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**this guide is out of date. It will be updated in a later patch! I’m working on a massive guide at the moment**
**A guide to playing SIZ and spending your EP!**
UPDATED MATH SHEET: [Updated Math Sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gOw7HOvY27kisrDpjsN0cJHRAzm4Msj9irWQjj91OSQ/edit?usp=sharing)
Updated 1st of March.
Changelog: Changed the recommended skills to Enhance for both strategies.
Fixed some typos.
A bit more information on some of the Companions. Moved Shiki to the least favorable for the second strat.
The first time you kill a boss, you will gain EP. EP is short for Enhancement Point and is used to Enhance your skills with a permanent stackable whopping 200% increase to the skills base damage.
You can Enhance your skills for the cost of 1 EP & 1 SP. You can relocate at any time, but beware, it gets really expensive, so choose carefully!
**There are two things you need to know, when deciding what to gild:**
**The super-fast-sp farming strat (Yeah I’m good with naming stuff):**
**Result:** Achieving a state of being able to farm 1-4 SP (and more depending on your Companions and their levels) in a matter of 1-10 minutes.
By far the best method of farming really quick SP.
**Appeal:** Suggested for anyone below a total of 1000SP and the correct set of party members. Remains very useful above 1000SP, but may need to relocate all of your gilds further up the skill list once in a while as you grow stronger, to increase the runs SP output to 3 or 4+SP in about the same amount of time.
**Companions Needed, listed by priority:**
Suteru (Additional Starting KI after reincarnation, because no one likes Sir Snail)
**Why you may not want this:** Doing those small 1-10 minute runs will become boring very fast, even though it’s extremely useful for farming SP. However, this build is not at all ideal if you want to explore the higher stages and gather more permanent EP boosts from the bosses further up. Also there will be a point in time, when you have many thousands of SP, where this strat will no longer be desired for both SP and EP generation.
**Strategy:** Depending on your current SP and party members (for party member guide and some neat leveling math, visit “The Newbie Guide” by Imyourwerewolf(“[http://www.kongregate.com/forums/22692-shonen-idle-z/topics/594778-newbie-guide”](http://www.kongregate.com/forums/22692-shonen-idle-z/topics/594778-newbie-guide”))), your goal is to Enhance skills for very quick 1-4SP runs.
To do this, you will need to put EP into certain low-cost skills.
For example, if you’re doing fast 1SP runs, you can enhance basically any skill you can acquire before reaching the 2K XP mark needed for reaching the first SP.
Recommended skills to Enhance: WITHOUT SUTERU MAXED: **Powerpunch** and **Chakra Flow**
WITH SUTERU MAXED: 3-4 EP in Kawarimi. Maxed Suteru allows you to get a level of Kawarimi from the start.
If doing 2SP or more per run, you should spend your EP accordingly by spreading them out more, so you reach a few low cost skills and some higher-cost skills closer to the desired XP mark.
Enhancing these skills with the 200% boost will drastically increase the speed of which you can perform the runs. As you farm more SP and level up your team, these runs will get dramatically quicker as well.
After farming SP for a while (40-50 runs) you will want to go on a longer run and try to take down the next undefeated boss. This way you can get a bit more EP, enhance more skills and increase the speed of the runs even further.
**The-end-game doomsday strat of terror and the like (I’m really nailing it):**
**Result:** Loads of EP and SP (If you’re strong enough).
**Appeal:** If you’re above 2000 SP or simply bored by doing low runs, you can take on the epic journey of exploring the lands and collecting those shiny EP treats while still maintaining a quite high amount of SP generation (and higher than the fast runs in the far, far late-game).
**Companions Needed, listed by priority, some of them are really close though:**
Shuramen (Ramen Ability Buff)
Gen.Garter (Increased Endurance Generation)
Mikka (Chest Cooldown)
Gen.Guts (Increased Max Endurance, level up only if you hit your endurance cap during your runs).
Shiki (Chest KI – Your absolute last choice!! Not that good)
**Why you may not want this:**
This will be very useless for you to try if you’re new to the game and haven’t collected a strong enough setup (Malenko, Yachi, Batto, Ryuku & Isuki) and leveled them up properly.
Your goal is to push as far as you can within a reasonable time window (15-120 minutes, depending on your Shonen Power & Party composition). You can push this time frame a lot longer if you wish acquire more EP, but this will drastically reduce your SP generation. It is however recommended to do a long run once in a while to get an extra EP or two to enhance your skills.
When it comes to the skills you want to gild, it is very simple: You want to put your EP into high-cost talents. Primarily those you get stuck on. For example my first EP is put into Meteoric Kick (Skill 25). After this it becomes easy, all you need to do is put EP into whatever skill needed to progress further.
I really recommend keeping 3-4 EP put into Kawirami so that you can also go back down and farm some quick SP.
