Big Numbers Vs. Target All

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Lately there has been a big deviation towards “Target All” effects but single target effects are getting left in the dust. Single target effects barely have values higher than they were in Standard Pack yet everyone and their mother gets an upgraded version with protect all or heal all or strike all. Take Flashpoint for example:

Now this is just a small sample, seriously, almost all flashpoint rares are target all effects. Pretty much every good card in flashpoint or from recent raids has target all type effect. The reason isn’t that these effects are inherently better, we just don’t have any potent heal 6 cards, strike 6, protect 6 effects out there. Lets compare to same meh cards from flashpoint:

Again this applies to promos and recent raid cards. This is essentially holding back decks like quick-strike from the old days. These cards are marginally better than standard pack cards because they have such bad single target skills.

Compare:

This for example, I imagine a lot would suggest to make Obsidian mirror better give it Protect all or Augment all. This is unnecessary. Why can’t it have Protect 4 and augment 2? It doesn’t seem unreasonable considering Necro Nest can easily give out +10 rally across the field in a single turn. Augment only has the advantage that is can boost up target all effects, so it’s slightly less behind the times.

Remember this bad boy?

Missile Silo reigned in the days when 4wait cards had 8HP and 2 wait cards have 5 HP. These days we have 4wait cards with 12HP+ plus impressive defensive skills. Compare Aegis to Aegis V2

Masterwork aegis is an absolute beast compared to Aegis, but we don’t have a modern equivalent of Missile Silo. Instead we have target all effects like Cannon Wall. But would be 4wait structure with 8strike or 8Heal be OP in the current meta? Probably not. Probably not even good considering summon spam soaks up effects like this.

Tiatlapred type decks suck these days because arguably we don’t have anything better than Tiamat. Tiamat is still one of the best and it’s not upgraded or updated since the first pack! That’s madness! It ruled in the days where 2wait cards had 5HP, but now we have things like Gauntlet and Grimclaw, both with over 10HP total. Compared to Molecule converter with a measly 2 attack it can’t even get over gauntlets armour. WTF is that? Don’t get me started on Delphan. Would Delphan even be overpowered even if it was pushed to the extreme and had 4 strike or 4 protect and 3 attack? It’s questionable. But something like 2 attack, 3 strike, protect 2 seems like a compromise to start off with.

Some food for thought.

 
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Are you kidding me? Demonic Power is a meh card??

 
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Originally posted by whitegluejacky:

Are you kidding me? Demonic Power is a meh card??

Enhancement vial says yes. It’s situationally good only for a certain type of deck. Enhancement vial is excellent for a lot of things.

 
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All means controlled evil. Strike X means more random shit. We dont need more random shit here.

 
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Originally posted by ratapwnz:

All means controlled evil. Strike X means more random shit. We dont need more random shit here.

Not necessarily. Especially quick strike decks are about getting control early, these not much random in them. When you’ve got 8+ things on the field thats when strike 7 becomes too random. Stuff like heal 6 is definetly not random and IMO a better path than giving everything heal all 2 to survive.

 
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@Idiral
Fusion Silo, everything Missile Silo wanted to be but couldnt.

 
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I think the problem escalated with intro of summon. With the ability to get 2+ new cards per turn, single target effects were just not strong enough.

 
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Lets put it this way.

You believe that when value are raise high enough, single target will be better then/or at the very least as good as -ALL variant. But think about it. How high does it need to be?

If it ain’t high enough, everyone will just ignore it still. If it magically reach the threshold of the “meta”, great the campaign is a success. Everyone is using single target skills.

Or is it? Because what you get is a situation where single target skills are so OP that people are willing to forgo what is currently known to be OP. -ALL skills

 
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Originally posted by ohnonooh:

Lets put it this way.

You believe that when value are raise high enough, single target will be better then/or at the very least as good as -ALL variant. But think about it. How high does it need to be?

If it ain’t high enough, everyone will just ignore it still. If it magically reach the threshold of the “meta”, great the campaign is a success. Everyone is using single target skills.

