Some cards need a nerf.

Local imbalances are not a problem in any given competitive game. It is only when the imbalance is so compelling that every player in high-end play uses only a handful of decks that it is said there is a global imbalance, and that sort of imbalance is detrimental to the game.

There are only a few cards which are causing the imbalance.

Reverse Time/Rewind
Deflagration/Explosion
Steal/Improved Steal
Earthquake/Quicksand
Shard of Focus

The reason I argue these cards are imbalanced is the quanta cost versus the strategic benefit. Whereas other spells have a quanta cost in line with the benefit of using them in a deck, each one of these is either multiplicative or even exponentially more valuable than the quanta cost.

The cost of using a card can really only be calculated as a sum of the quanta cost and the alternative cards which can fit the role. For instance, Rewind is a 1 quanta cost spell which does what no other spell can do: It returns a creature to the owner’s deck. In effect, this doubles the cost of any given creature for that creature’s owner.

Consider that this spell costs 3 quanta per use from Eternity. I personally use Eternity in my deck and find 3 Time quanta agreeable cost for use of the spell, as it still provides a tremendous advantage.

The benefit of a card is a bit harder to calculate than the cost, but I would consider uniqueness, return per quanta, and mechanical advantage to be roughly equal in terms of gain. Going back to Rewind, we have all three in spades:

Rewind is unique of all spells. It is the only spell which does as it does. Eternity is the only permanent which can replicate the effect, but does so at triple the cost.

The return per quanta for Rewind is immense. The highest-quanta-cost non-immortal creature or the functionally essential low-cost creature are both vulnerable and are both essential to the functioning of most decks. Rewind gives an instant, powerful advantage to any player in possession of it.

Mechanical advantage. Rewind alters the mechanics of the game in such a way as to prevent decking out. When present by means of Eternity, this spell provides a unique and counter-intuitive defensive use of the spell – it changes the way the game is played entirely!

So we can see that there are huge benefits to packing at least one Rewind in any non-rush that generates Time Quanta (i.e., a rainbow variant.) Decks which generate large amounts of time quanta are better served by eternity, so as to have infinite uses of the spell.

Now replace “Rewind” with any of the other cards listed and you’ll see a pattern. These five cards return far, far more than the cost indicates they should.

I think the spells can be better balanced by increasing the cost of each by one quanta. They would retain their use and still have the desired effects, but would be less abused than they are now.

As for Shard of Focus, it is essentially 3 deflags and a black hole for the price of 2 deflags. If the Shard were to cost 12 colorless quanta or 6 element-specific quanta, the relative power would be brought in line with other forms of PC. As it stands, a rainbow arena deck with 3 Shards of Focus can completely shut down absolutely any other deck, even pillarless types which rely on other means of generating quanta. The shard does not require a permanent to destroy in order to turn into a black hole, only that it can use the power.

Reverse time has been complained about a lot , but compare it to lightning. Neither is really overpowered.
Deflag was already nerfed, no reason to destroy its use outside of mono fire.
Steal is more of less balanced for its cost.
Earthquake is only really effective early game, and to consistently draw them, you need to take up four slots in your deck.
Shard of focus i will have to agree on though.

3 cards you listed above already has gotten a Nerf and it’s Deflagration/Explosion +
Steal/Improved Steal + Shard of Focus. None of the cards you listed needs a nerf other then SoF which I agree with the points made.

I completely agree with the reverse time because it is so annoying when my blessed 17/17 vampire gets sent back into my deck, which makes all those blessed cards i used and the actual cost for the vampire wasted.

Originally posted by ThanatosII:

I completely agree with the reverse time because it is so annoying when my blessed 17/17 vampire gets sent back into my deck, which makes all those blessed cards i used and the actual cost for the vampire wasted.

Antimatter is worse. And what other counters are there to super buffs? I count two, maybe a couple more i’m missing. Thats not many.

Reverse time can hurt, but many decks can shake off its effects. It is potentially disadvantaged compared to other CC because it is the only one that doesn’t kill, however, due to the fact that your opponent loses a drawing turn, and that arena decks (gotp/nightmare especially) can pack 12 of these, I wouldn’t mind a nerf, increasing the cost to 3→2.

I would argue that discord is far worse of a problem, however. 3 quantums and you win against any mono/duo deck. Maybe changing the cost to 4 quantums would balance it by delaying SNovabows by one more turn.

