[GemCraft chapter 0] 228 waves in Gemcraft (labyrinth!)

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Just to reassure everyone who was worried about scalability in the new gemcraft: it’s different without supergemming and with less insane manafarms, but there are plenty of new ways to go crazy.




Happy gemcrafting!

 
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Jesus. It was released only two days ago!

 
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Originally posted by frostlion:

Just to reassure everyone who was worried about scalability in the new gemcraft: it’s different without supergemming and with less insane manafarms, but there are plenty of new ways to go crazy.

[Picture][Picture][Picture][Picture]

Happy gemcrafting!

Wait, what? Endurance without Premium? YAY :D :D :D…. WTF STAR? D:

Originally posted by DJFaust:

Jesus. It was released only two days ago!

Tasselfoot would COMPLETE game in 2 days (probably). He “owned” Chapter Zero in 3 days (check comments of this film).

 
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Yes, sorry about the confusion, that’s the premium version I’m playing (hence the star). I figured weeks of fun is worth 5 dollars. :-P

And to avoid any other confusion, this is far from an optimal setup, but just something I tried out while messing around. I am sure people can get at least 10 times this score before too long and I expect that to climb to at least 100 times the score (10 million) eventually.

 
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Originally posted by frostlion:

I figured weeks of fun is worth 5 dollars. :

Yes it is, but it asks me for a credit card which I don’t have (and don’t really need one). What’s the point of using Paypal then? I can’t buy full version!?

 
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Okay guys, I’ve just beaten the game. It’s a brilliant part (especially Epic 4 and 5 stage), although a little boring after ~100 levels.
Going to Premium next week. Sometimes I felt it really hard because I can’t reduce banishments in free version.

 
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Interesting…about score:

Multiplier is best at I’m thinking regular angering – because of the angering multiplier. I think that it will be at most 40×. Battle amulets multiplier is calculable. The highest multiplier I can foresee achieving is 500×.

Next time, here are my thoughts:
Put that LY gem in a trap with the Deadly Traps skill maxed. Make more of them – not 1. Surround those 4 with amplifiers so that the # of amplifiers = # of traps. This is so that each amplifier affects traps (I’m not sure about the mechanics of amplifiers yet – haven’t even built one…
2. Build a mana farm, too. If you get enough skill points, you can build a successful farm. This will help you get to more waves, too, on endurance.
3. There’s a possible factor we haven’t accounted for: Shrines.

To all who are willing to try
We need a test on Shrine effectiveness: both Flash Beam and Charged Bolt.

Perhaps there is a way to beat any wave just with shrines… or weaken them to the point that they can’t survive.

We also need notes on the HP Curve. Is it still Geometric? It looks quite slow on Endurance.

 
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Originally posted by einfach:

Interesting…about score:

Multiplier is best at I’m thinking regular angering – because of the angering multiplier. I think that it will be at most 40×. Battle amulets multiplier is calculable. The highest multiplier I can foresee achieving is 500×.

Next time, here are my thoughts:
Put that LY gem in a trap with the Deadly Traps skill maxed. Make more of them – not 1. Surround those 4 with amplifiers so that the # of amplifiers = # of traps. This is so that each amplifier affects traps (I’m not sure about the mechanics of amplifiers yet – haven’t even built one…
2. Build a mana farm, too. If you get enough skill points, you can build a successful farm. This will help you get to more waves, too, on endurance.
3. There’s a possible factor we haven’t accounted for: Shrines.

To all who are willing to try
We need a test on Shrine effectiveness: both Flash Beam and Charged Bolt.

Perhaps there is a way to beat any wave just with shrines… or weaken them to the point that they can’t survive.

We also need notes on the HP Curve. Is it still Geometric? It looks quite slow on Endurance.