Or is it? Because what you get is a situation where single target skills are so OP that people are willing to forgo what is currently known to be OP. -ALL skills

AKA powercreep :D

So solution is not to powercreep the all cards with even more powerful single target cards, but to change fundamental dynamics – introducing something specifically to counter summon? Changing how summon works? Weakening summon on play cards? I dunno man, this has been going on for so long that the mess is huge and is not easy to resolve :D

 
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Originally posted by Endox:
Originally posted by ohnonooh:

Lets put it this way.

You believe that when value are raise high enough, single target will be better then/or at the very least as good as -ALL variant. But think about it. How high does it need to be?

If it ain’t high enough, everyone will just ignore it still. If it magically reach the threshold of the “meta”, great the campaign is a success. Everyone is using single target skills.

Or is it? Because what you get is a situation where single target skills are so OP that people are willing to forgo what is currently known to be OP. -ALL skills

AKA powercreep :D

So solution is not to powercreep the all cards with even more powerful single target cards, but to change fundamental dynamics – introducing something specifically to counter summon? Changing how summon works? Weakening summon on play cards? I dunno man, this has been going on for so long that the mess is huge and is not easy to resolve :D

There is a solution to summon and spam deck. Though it is debatable again just how high the value need to be set so that players will actually find it useful over the generic augmented strike all cough odin cough.

http://www.kongregate.com/forums/65-tyrant/topics/359146-is-spam-deck-bad-why-do-so-many-ppl-hate-it?page=1#posts-7422937

The other alternative is increase target acquisition(but not ALL). ie Having missile silo strike 8 is OP, but having it strike 4 twice could be equally OP, but also slightly less. After all, summon merely generate more HP into the total deck pool, but it doesn’t directly increase the health an individual assault has.

As for monster like Maegis/ospry that somehow got ahead of others, that is another story for another day. Most likely Dev just got lazy and thus throw in the thick hp. You simply can’t go wrong with more health :D


Dev could also rework on death/on kill skill. Right now on death is only use when specially paired with regenerate and on kill is so laughable that only highly customized card like gorrus may turn it mainstream.

Change on death to trigger when ANY assault leave play. So the card with On Death skill need to be active and will run it’s on death skill each time ANY assault leave play(DEATH).

This will also open up better game play because right now everyone are afraid of bringing in fragile cards as they are deadweight. With on death change to trigger each time any card is dead, it also turn bringing in suicide card(3/1/1 hunter) as a viable strategy other then acting as a counter that benefit from enemy puny summon’s death.

 
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I think the only reason strike 8 with 4delay would be OP right now is because we don’t have great siege cards. Aside from that it’s pretty mediocre considering it’s slow and summons and protect can soak up the damage so easy. Strike all 2 is more OP in this meta

 
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Originally posted by Idiral:

I think the only reason strike 8 would be OP right now is because we don’t have great siege cards. Aside from that it’s pretty mediocre considering it’s slow and summons and protect can soak up the damage so easy. Strike all 2 is more OP in this meta

That was an example. But lets use some value as a reference to make across my point.

You feel strike all 2 is still > strike 8? Well there you have it. It will always be a case of either/or.

Hmmm strike 8 is not a value big enough to entice you to switch over from strike all 2 yet? Just imagine how scary that value has to hit before everyone start switching over.

So what is your personal threshold for single strike to be as good as strike all 2 so you consider switching over to single target strike?

 
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Originally posted by ohnonooh:
Originally posted by Idiral:

I think the only reason strike 8 would be OP right now is because we don’t have great siege cards. Aside from that it’s pretty mediocre considering it’s slow and summons and protect can soak up the damage so easy. Strike all 2 is more OP in this meta

That was an example. But lets use some value as a reference to make across my point.

You feel strike all 2 is still > strike 8? Well there you have it. It will always be a case of either/or.

Hmmm strike 8 is not a value big enough to entice you to switch over from strike all 2 yet? Just imagine how scary that value has to hit before everyone start switching over.

So what is your personal threshold for single strike to be as good as strike all 2 so you consider switching over to single target strike?

