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Problem with Knights page 2

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Originally posted by gruntarswe:

Epic wall of text topic is always fun ^^

haha i still havn’t read either of his posts, any TL;DR versions out there?

 
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another advice for knights feeling shortchanged in HP packs… if you are tanking and your dmg isn’t very impt, start each fight with shield. shield = free 20% hp. most mobs can’t poke thru a decent knight’s shield.

as for WB… if your rotation keeps you on 80+ rage each round, you will be able to delphic each round. that would mean decent double-hitting knights would probably outscore mages in WB. (mages pretty much can’t build rage in WB unless they use only bolt.) not so easy to outscore a similar-BR archer (or even lower-BR archers), but if you double-hit consistently and ensure your PATK gems / astrals / guild skills are upgraded, you can score well in WB.

FWIW, i disagree that knights have “poor” dmg. have you gotten lv5 slasher and lv5 ult slash? also, knights are the only ones that can reach delphic in normal pvp fights. i also disagree that knight’s AOE needs to be cheaper rage cost… as it is, knights only need 2 turns to reach 45 rage with either pvp or pve set. knights are designed to hit mainly the front row; yet they can now use Holy Seal to insta-hit opponent hero (AND still gain 10 rage). tbh, past lv50 knights have a clear advantage… especially with good block/hp.

the main problem with knights is still the fact that they are not “indispensable” in MPD. granted, it may make life easier to have a tanky knight shooting delphic for some MPD bosses, but most of the time you can make do with a tanky archer, who brings deep freeze and scattershot (both are rather indispensable skills). perhaps the higher MPDs would be so tough that you NEED a tanky knight to win them?

 
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Tank help alot in NM MPD. Cuz Scatter/Deep Freeze not work here and bosses have heavy damage + higher crit chance.

 
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tl;dr all, but id like to point one thing out: if you think that knight need a lot of hp pots, then you are doingit wrong. Im a lvl 49 knight, 23k br , spent only money on vip/wings, and never bought hp pots. I, at this moment have around 700k remaining hp in used pots, and around 2,7 mil in potions sitting in my guild bank.

 
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Originally posted by zibko:

tl;dr all, but id like to point one thing out: if you think that knight need a lot of hp pots, then you are doingit wrong. Im a lvl 49 knight, 23k br , spent only money on vip/wings, and never bought hp pots. I, at this moment have around 700k remaining hp in used pots, and around 2,7 mil in potions sitting in my guild bank.

When you tank the harder MPDs, you’ll understand.

 
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Yeah Garden final boss ist two steps up compared to Badlands.

 
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I can say as a heavy casher mage vs knights that are built for block/hp/patk/mdef can give me a run very easily for all the money. Generally once the troop knight gets above 63 or so I cant kill them in the first AoE if the mdef has been leveled via academy. Dealing with a knight is almost always going to 50% damage at which point the knights delphics do insane amount of damage. Not to mention, the proper use of intercept will stop me from using thunderer which is absolutely necessary to finish off the burst vs high patk at 50% much less 100% in high level arena its almost instant dead. You can check my stats server 2—Hopeful. Knights are fine late game enough said.

 
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GoD, mobs do bleed, aoe
Terraton eye mobs, stun, matk/patk

 
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Lvl 60 knight here, no problem with knights except in WB, we are underpowered in WB, which means we fall behind in Daru and Gold for guild skills unless we spend way more than other classes to keep up. WB does matter to the rest of the game, but is not a game ender. Still, for balance, change WB rewards so all three classes have same potential for gold and daru rewards.

 
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pretty much what skywatcher said

 
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Since upping Knight damage so that they would be closer to Mages would cause balancing issues in PvP, the easiest way to close the world boss cash/daru gap a bit would be increasing the damage to gold/daru ratio from currently 20% to 25% or so.

 
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Originally posted by Atombender:

Since upping Knight damage so that they would be closer to Mages would cause balancing issues in PvP, the easiest way to close the world boss cash/daru gap a bit would be increasing the damage to gold/daru ratio from currently 20% to 25% or so.


That doesn’t decrease the comparative gap. It just means everyone makes less overall. Archers would still dominate, and get more than everyone else.

A much simpler way to even out the difference between classes would be to give every WB “-X% reduced chance of receiving crits,” same as the Guardian Angel astral by whatever % the average archer (huge cashers will always dominate anyway) is leading the other two classes by. This way it evens the comparative score, which is what people complain about. Not saying to make the WB impossible to crit, but if the average archer is leading the average mage/knight by 20%, they could make it 20% harder to crit the WB, and so on.