Your ultimate end-game-goal is to have all your EP invested into the very last skill. It’ll take a good long while to get there, though.
for an example, Having 30 EP put into the very last skill and with less than 30 minutes farm time from a Reincarnation and to the skill itself, without guilding anything else, will allow you to push unbelievably far once you reach said skill, now that’s it’s boosted by 6000%. And that is just the start! It’s fun to progress a little each time you reincarnate for a change.
**Companion Guide for this strat:** You will want to follow the guide to leveling Malenko and Yachi found in Imyourwerewolfs google sheet, Link is in his newbie guide. These are your main damage increase providers.
Also you will need to put SP into Batto and Ryuku. These decrease training skill costs and increase your total KI, which in the end just gives you more cash to spend on skills, which in turn gives you more XP and a greater ability to push further and reduce the amount of farming you will need to do before a boss.
Isuki will also be needed to allow for a higher XP gain per run. Since this strat favors runs that push far into the content, you will kill a lot of bosses, making Isuki a good SP boost, even for her extreme leveling cost.
Since the runs are now longer, companions like Shuramen, Gen. Garter, Gen.Guts, Mikka & Shiki are now viable as you will see quite a few chests during your runs and have your abilities actually go off cooldown few times.
Chests gives an extreme amount of KI and reducing the Treasure Chest spawn timer by 5 minutes while also increasing the KI reward from it is gonna give you some well-earned KI boosts when you need them. HOWEVER, it would seem chests scale badly in the negative favor when getting around boss 12-13 and continues to scale worse beyond this point, therefore, you might not want to put too much into this, until chests will scale better.
Furthermore, Gen.Garter and Gen.Guts can now be used to multiply the KI gain even more. With 50% endurance, all KI gain is buffed by said amount from every KI generator, Monsters, bosses and chests.
**I hope you enjoyed the read!
Brincks / Chrysto**
Is it me, or does the EP 200% goes down after a time? Dodge lvl 3 is 2475 attack, lvl 4 is 3300 which is roughly 133,33…%
And punch lvl 1 is 2, and lvl 2 is 6. So that’s 300%. So either these calculations are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.
> *Originally posted by **[preske](/forums/22692/topics/603912?page=1#posts-10208365):***
> Is it me, or does the EP 200% goes down after a time? Dodge lvl 3 is 2475 attack, lvl 4 is 3300 which is roughly 133,33…%
> And punch lvl 1 is 2, and lvl 2 is 6. So that’s 300%. So either these calculations are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.
Interesting. I will test this out myself as soon as the relocation cost is reduced. I haven’t experienced any issues myself, but I’ll look out for it. If the calculations are wrong I’ll find out. :)
> *Originally posted by **[brincks94](/forums/22692/topics/603912?page=1#posts-10209637):***
> > *Originally posted by **[preske](/forums/22692/topics/603912?page=1#posts-10208365):***
> > Is it me, or does the EP 200% goes down after a time? Dodge lvl 3 is 2475 attack, lvl 4 is 3300 which is roughly 133,33…%
> > And punch lvl 1 is 2, and lvl 2 is 6. So that’s 300%. So either these calculations are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.
> Interesting. I will test this out myself as soon as the relocation cost is reduced. I haven’t experienced any issues myself, but I’ll look out for it. If the calculations are wrong I’ll find out. :)
I can post a screenshot if you like?
I havent spent any enhancement points yet, so im not sure. But from what you’ve written, it looks like the enhancements dont multiply, instead sum up or something like that. For example;
1→100%+ 200%=300% (100% base, upgrade is 300/100=300%)
2→300%+ 200%=500% (now if you consider upgrade 1 value as base, the upgrade would be 500/300=1.66=166%
3→500%+ 200%=700% (same again, 700/500=1.4=140%)
Numbers are slightly different, but it looks like it works this way.
Either it is a bit different for each training, or some other bonus is involved (probably clothes and/or accessories)
well guys, everything up here is hopelessly outdated!!! It's pre-dream and pre-rebalance of all the moves. Dream points and ep's are now the most important resource, so dream in sets of 3 to get them. Kawarami used to be the most cost-efficient move, now it seems to be punch. Only after it maxes out it's mastery lvl at 5, could it be beat by other skills.
Now don't go expecting fast growth, this game is a grinder after all
So, the only thing I'd still recommend from the first post, the old guide... is the math sheet.
1st up, Damage: Yachi and Malenko
KI: Batto and Ryuku
This is basically your core. Try to get them in that order too. Reroll if you have no core members to pick. Save before you do, close and refresh if you had a bad roll.
bad party members in my opinion: Don Bobon, Suteru and Berdo... And G.Guts (increase max endurance) if you don't have G.Garter to actually reach that max in your run.