Uh do you know that Endurance requires to pay $5? D:

 
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Yes. I am thinking that we could get better scores without it…

 
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Hey Einfach, you make some interesting points.

endurance versus angering
Indeed it seems like the endurance multiplier will have a fairly solid ‘ceiling’ because you just can’t combine enough to keep up with the HP increase, so angering might indeed be more worthwhile. Especially because you can also get some more Battle amulets in normal mode. For example, you don’t get bonus mana for calling waves early in endurance (for obvious reasons), so no achievements for that either. You do need a set of normal waves that’s long enough to get all achievements but easy enough to anger a lot, will be interesting to see what the sweet spot is.
(Base monster HP seems to be bugged at a maximum of 3.333 billion right now, but that will probably be fixed soon)

traps and amplifiers
The trap idea might work, but I’m worried about the range, after all, you need over 20 monsters for the full chain effect and I’m not sure if it will chain outside the range.
From what I’ve seen so far, making one gem is the way to go in this setup, the main reason for this is there doesn’t seem to be a maximum firing speed (at least I haven’t found it yet with a lvl 21 gem) and your multipliers go pretty crazy. My lvl 21 gem had something like 140x damage and 120x chain. Now remember, with the damage going up too, that 140x is even more impressive and it also means you never have to worry about armor while angering.

Amplifiers are interesting because they give fixed bonuses regardless of the level of the affected gem, something like: “5 min/7 max damage, +2 firing speed, +2 range, +5% chance to slow.” Now mainly the range and the firing speed are super valuable if you can get them with a ‘cheap’ boost on a super expensive gem. In this case my lvl 16 gem got boosted by 8 ‘cheap’ level 12 gems(all of them combined costing half of the main gem). As you can see from the overview, this roughly doubled my damage, added about 80% to my firing speed and about 60% to my range as well as boosting my specials.
Their effectiveness is reduced a little bit with multiple adjacent towers, but it’s manageable, something like 90% for 2, 80% for 3, 65% for 4 I think.

other stuff
Mana farm is a good idea to be sure, although I found building it later on doesn’t work anymore. Maybe it’s bugged, or maybe gems just don’t attack monsters with higher armor than their damage?

As you can see from the map, I actually have tested shrines and they are awesome! Not for the bolts/lightning strikes though, although those are ok. The nice thing is higher level gems can cut as much as 50% or more from all HP in range. Set up 10 shrines in a row and you can literally reduce all enemies to a tenth of a percent of their max HP. Long before that, the bolts will probably have taken care of them already. In fact, if the bolts are strong enough, the mana you get from killing them the first time will be enough to buy new gems for the next shrine.
The lightning shrine is nice for taking down mobs in levels with long straight paths, but I found the lightning itself somewhat underwhelming and unpredictable. The bolt shrines do nicer secondary damage, but can only reach in a circle around the caster.

One interesting thing that was never an issue with gemcraft 0, but is now: now that you can copy higher level gems, the size of your mana pool is essential! At some point, the thing slowing you down won’t be how much mana you have, but how soon you are full and need to pause to spend it all again. The max pool size increase is a fixed amount each time (not a percentage), but the gems you want to copy double in prize every time. You’ll really start feeling it around a million gem-cost

Finally, as I mentioned above, right now monster HP seems to max out around wave 250 of endurance at about 3 billion, making other high end stuff difficult to try until that is fixed.

 
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traps and amplifiers
The trap idea might work, but I’m worried about the range, after all, you need over 20 monsters for the full chain effect and I’m not sure if it will chain outside the range.

In GC0, trap chains are different from tower chains. Trap chains hit the same target multiple times in a single burst. Has this been changed in GCL? Because if it hasn’t, then range won’t be a problem. In fact, mana farms will be even better, because they can tickle a single target 20+ times. Not only is that more shots per burst, but you don’t have to worry about massively saturating your track like you had to with Gc0 R/O gems.

 
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I’m sure others are way ahead, but I’m posting this as a data point, and because it’s the highest score I’ve seen.

Sorry I didn’t screenshot the game screen, but I was just pretty much fooling around and didn’t think it was anything special – was kind of surprised to see how high the score came out. The whole run was based on one Y/L FP gem surrounded by Y/L amps, as per frostlion’s example. FP got up to G11, amps were G7 or G8.

The difference in score between this run and frostlion’s earlier run is entirely due to the Battle Settings multiplier. I was playing with Quadruple monsters, Triple HP, Giants only, Higher Armor, Banished Heal, and Banishment Extra Income. I can’t quite handle Tenfold HP yet, which is the only significant multiplier remaining.