Shard of Focus certainly needs a nerf, totally agree. A colored equivalent of this card would cost 2 quantums (IMO colorless quantums are worth 1/3 the value of regular quantums), so 3 deflagrations for that cost is outrageous. 12 colorless as stated would be a 4 quantum equivalent, which seems more reasonable to me.

With a decent mono-deck, discord will slow you down 2-3 turns at most, but by then you’ll have enough junk quanta that you don’t have to worry about it after that. And, for OP, just wondering…if you think all these cards are so OP, make a deck using them that an consistently win in pvp 2…it isn’t as easy as it sounds, precisely because these really aren’t that OP. SoFo maybe, but not the others.

Still can’t believe Zanz even implemented SoFo in that form..

Originally posted by Kokonoe_Rin:

Consider that this spell costs 3 quanta per use from Eternity. I personally use Eternity in my deck and find 3 Time quanta agreeable cost for use of the spell, as it still provides a tremendous advantage.

[…]

Mechanical advantage. Rewind alters the mechanics of the game in such a way as to prevent decking out. When present by means of Eternity, this spell provides a unique and counter-intuitive defensive use of the spell – it changes the way the game is played entirely!

[…]

If I understand you correctly, you consider the 3 time quanta cost on eternity ballanced and complain against the 1 cost on the spell version. However, the spell version does NOT prevent deck out. It can be used to delay decking out by one turn, and then it’s gone. You could have the same effect by adding one more card to your deck and that card gives you further advantages.

So let me focus on the Rewind Time (RT) card (spell verion) in the following. It’s biggest disadvantage is that it has a one time use (it’s gone after play) , while the oppontent can replay his time-reversed card (that card isn’t gone). It’s even worse, if the oponent has hourglasses/sundails and can draw additional cards.

It’s optimal use is on cards that have received buffs (Voodoo Dolls with Basilisk Blood and Gravity Pull for ex.), or on expansive cards, while the oponent has difficulty to obtain the quanta again (so it’s better against (S)Nova decks than against Mono/Duo decks, which is fine by me).

Actually, I consider reverse time only worth including in my deck, if I have other cards that have synergies with it. Examples are Earthquake and other quantum denial or Nightmare + Ghost of the Past to deny drawing next turn. If I don’t have such synergies in my deck, RT is situational and might turn out to be useless. From that point of view I think a low quantum cost is justified

So, I guess you basically have a problem of RTs strength in decks, where it has it’s highest synergies. The Problem is not that RT is too powerful, but you think that some decks that include RT are too powerful. But that is a much more complex topic.

Similar arguments hold for Explosion: If you destroy an opponents permanent, you trade one card (your explosion) versus one card (his permanent). If it had a higher quantum cost than that permanent, that would be considered a bad deal (in most cases). And if you don’t have targets (only pillar’s/towers or immaterial permanents), it is a wasted card sitting in your hand. The cost has just been nerfed a bit, and I would have considered it to be balanced even before. It’s common usage is/was basically due to the very limited arsenal of permanent control.

Steal: Was already nerfed some time ago, but since it actually gives you the permanent in addition to the explosion effect, maybe a one higher cost would be good. But I’m not sure.

Earthquake: See above, it might fizzle against Nova/Supernova, Immolation or lots of quantum generating creatures. If its cost is too high, it looses its purpose of providing you with a quantum advantage.

Shard of Focus: I guess you are right here, haven’t played enough with or against it, though.

Steal: Was already nerfed some time ago, but since it actually gives you the permanent in addition to the explosion effect, maybe a one higher cost would be good. But I’m not sure.

I don’t think Steal needs another cost bump as before it was 3 Darkness quantum and now it’s 4 Darkness quantum. Remember many Permanents you steal wouldn’t be useful for yourself (Plus you may already have a better shield/weapon leading to a limited pool of perms. you would steal) but to prevent the opponent from using it but even then he/she will be running duplicates to get better draws of that permanent. Also many weapons suits the opponent deck because they have the quantum to use its ability.

Originally posted by DrFaustus:
[…]

Shard of Focus: I guess you are right here, haven’t played enough with or against it, though.

SoF actually has a better use. you can use it also for a constant grav pull target. betcha never considered that, eh? all in all, SoF seems like it may be a utility card rather than a pc/qc card.