Considering CW isn’t just strike all 2. It’s also summon ratcatcher and it’s a solid wall I think strike 8 is reasonable. If CW had 8 strike is would be worth considering a switch, but if missile silo was upgrade to strike 8 it would just be OK. Likewise if Death from Above was strike 8 it wouldn’t see much play.

With Grimclaws it takes 4wait+ 6 turns to take out 3 summoned grimclaws vs. 4wait + 4turns.

Even worse it takes 4wait + 9 turns to take out 3 summoned gauntlets while cannon wall can do it in 4 + 6turns

It performs exponentially worse when you start calculating for things like warpway, usial, HoC, metalworks.

 
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Originally posted by ohnonooh:
Originally posted by Idiral:

I think the only reason strike 8 would be OP right now is because we don’t have great siege cards. Aside from that it’s pretty mediocre considering it’s slow and summons and protect can soak up the damage so easy. Strike all 2 is more OP in this meta

That was an example. But lets use some value as a reference to make across my point.

You feel strike all 2 is still > strike 8? Well there you have it. It will always be a case of either/or.

Hmmm strike 8 is not a value big enough to entice you to switch over from strike all 2 yet? Just imagine how scary that value has to hit before everyone start switching over.

So what is your personal threshold for single strike to be as good as strike all 2 so you consider switching over to single target strike?

strike 9

 
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Paragraphs:

1 – I partially agree, but I support your the main point.
2 & 3 – Yea, we havn’t got skills with such high values. The biggest thing I support is assault cards with strike 5+.
“Meh” cards from flashpoint – Demonic power – really? Overwatcher – good example of the best single target skill in game – siege, there’re many viable cards that has 2-3 siege on 1,2 cd which is very healthy for meta in my opinion.

Actually there’re not any good cards with strike that looks similar to those with siege. Chronos*/Tiamat are good example of strike cards with their cd/value proportion, but if we look at their other stats, they’re terrible. Nothing helps them to stay at battlefield, they’re meat for action cards like dfa* or summon on attacked/play/refresh/big hp cards.

I think best strike ratio is – 2 max strike/cooldown.

Relentless Slasher “could” be good single rally card, if not its augument and other stats. Why not simple rally 3 and other useful staff (like atk/hp polish / additional pierce etc.)? I think most of new cards are just poorly designed for some strange reason. Maybe devs are trying to slow down powercreep – becouse only thing I see is that they’re making cards stronger instead making them “more” useful.

4 (comparision of structures) – Good example, I quite like staffs in ur proposal, but i’m sure those things need testing against decks with low amount of cards 1st. It would be bad to have flying-strike “Svet-racles 2014”.

5 & 6, Silo – Standard vs flashpoint, not good comparision. We all know cost.
Would be structure with 8 strike 6 heal be op? I guess u meant 8 strike and 6 hps. Giving it heal may result in some bad trades/stalls.

7 – 1 turn drops.

I agree tiamat rules the skies of single target strike. Still, standard pack, low survivablity, not many cards to support it.
Molecule conventer – yea, this card is joke sadly.
Delphan – 4 strike, 3 protect. Would it be overpowered? Yes. Would it be useful in competetive? I don’t know. I’ve used omega l2 for some time tho, worked brilliant for 1 turn drop with 2 siege/2strike, CWs and rapier as support, but I’ve found HoC more useful (and I don’t need rapier).

That’s my opinion.

Also, I don’t like “anti-faction” skills left behind, consider Sacred Assassin with better stats and strike BT 6-9. (9 would be the best, Seers/Grims cleaner)

 
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Originally posted by ohnonooh:

Dev could also rework on death/on kill skill. Right now on death is only use when specially paired with regenerate and on kill is so laughable that only highly customized card like gorrus may turn it mainstream.

Change on death to trigger when ANY assault leave play. So the card with On Death skill need to be active and will run it’s on death skill each time ANY assault leave play(DEATH).

 
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Delphan – 4 strike, 3 protect. Would it be overpowered? Yes. Would it be useful in competetive? I don’t know.