I can confirm that Battle Amulets maxes out at 3.40, because I got all of them (on this level at least – not sure if they vary per level).

The most interesting data point here is the growth of the Endurance multiplier. Frostlion ended up with 8.46, after defeating (it looks like) wave 225 or so. I was at 5.45, and I think the last wave I killed was 136. It’s hard to tell from just two data points, but it looks like the multiplier grows with something like a log function of the wave, which is not good news, since the HPs grow more quickly than that, and the mana per kill more slowly.

 
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little tip for swarm waves, set your towers to prioritize highest banishment cost. this makes the monsters that have made multiple passes be focused down, and saves you mana.

 
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@jpo – DON’T do Endurance. You’ll do even better with +20 waves (or the highest number of added waves) with a mana farm and angering. Also, next time, choose a higher Field base XP.

 
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I wonder why you use duals over triples? Since you’re on premium, you have triple mastery skill that Peter said will boost your gems higher than double. But I wonder what to add to Y/L if triple… Red sounds a nice choice, especially if it will be the only gem you’re playing with. Poison still comes out too weak, mana leech doesn’t sound an option for a KILLER gem, however it might be a nice one if you use L/O(/P) traps with the same color amps. Purple is again not for a killer gem, but for traps. Cyan? Wha? This leaves Blue, and this can do in fact, since you’ll be able to bunch monsters together to fully employ your hitting capabilities. So, Blue or Red – weird choice.

Yes, does supergemming ever raise damage of a gem? I have heard it harms both specials and firing speed, but what about damage?

(And pity I can’t buy neither the game nor kreds, for example… will wait and do anything later)

 
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@Vesper – remember the Deadly Traps? This should be in a trap, because there it will deal 50% regular damage, but have 50% more specials! So if you liked 11 straight chain hits for 10x damage, then what about 16 straight for 15x damage?!

 
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Originally posted by einfach:

@Vesper – remember the Deadly Traps? This should be in a trap, because there it will deal 50% regular damage, but have 50% more specials! So if you liked 11 straight chain hits for 10x damage, then what about 16 straight for 15x damage?!

Give me sign if you reach ridiculous numbers like 34 straigth for 36x damage (lol that would be End of World… for monsters)

 
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A run I just had. This is right before it died, my setup.

This is the stats I had at the end game.

This is mostly for stats and stuff, I didn’t do too good. I over angered the giant wave and it ended up killing me. I had double monsters on.

 
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Here’s my newest run. Haven’t done much more strategizing, just optimized a bit and had a higher level to start with.


To answer some of the points and questions raised:

- Gemsmoke: haven’t tried extensively, but the tooltip at least says chain hits in traps also hit multiple monsters.

- jpo: nice. The amulets can go a bit higher or lower depending on the map (for example, the ‘destroy all monster nests’ amulet isn’t available on all maps), but it will be well below 4x in any case.

- einfach and jpo: you’re probably right about angering having higher potential eventually. After all, in theory you can do infinite angering. For the moment though, endurance is the ‘easy’ way to do decently because you can more easily pace it depending on how well you’re doing and turn down the angering until you get your gem to a higher grade. The top scores from higher level experts may well come from non-endurance, but for now it’s a nice start.

- vesperbot: you’re right, triple would be better. You can get up to +22% instead of +15% to your damage/speed and the specials are still at 80%, so basically it’s an extra special and a slight damage boost. I’ll try a third part next time. My experience with the options so far: Red has a curve of sorts, it needs a little bit to get started but with a few hundred kills it really adds up. From what I’ve seen so far though, it doesn’t ramp up as much as some of the others (so no 20x number of kills added to damage). It’d probably mainly be good earlier on to allow more angering and get more mana soon, but it wouldn’t be too useful end game. To some extend the same is true for mana as well: might actually be useful early on to get you started on mana. Blue works, but Cyan is actually pretty nice too. You can get it over 100% chance to freeze for a few seconds and monsters then build up immunity very slowly, and remember: even with a 10% chance to trigger, it will still happen with the high fire rate. That means you can basically freeze every monster up to half a minute at least… might actually work just as well as blue.