You can also combo SoF with Rage Potion/Rage Elixir/Red Nymph after it destroys its first permanent . :D

SoFo is OP, there is almost no real way to deal with nova+double SoFo on first turn(Upped).

Either kill it on the first turn or before it starts gaining a large amount of HP or try to delay it by using reverse time and etc.

Originally posted by qazzaq123:

Either kill it on the first turn or before it starts gaining a large amount of HP or try to delay it by using reverse time and etc.

I play competitive PvP and my most used deck is based on a lot of CC just to kill those, but this card is still OP as hell.

If you get a bad draw and can’t pull your CC then the SoF beast shall be staying. :P

Consider this in the Reverse Time v Eternity debate:

Eternity > Flying Weapon > SoR > Quintessence/Anubis: 18 Mixed Quanta
- Will return any number of cards to deck (2 first turn, 1 every consequent turn)
- 4 card slots
- Also deals 9/4 damage per turn
- Costs nothing to use ability, can use it twice first turn after SoR
- Grants 1/2 immortal creatures
- Contributes to cards that use creature presence to operate (Chimera, Empathic)
- Remains on the field as a CC threat
- Can halt enemy progress entirely

Reverse Time: 2/1 Quanta
- Returns one card to the deck
- Takes one card slot
- Does 0 damage per turn

Peace, you should compare 4 card combos to other 4 card combo.

Your immortal free eternity may seem powerful, but comparing to:
2 fractals, pest, vampire
fractal, rol, hope
pharaoh, 3 shards of readiness
etc.

I am not impressed ;)

Decks like the ones Zeru commented on are not affected by reverse time because the decks has the ability to spam creatures. :D (Wink wink USEM Modded)

Pillars are free and generate quanta every turn, meaning their benefit is infinitely greater than their cost. That calls for a nerf!

Originally posted by NK12:

hurr durr hurr hurr a durr derp hurr a hurrrrrr

Originally posted by NK12:

Pillars are free and generate quanta every turn, meaning their benefit is infinitely greater than their cost. That calls for a nerf!

This is a joke right? Pillars doesn’t generate quanta on the turn it’s played unlike Towers and these are the sources which you play your cards.

I guess the sarcastic remark about pillars intended to point out that Konokoe Rin’s main argument ("The reason I argue these cards are imbalanced is the quanta cost versus the strategic benefit. ") was weak (or invalid).

Indeed there are a few other cards (spells like Holy Flash, creatures like photon/RoL, damselfly, gemfinder) with 0 quanta cost, but that doesn’t make them overpowered because they are significantly less potent than other (similar) cards with positive quanta costs (e.g. Heal is not free, but heals more than Holy Flash).

A part of the total cost people often forget about is the card slot these cheap spells (like Reverse Time or Rewind) take. This might be just as important as the quanta cost. By including/drawing these cheap spells and casting them you forgo the opportunity to include/cast something that has a stronger impact on the encounter (like an immaterial Elite Phase Dragon for 10 damage/turn that you cannot rewind and will have some difficulty to stop/counter).

Indeed drawing power is an expensive “good”, to increase it you need to invest in moderately expensive permanents/creatures [golden nymph/hourglass] and some additional (1-2) quanta every turn — so it’s totally justified that cards that grant you “reusable” spells are almost always more expensive than the respective spell cards. (e.g. ‘“rewind” on eternity vs. rewind the spell card’; is similar to ‘luciferin skill on a light nymph’ vs. ‘luciferin spell card’)

I guess these spells might be “mildly” overpowered in higher-level arena decks or FG decks that can spam them because of the 2x drawing power they get from “dexterity” (→ that makes drawing power less of a scarce resource), but this is not a balance issue (balance is usually interpreted in a pvp-context where you normally draw 1 card/turn), and might even be necessary to offset the “stupidity” of the AI and make these “hard” encounters genuinely challenging.

Originally posted by NK12:

Pillars are free and generate quanta every turn, meaning their benefit is infinitely greater than their cost. That calls for a nerf!

And how do you buy pillars without quanta?

Originally posted by SkyGecko:

Originally posted by NK12:

Pillars are free and generate quanta every turn, meaning their benefit is infinitely greater than their cost. That calls for a nerf!

And how do you buy pillars without quanta?

There are people out there that could not see NK12’s sarcasm? And here I was thinking I was socially clueless.