**DS (Dragon Souls)**
Spend them on founder pet -> pets ->clothes
Do runs per sets of 3 dreams to get 1sp and 1ep on the 3d dream.
DP's (Dream Points) also count up with each sleep in a run, upto 3DP/sleep. When only looking at DP's, longer than long runs farm them fastest.
Focus on getting a bunch in the first skill, and getting some in the 5p xp skill. A few points in chest ki never hurt any1. The shonen power 5p skill just gives 1%, while 1sp gives 10%. And the training chamber boost is only worth it if you do really long runs.
The 10p and 25p row... For the 25p ones, as the game progresses and you get accesories and pets, they'll give more attack boost than the 1st skill.
The 10p ones are additive to the total pet boost(as example), they don't add 0,1% to the individual pet yield of 2% each but to the total % of all pets. In early play they'll be almost completely useless.
The 50p chests are usefull, especially the xp one. But just forget about the very last skill, it's over-priced for a 1-time use ability... turning latent sp into active
**EP's (Enhancement points)**
Dump them ALL in the first move. It's the most cost effective, and it'll save you the hastle of having to move ep's around later at 1sp each. I have not done the math, so if any1 feels like doing we'd have certainty and proof:-p
Way to play: just focus on lvling punch... only buy up the other moves's masteries to get to their 'training bonus'. You can check the math sheet to see where they are
Now you could also follow the old way of putting them on the highest move you can reach... That was done 'cause the cost for energy orb(a move) exploded and was otherwhise unreachable, but the moves have been re-done and re-balanced now. Now it turns out punch beats that hands down, and you'd have to move your ep's as you progress.
Then you have the old speed-run stuff as said in the top post here... but it's no longer viable. This was pre-dream, when sp was the only farmable resource!! It won't get the ep's from dreaming, and they'll easily outrace those you get from bosses. It also has a steady output of only 1 DP when you dream, while 3dream runs gets you 2 on average and 24-48h runs basically get you 3 on average.
Spreading out ep's makes it more fun to play, as progression will be smooth... but at a cost of lower max damage.
**When to reincarnate**
At first you won't make 1sp in less than 50mins, so do a 3dream run (3 x 50mins). It'll get you 2sp +1sp and 1ep from the 3d dream.
Once you can get to 1sp in less than 50mins, you can start doing a speedrun for 1sp while letting your dream recharge. Save that dream for after reincarnation, and start a 3dream run for only 2 x 50mins. And just repeat that process.
Boss xp explodes after lvl20, its a hard grind upto that... but once you get there it'll start picking up pace sp-whise.
Now ya could debate that you reach most of your sp gain in the first 50mins... and the 3d 50mins are just grinding to get 1 extra boss (gets real boring)... But don't underestimate the power of dreams. Some ppl still like to do all speedruns, and it can be usefull to gather up your core party... but it won't hold up to 3dream runs once the boss xp picks up.
And don't forget to buy up as much as you can before you reincarnate to get a few extra sp's
PS: I'm not god, so feel free to find your own way and your own answers. And if you feel you know better, I dare you to make a better fracking guide:-p
schevenelsniki: Challenge accepted! :D
But really I just want to posit an alternative to your enhancement guide and a defense of Suteru. Here's what has lead me to do so:
1. Punch has a base of 2 attack, with 10 EP it's 60.
2. Block has by comparison a base of 22, which is 11 times bigger than Punch's base. 1 point of EP taken from 10 in Punch and donated to Block instead already makes Block outperform Punch, without taking level into consideration.
3. BUT of course the next question is what effect level has. Well, generally speaking while Punch is always the cheapest skill, if there were no EP to worry about you'd always get the biggest damage bang for your buck by keeping your skills from Punch onwards always one upgrade/ML shy of the previous, i.e. if Punch is 250 it's cheaper to buy 225 of Block than 275 of Punch.
4. Therefore in order for Punch to be more valuable than Block as a dump, the single upgrade/ML point advantage must be greater than 11, which it only does at extremely high levels you'll never reach when doing 1 SP runs.
Block is by far the biggest base damage upgrade from Punch, but none of the other skills look like they get under even x4 more let alone x3 than the previous skill so while I can't say without more work on the math when to shift EP exactly I can say that in general you probably want to sink all your EP into the most expensive skill you can afford at the very beginning. This is why Suteru is actually good - he will help you afford higher base damage skills right out of the gate.
e: Experimenting has shown that there is more to the math than I could tell at first, but I'm still not wrong - I have 10 EP in Punch and 3 EP in Block with a 360% shonen bonus and level 4 Yachi; 250 Punch has 1.62 B attack and 225 Block has 1.61 B. I can afford 275 Punch at this point before 250 Block, and doing so puts me at 5.35 B for punch, but I predict that if I had those 10 EP in Block instead that my total damage will be higher than my current 6.96 B between the two skills.