Am I suggesting they do this? Eh, not really. But that’d probably be the only way to make world boss damage more even without impacting PvP/PvE/every other event.

(In before “but huge cash mages dominate in my server!” If they paid $3000 they damn well should. :P)

 
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That doesn’t decrease the comparative gap. It just means everyone makes less overall.

Em, no? Archers and Mages would still earn the same money and Knights would earn 25% more.

 
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He probably meant just for Knights. :)

There’s a few ways to help balance the playing field.

  • Gold/daru ratio or damage for knights increased.
  • Cap instance damage per event.
  • Allow ulti or shadow to be more easily comboable.
  • Adjust each world boss to be “weak” to a certain class.
  • Top rewards (250k,200k,150k) to be distributed by class.

On R2 forums, I keep seeing how archers complain about how OP knights are. I don’t understand this since mages are our bane… and archers are a mage’s bane. If every class keeps its intended other in check, why the disparity in world boss earnings? Why are the top three almost always given to a certain class or two – all things being relatively equal?

 
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Adjust each world boss to be “weak” to a certain class.

A lot of players can only attend Redoga Drake due to school/work commitment. Unless you mean cycling through WB’s each day or week but then you’d roughly get the same outcome.

Top player per class out of the Top 3.

 
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Originally posted by Atombender:

Adjust each world boss to be “weak” to a certain class.

A lot of players can only attend Redoga Drake due to school/work commitment. Unless you mean cycling through WB’s each day or week but then you’d roughly get the same outcome.

Top player per class out of the Top 3.

But this would be far more fair than how it is set up now. Under the “weak” method, you could make it random or by a set schedule. Be imaginative. Top player by class is probably how it should be. Though I love Dink and Smiddy to death, having a different class be represented on a world boss would be at least a little more exciting to see.

Before anyone states, “you’re being self-serving, KE – you’re close to the top knight,” think again. JAYMZ, Qein and san have beaten me easily before. Now there would actually be a reward for winning, placing or showing. :) As it stands now, there’s no true advantage for a knight ‘winning’ at a world boss – as the victory is hollow.

 
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Originally posted by Atombender:

That doesn’t decrease the comparative gap. It just means everyone makes less overall.

Em, no? Archers and Mages would still earn the same money and Knights would earn 25% more.


Ah I see, I misread. I thought you meant for all classes. :P

Still, I don’t think it’d be fair to give only Knights a boost like that, though. If you look at the mages who make the top 10 on WB lists (halc, gruntar, etc on S1 at least), almost all of them are big cashers. But the average mage seems to struggle as much as Knights do, because their big hits are either huge rage drainers or AoE. It’s not unusual to see 1 or 2 mages in the top 3, then everyone 4-10 is an archer, many of whom are not at all near the top 10-20 players. ):

 
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Originally posted by atreylune:
That doesn’t decrease the comparative gap. It just means everyone makes less overall. Archers would still dominate, and get more than everyone else.

A much simpler way to even out the difference between classes would be to give every WB “-X% reduced chance of receiving crits,” same as the Guardian Angel astral by whatever % the average archer (huge cashers will always dominate anyway) is leading the other two classes by. This way it evens the comparative score, which is what people complain about. Not saying to make the WB impossible to crit, but if the average archer is leading the average mage/knight by 20%, they could make it 20% harder to crit the WB, and so on.

Am I suggesting they do this? Eh, not really. But that’d probably be the only way to make world boss damage more even without impacting PvP/PvE/every other event.

(In before “but huge cash mages dominate in my server!” If they paid $3000 they damn well should. :P)

That’s one of the dumbest idea’s I’ve heard. Sure Archer’s get an advantage in the WB, but you are suggesting putting the higher archers on an even footing, and completely SCREWING archers that don’t have those top end stats. What happens when that number gets to 30%, 40%? Will you strip the crit percentage enough that you are getting more value with will destroyer than we would with sniper’s edge+determination? You might not realize it, but archers have to rely on those crits to have enough rage. If it was knights, would we start stripping extra rage per hit? The normal rage generation of an archer in pvp gear non delphic rounds can be anywhere from 25 to 65 and on delphic rounds from – 60 to – 20 depending on crits. If you make it so archers lose crit related to the top archer, it could get to the point where low level archers don’t even get 2 crits with multishot which is normally 120% crit chance base. Now take your idea back to the drawing board.