- vesperbot: Supergemming with really low grade gems (like grade 1 or 2 on a grade 6 base) is totally pointless and will make things worse. Damage is the only thing that won’t go down, but it will not go up either, it will just stay the same. Supergemming with gems a little bit lower (like grade 4 on grade 6), is fairly decent for the first few times though. However, the specials boost ‘flattens out’ pretty quickly. For example, throwing grade 4 reds at a grade 6 red, the special goes 50%, 56%, 58%, 59%, 60%, 61%, 61%, 61%. So it may work for the damage if it’s just 2 grades below, but not the special. However, by that point it will probably be more efficient to just get four of them and upgrade the gem, because the scaling for that has become a lot more worthwhile than in GC0. There may still be a way to do it, but my conclusion for now is supergemming is out.

- einfach: with the skill maxed, traps actually give -50% damage +110% specials! So you’re right, they would be even more crazy. The one thing you can’t increase in traps is range (stuck at the same amount as grade 1 gems), but if your damage is high enough, that’s not really going to matter anyway. One thing you’re missing is it needs to be on a path, so you can only have six instead of 8 amps, but since it’s mainly the specials you’re going for anyway and amp special boosts are the least worthwhile part for Y/L, that is not a big issue either.

Will maybe try a three component gem in a trap later. For now though, time to actually complete the game first. :-)

 
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OK – G18 YL would be in a trap:
22K-60K * 105x damage * 100 targets = 2x as good! Don’t worry about range redox because it simply doesn’t matter.

(side note: this is as good as 100 Million firepower in GC0 – now combine that with angering and simple mana farm and what do you get?)

We need shrine stats – it’s a potential wild card that could be exploited for insane scores.

Another side note: Specials boost flattens out, eh? What are mechanics for G5 on G6 Red? Also, a capped gem + a capped gem = a higher-capped gem than would have been possible in GC0 – could it work here as well?

The theory: try reaching the cap on these and combining the capped gems. Is the cap higher for these new gems than for the original gems?

 
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To answer your question, we get this: !http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1206/epicgem.jpg! The mana gain caries over through the chain hit, so your maximum mana gets filled with one hit. Basically, I've won the game at this point I'm afraid... As for shrine stats, from grade 10 up, using bolts as reference (lightning is comparable) and without shrine upgrades: *[Gem grade]: monster HP reduction; number of bolts; damage per bolt* G10: -45 percent 126X 14K-29K G11: -51 percent 142X 24K-45K G12: -56 percent 157X 38K-82K G13: -61 percent 173X 63K-136K G14: -67 percent 188X 102K-226K G15: -72 percent 204X 163K-378K G16: -78 percent 220X 293K-775K G17: -84 percent 237X 448K-1.29M G18: -89 percent 253X 700K-2.13M G19: -95 percent 269X 1.10M-3.51M G20: -101 percent 286X 1.73M-5.78M Now that last one is where it gets interesting: does this mean insta-death to any enemy of any level? Pretty much, yes! They are reduced to 1 hitpoint. So if you weren't god yet, you are with this trick. I'm guessing Peter will be pushing through some patches soon enough :-) EDIT: I hope the layout isn't messed up for everyone else...
 
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For anyone having trouble with the lay-out in the above post:
- A high level (grade 22+) YOL gem in a trap is instant win. You do literally hundreds of millions of damage and get millions of mana for each attack.
- A grade 20 or higher gem when used in a shrine reduces monster HP by more than 100%, meaning their HP is reduced to 1. So basically killing any mobs instantly regardless of HP.

 
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I’m messing around with cheat engine right now to gather some data.

I’ve done endurance, and the monsters HP seems to cap out at 3,333,333 and it’s armor and such doesn’t increase either. At least that’s the case when I do endurance with giant monsters only+tenfold HP+quadruple monsters+all the other modifiers(except shadow clash). Endurance does have an end, but not at 512 this time, I wasn’t at the computer when it finished, but it’s probably around 1000 or so, probably 1024. I’ll do it again later.

Gem stats don’t cap at all. I’ve had red gems with well over 200,000 % of total kills added to damage, but the damage was so high that even that special was negligible. The firing speed was around 50,000,000.

I’ll post more stuff later.

 
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1337 waves, I believe.

 
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it’s 1337

max level is 500