I had an update here, realized I got an achievement which screwed with the results. I'm going to keep shoving EP in Block but only because I think the rebalance might have been so literal that there is no benefit to putting EP into any particular skill above any other when costs of upgrading to the next multiple of 25 is factored in, it's looking like that's the case for Block vs. Punch at any rate.
Another note: Run 25 and Dodge 50 give bonuses to all skills in the training chamber which results in pretty hefty boosts to total attack power. I'm thinking that if any skills are worth pouring EP into above Punch it's going to be ones like them, but it's possible that will be taken into account by the base damage as well which still makes scheven correct in claiming that putting everything in Punch is the easiest recipe for progression. In fact I'm going to say that until someone has better evidence to the contrary that in general leveling everything to within one or two upgrades/MLs of each other gives the most DPS regardless of which of those skills you've boosted with EP, as long as you've put all of the EP you have into skills you can actually buy.
Somehow the "cost" of buying the skills seems to be omitted.
I haven't done enough hardcore calculations.... but here's what I can conclude. Generally speaking, any hero pass level 150, the cost increase for each level is 7% more than the previous level... every level. This seems to remain constant with all the skills. So there won't be a situation (at least I believe) in which a lower tier skill will cost more than a higher tier skill when both skills are the same level.
That being said, I'm not so sure which skill is actually the "most cost efficient" in terms of DPS/cost. However, punch is the most accessible skill avaliable... and also the quickest to get to the x5 ML compared to other skills.... which makes it "feel" that it is the most optimal right off the bat.
Putting all your EP in one skill is stupid ... as unifo observed, each level of every hero costs 1.07 times the previous one. So the cost for x+25 will be roughly 5.4 times the current cost, while you get roughly times 3 attack. This means cost-effectiveness of every skill goes down exponentially with level, so you want to use the highest tier level skills you can.
unifo: You want the costs of upgrading the skills I'm talking about? Here's some data!
Punch from 0 to 275 (+ non ML upgrades): 476 (+298), 2631 (+1153), 14332 (+4462), 77852 (+17266), 422581 (+66814), 2.29M (+258550), 12.45M, 67.56M, 366.69M, 1.99B, 10.8B => total cost is 13,239,856,415 ki for 15552 times base power.
Block from 0 to 250 (+ non ML upgrades): 6807 (+4172), (+16142), 200834 (+62466), 1.09M (+241725), 5.92M (+935398), 32.11M (+3.62M), 174.28M, 945.88M, 5.13B, 27.86B => total cost is 34,154,367,544 ki for 5184 times base power.*
Notice anything, like that perhaps at every level along the way it's cheaper to upgrade Punch's multiplier than Block's? Not to mention that I mentioned that with even just level 4 Yachi and 30 Malenko I can stop here because I'll get over the 4 B attack needed to kill the 5th boss efficiently. I hope this lays to rest the idea of Myszone that you can simply use the level cost increase as a justification here - base prices are tuned around this so that the practical effect of waiting to level up a 'better' skill is nixed in the context of a 1 SP run. Not to mention that ML bonus increases by x1 every 100 levels or so which means even at high levels where going for more than 1 SP a run makes sense it's not necessarily the case that higher tier skills are automatically better than Punch without some more math deliberations. That's not to say there's no break even point on the diminishing returns so much but that it is in no way reachable until 1 SP runs can be had within seconds and even then given that I can't find a difference in EP balance when buying MLs as soon as I can afford them for Block vs. Punch, which has a base difference of x11 (biggest difference between one tier and the next by far), I'm not inclined to believe it's easy to hit the point where it matters until I see more numbers than this. Hell all you should need to do is build up a bunch of latent SP, reincarnate and then export the game so you can then play twice with an EP rebuild (one for Punch and one for Block) and be able to find the level where one build pulls ahead of the other if it's so darn certain this is all wrong.
*A note, you won't afford that last multiplier of Block either unless you have more than 3 levels in Ryuku or spend extra time intentionally underleveled. That means you only spend 6,294,367,544 ki for 1724 times base power.
> *Originally posted by **[Quarwyr](/forums/22692/topics/603912?page=1#10212693)**:*
> I havent spent any enhancement points yet, so im not sure. But from what you’ve written, it looks like the enhancements dont multiply, instead sum up or something like that. For example;
> 1→100%+ 200%=300% (100% base, upgrade is 300/100=300%)
> 2→300%+ 200%=500% (now if you consider upgrade 1 value as base, the upgrade would be 500/300=1.66=166%
> 3→500%+ 200%=700% (same again, 700/500=1.4=140%)
> Numbers are slightly different, but it looks like it works this way.
> Either it is a bit different for each training, or some other bonus is involved (probably clothes and/or accessories)
You Are cool cat