 
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Originally posted by Silverfire:

That’s one of the dumbest idea’s I’ve heard. Sure Archer’s get an advantage in the WB, but you are suggesting putting the higher archers on an even footing, and completely SCREWING archers that don’t have those top end stats. What happens when that number gets to 30%, 40%? Will you strip the crit percentage enough that you are getting more value with will destroyer than we would with sniper’s edge+determination? You might not realize it, but archers have to rely on those crits to have enough rage. If it was knights, would we start stripping extra rage per hit? The normal rage generation of an archer in pvp gear non delphic rounds can be anywhere from 25 to 65 and on delphic rounds from – 60 to – 20 depending on crits. If you make it so archers lose crit related to the top archer, it could get to the point where low level archers don’t even get 2 crits with multishot which is normally 120% crit chance base. Now take your idea back to the drawing board.


Calm down. Did you miss the part where I said I’m not suggesting they do this? Because I made sure to have that in there. You even quoted it! :P

What I did say was that that’s the only way I could think of to make only archer WB gains drop while leaving the rest (PvP, PvE, etc) alone, as archers are clearly the class that are most advantaged in WBs. Every other solution favors Knights too much while leaving Mages in the dust, makes everything hinge on RL schedule/event timings and which you can get to, et cetera.

The only way the number would get to something insane like -40% anyway, is if the average archer was already making 40% more than the average mage or knight of comparative BR, which hopefully isn’t true. Realistically it’s probably like 5%. :)

(No idea where “lose crit in relation to the top archer” came from, that was nowhere in the post.)

 
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Originally posted by atreylune:

Every other solution favors Knights too much while leaving Mages in the dust, makes everything hinge on RL schedule/event timings and which you can get to, et cetera.

I’m not picking on you here, but can you explain the quoted part? Did you mean this in relation to my bulleted suggestions?

 
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Originally posted by KnowingEyes:
Originally posted by atreylune:

Every other solution favors Knights too much while leaving Mages in the dust, makes everything hinge on RL schedule/event timings and which you can get to, et cetera.

I’m not picking on you here, but can you explain the quoted part? Did you mean this in relation to my bulleted suggestions?


Not yours in particular, just ideas I’ve seen thrown around before. For example, “Knights do no dmg, buff Knight PATK/buff Knights only in some way” is kind of unbalancing all around (and screws mages), and I remember other people suggesting things like “segment the WB into separate level tiers” – except in terms of damage, archers would likely still lead every separate tier even so.

Out of yours… the randomly weak to a certain class really does make it difficult for people who can’t make all three WBs due to work/class/etc. Huge cashers would raise a storm about damage caps, if they put them there (and would you get 4-5 people tied for 1st then? S1 has a LOT of people hitting 1%+). Ulti/shadow being faster would hurt everyone else in PvP; top rewards for each class only benefits the top 3 knights/mages, and every other knight/mage below the top 3 is stuck right where they were before.

Seriously though, I’m not really arguing for any particular change, just… questioning the general approach of the solution, I suppose? What everyone seems to agree is that “archers as a class lead WB damage,” yet most of the solutions seem to be about “making Knights better” or “stop the cashers/reward more of them” instead of “dropping archer WB damage a bit to make them more even with the other two classes.”

 
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Originally posted by atreylune:

Not yours in particular, just ideas I’ve seen thrown around before. For example, “Knights do no dmg, buff Knight PATK/buff Knights only in some way” is kind of unbalancing all around (and screws mages), and I remember other people suggesting things like “segment the WB into separate level tiers” – except in terms of damage, archers would likely still lead every separate tier even so.

As a fellow knight though, don’t you believe something is amiss when it comes to this kind of event? R2 cannot do anything about it (they can recommend) so it’s already a super long shot. I’ll still bish about it however. :P

Originally posted by atreylune:

Out of yours… the randomly weak to a certain class really does make it difficult for people who can’t make all three WBs due to work/class/etc.

We’re looking to make the bosses approachable by class with this idea. If a player cannot attend a world boss due to real life issues, how is this everyone else’s issue? We can expand this idea to make bosses weak by class not only randomly but also a distinct chance for said boss to be not weak by class at all. Mix and match; flavor it according to taste. This idea may be a tad radical but at least it would allow classes to shine at world boss instead of perpetually being second… or a very distant third. We could also see some interesting races between players in the top ten.

Originally posted by atreylune:

Huge cashers would raise a storm about damage caps, if they put them there (and would you get 4-5 people tied for 1st then? S1 has a LOT of people hitting 1%+).

