 / 30.555555555556) * 26.62 Or 87.12 DPS, this is our hidden DPS (aka our Real DPS).

The relics added totaled +80% attack speed, which, waddya know it, 87.12 DPS is 80% larger than 48.4.

Have fun kids.

Two things: 1. 87.12 is NOT 80% larger then 48.4. (you are looking at 26.62). 2. the answer to this question is simple. Go with higher DPS always. Then highest speed if it is the same dps. Otherwise stick with best dps ALWAYS.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by jstaylor:
Originally posted by willy123096:

matter so little? oh my gosh you don’t know what armor+ dodge can do right? 500 Crit can become 0 with dodge and with max armor it can become 250 damage and you call this little? I just can’t believe you, sorry.

First of all, i could only understand half of what you wrote. Secondly, instead of doing all these theories how about you ACTUALLY test it.
sample test: fight someone close to you in skill (meaning you don’t win by very much hp). fight 5 times with a slow weapon, then fight 5 times with a fast weapon (same or very close dps). I guarantee you won’t see much of a difference.

Well, sir. I have a few points to point out too.
1) I don’t see you “ACTUALLY” (<- not my raging; i’m emphasizing his anger) testing it either. Screenshots?
2)I’m a bit bad at grammar but what i mean is that armor and dodge can do quite a lot. I don’t know what max dodge is (since i apparantly don’t read enough threads) but i heard the max armor is 50%. So if you think about it, since enemies can’t crit every strike, whenever he crits, you have a good chance of dodging it and even if you don’t you can lower the damage by a bit. If you have no armor at all, what’s health gonna do if they crit you like 500 every other hit and you can’t make it go down? The max health I’ve seen on a ninja so far is around 3000-4000. So you won’t survive as much hits logically.
3) Testing it won’t be effective in the end anyways. Why? Because of all these chances. Crit and dodge are all chances. If either side of the team have a bit of these, it will be a factor that have to factor in because it’s random. If you are lucky you can have a round where you dodge every strike. If you are not lucky you can have a round where you get hit critically every strike and not get a single dodge in. It’s all about luck; therefore, testing it is not a choice here.

 
Flag Post

ok idiots let me explain to u dps is wat matters u see a golden maul has 15.5 dps but it does 50 – 150 dmg dps is the dmg u do per second i think. so the higher dps weapons the stronger u are try this get the same dps weapons one fast one slow test it out its gonna be like the same thing.

 
Flag Post

Two things: 1. 87.12 is NOT 80% larger then 48.4. (you are looking at 26.62). 2. the answer to this question is simple. Go with higher DPS always. Then highest speed if it is the same dps. Otherwise stick with best dps ALWAYS.

herp, 48.4 * 1.8 = 87.12 derp

eg:
100% more = double (2x)
80% more = the same (100% + 80%)
meaning 80% LARGER is x1.8

 
Flag Post

You didn’t prove anything
Damage
Yes, that’s what Damage per seconds means. If you have the same multiplier on the same percentage of hits with weapons, with the weapons of same dps you still have the same dps.
Dodge rate and accuracy
On the fastest weapon you get smaller chance chance to miss every of your crit, but the probability of not missing a crit is lowered in the same way.
On the slower weapon if you don’t miss your crit you have a hight chance of doing more damage then the faster weapon since it probably missed at least one crit
In they are the same, but the point of having hight crit is to make the result different in the end, and the fast weapon is more regular for that
Armor
Not likely to hapen. And are you sure there is a minimum, in some games you just get zero

 
Flag Post

What WarShadow670 doesnt realize is that DPS is damage per second not strike. Having higher speed just means more hits with less damage within that same second. Example: 50 dps weapon slow gets (2) 25 HP hits, 50 dps weapon fastest gets (5) 10 HP hits. Fast speed only makes a difference when the ninja is about to die. With white belts, faster is more important, cuz they can get killed in 1 blow and you want them to get some damage before they die. a ninja level 60 with the 50 dps slow weapon might get 50 strikes @ 25 HP (1250HP damage), but if it was faster they might get 127 strikes at 10 HP (1270HP damage). get it?

 
Flag Post

in the the level 60 example i forgot to add that he can get that damage “before he dies”

 
Flag Post

SPEED IS BETTER THAN SLOW

 
Flag Post

I try not to argue over this topic, because i think it is an opinion(sorta :/) anyways, white ninjas need speed over power and higher level ninjas need dps over power. That is what i go by…

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by 123000134:

I assume relic that boost attack speed give higher boost to faster weapons

dont make this more complicated than it already is