Yeah I don’t propose a card with stats like that, but I think you could push a card to have those level of stats and it’s still questionable whether it would be meta viable or not means we should be able to have somewhere in between (strike 3, protect 2) as a compromise.

Same goes for strike 8, I’m not exactly suggesting we should have a strike 8 card, but it wouldn’t be that OP if we did, so why don’t we have many 4/5/6/7 strike cards =/

Standard vs flashpoint, not good comparision

That’s more to highlight the difference in defensive cards no vs. then, so if missile silo wasn’t OP in the Aegis day, we should have something so much better nowadays to take out masterwork aegis.

 
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We just need supervalor to strongly discourage Summon. Also, something like Valor but taking into account structures as well as Assault Cards.

 
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Anything does direct damage is still very scary with a big number. For example,

Crush 10
Fear + Valor 10

Then there is Supply on Attacked, Swipe + Poison, Counter + Refresh and Legion which can also be very scary when reaching level 5.

Last, even simple Rally 5 can be dangerous in fear deck.

 
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Valor isnt enought, we need a modifier that procs on summon, everytime enemy summons a unit, it procs, something like strike all 1 on summon, or strike 4 on summon could be a good counter to summon.

The whole reason all skills are everywhere its because of summon, and because with a deck of only 10 cards + commander, the final number of cards that ends in the board its much higher, for instance, heal 8 seems like a good skill, but the thing is that is too random and can hit a unit that have hp almost full, same with strike, individual skills are better early game when there are a low number of cards in the board, where all skills are better late game, problem is that nowadays with summon, early play is shorter and in a few turns the deck is already filled rendering individual target skills useless.

Comparing strike all with individual strike, strike all 2 for example, with 5 cards into play is 10 damage, 10 cards and is 20 damage, while strike 8 its strike 8 no matter what in every moment of the game, also take into consideration augment, it augments individual skills and all skills by the same value wich doesnt seem like fair at all, now add enfeeble mechanics, evade, intercept, etc,etc…, also you cant choose the target of strike, so you have to just wish to be lucky to hit the target you want, single strike its nearly dead, and its only useful in very early game, and the same applies to individual heal and protect.

 
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Good idea, +1. Noticed the same some time ago, like probably many of us did, but didn’t bother to point it out. Sick of strike all/protect all and always glad to experience new stuff in tyrant.

 
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I’m going to use this to illustrate my example:

The “All” card is predictable, and you can use your strategy with it. You can build your deck in a way that synergizes well with it.

The non-all card is a crapshoot. Maybe it will dump its ability on something usefull, or maybe it will dump its ability on some card that makes no difference whatsoever.

All cards are better because there are not too many variables. You know what is going to happen and you can strategize to take advantage of a card’s potential. You arent rolling the dice on a “20% chance that this will target something usefull”.

I feel like the only cards that should have specific targets are cards that are summoned which are meat anyways. Some card that you arent going to rely on, but hey, maybe it will help out.

 
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Originally posted by whitegluejacky:

Are you kidding me? Demonic Power is a meh card??

“Meh” is being pretty generous for demonic power.

The chaces of it targeting what you want are usually pretty slim unless you are running something like a CG spam deck. Anyone who runs demonic power in a CG deck either doesn’t have Vial, or is an idiot.

 
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Originally posted by SeanDougherty86:
Originally posted by whitegluejacky:

Are you kidding me? Demonic Power is a meh card??

“Meh” is being pretty generous for demonic power.

The chaces of it targeting what you want are usually pretty slim unless you are running something like a CG spam deck. Anyone who runs demonic power in a CG deck either doesn’t have Vial, or is an idiot.

how about in odin augments?

 
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Originally posted by darkfang77:
Originally posted by SeanDougherty86:
Originally posted by whitegluejacky:

Are you kidding me? Demonic Power is a meh card??

“Meh” is being pretty generous for demonic power.

The chaces of it targeting what you want are usually pretty slim unless you are running something like a CG spam deck. Anyone who runs demonic power in a CG deck either doesn’t have Vial, or is an idiot.

how about in odin augments?

Or paired with hunter seeker.