First place would go to the player that hits cap first and so on. This way there still is a reward for first through third as well as 1% (still favors the archer) – but, depending on cap, the disparity between classes – for the bulk of the gold and daru – is most certainly reduced, all aspects considered (BR/modified BR). Huge cashers will already spend – and I gather there are cashers out there that do not revive or Balen boost simply because the piece of the pie is gobbled by archers – so, why not give other players by class who want to see a better return on investment (Warrior’s prize) a chance to Balen/revive/instant? Doing so now yields less overall.

Originally posted by atreylune:

Ulti/shadow being faster would hurt everyone else in PvP

If you play around with crypt, you’ll notice that you can oddly combo ultislash with slash. From what I can deduce, this cannot be done anywhere else in the game. In this vein, something like this (ultislash, shadow thrasher) could be set up for the world boss event – but only for this event. By this means, the gap can theoretically be lessened.

Originally posted by atreylune:

top rewards for each class only benefits the top 3 knights/mages, and every other knight/mage below the top 3 is stuck right where they were before.

This idea has been approached by many as it seemingly is the most fair. The intrinsic problem is that class versus class will favor the archer in this circumstance, then the mage and finally the knight. With this segregation, all knights and mages have the opportunity to reach first by class (provided if they cash). As it stands, knights have virtually nil chance to reach the summit. Unless key archers go missing, mages do not have a reasonable shot at win/place/show’ing either. Looking at it another way, the gold and daru bonus are assuredly earmarked for the archer. Why? Insofar as ‘everyone is stuck where he or she was at before’, this idea can be combined with any of the above.

Originally posted by atreylune:

Seriously though, I’m not really arguing for any particular change, just… questioning the general approach of the solution, I suppose? What everyone seems to agree is that “archers as a class lead WB damage,” yet most of the solutions seem to be about “making Knights better” or “stop the cashers/reward more of them” instead of “dropping archer WB damage a bit to make them more even with the other two classes.”

Reducing archer damage will undoubtedly bring the outcry from the archers. Granted, boosting the other classes may do the same but in my travels, ‘nerfing’ a class tends to bring the hate far more than boosting other classes. For example, most archers already have seen a reduction in criticals against the/any/all world boss(es)… but they still dominate due to the class being a damage dealer with very powerful attacks. Mages can do the same, though are at a slight disadvantage due to the event including a single target. Knights… well… {goes silent}. Killing criticals even more impacts their gold and daru directly. What I propose is not to do that – so they are overtly spared the ‘hammer’.

 
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With the top 3 of each class thing, I just feel like everyone else but the top 3 get shafted – it’s not a fix for the overall class problem, just for the top 3. KE, san, jaymz, quint, I could probably get in there if I chose to revive (generally I get 15~20 with no balens spent, with revives I’ve hit… 4? 5? been a while) – but even so, Knights as a class don’t get helped, just us. The level 54-, the whole rest of our class, are still being outdamaged like crazy, nothing in it for them. ):

Hmmm… instead of instancing the WB by level / doing top 3 of each class, what about going the whole way and instancing WBs by class? So knights only compete against knights, archers against archers, mages against mages, and so on, and each WB has a set amount of HP. The knight WB would be the slowest to fall by far, but the comparative rewards would be greater for all of us – and in terms of % the archer one wouldn’t suffer too badly – it’d fall fastest, but it’d be the same total amount of damage done and gold/daru dispensed.

The low end archers would have to compete with Smiddy/Dink/Pernilla/et al, but – well, technically they currently have to compete with them and Gruntar/Halc/Chomo/et al and KE/san/et al already anyway and the comparative gains would probably be similar…

(Wrong account, deleted to avoid confusion. :P)

 
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Easiest way is to add in 20 percent of damage taken to go with damage dealt. Then the Knights get more for HP than archers, and the mages just do one of those big heals right before last round and they get a big boost, and the archers will be getting equal gold and daru to the rest of us. Problem solved with damn near no coding required.

 
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Originally posted by Skywatcher:

Easiest way is to add in 20 percent of damage taken to go with damage dealt. Then the Knights get more for HP than archers, and the mages just do one of those big heals right before last round and they get a big boost, and the archers will be getting equal gold and daru to the rest of us. Problem solved with damn near no coding required.


I don’t think the numbers for that don’t work out too well. At max it’ll give Knights maybe 10k more damage than archers (with their max HP) which translates to what, 2k more a round? It also screws mages since A) they can use their big heal but it doesn’t matter since their max HP is lower and the WB ulti kills them in one hit B) not all mages spec for Blessed Light, especially not in World Boss since it’s completely out of their dps tree. Also do you count in troop HP? (if so, that would negate the HP differences even more)