An angry guide to Windy Cliff page 2

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Originally posted by Stunna:

Would you recommend not playing a 5 hp, 2 atk squire 1st turn and just waiting until later then?

Oh, I’m not saying the card is bad. It’s… not good, but just fine as a filler in a limited cardpool. But I’d not suicide it into the initial Tengus just to deal a few points of damage and save a few points of life.

Originally posted by fg109:

mage skills

Petrifies as Deep Freezes are awesome. So are purple Fireballs, but at that point I’d consider units already because some of those are pretty awesome too and we don’t have infinite slots. Charm, Tempest and Fog I’m not a fan of, as the first two are situational and Fog… I don’t know, I don’t like it but I can’t say it’s bad with certainty. Maybe it’s just me not seeing it. I wouldn’t mind seeing Charms and Tempests but again, at this point you’re cutting something like Tengu Bloodseekers to make room for these.

Originally posted by deathvonduel:

Totem and Chief

I think the only case where I wouldn’t hit totem is if I had to clear a spot for a tank on a lane. Chief on the other hand is relevant because of exactly one thing – he brings everything else right into your face. If everything’s already in your face and more isn’t coming, there’s no reason to waste a spell on a 3/8 do-nothing. I’m not sure where I’d draw the line but there are definitely times when killing Chief isn’t correct.

 
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Originally posted by Polari:
The majority of players fail at this so disgustingly hard that it prompted me to write a guide (…). Given my source of motivation, I will be insulting people throughout this guide.

I have a feeling you and I will become BFF.

How people think Windy Cliff works:

The boss rushes you. Thus you put into your deck every card you own that you think could counter a pegasus rush, then place them on board whenever possible.

If I can nitpick… Oh, who am I kidding, of course I can. Direct counter to pegasus noob rush are spear vigilance elves; most people packs other vigilance and/or backstab for windy. Here’s their chain of though: boss starts with heroic unit in front of me, must make 100% vigil/backstab/direct damage deck.

direct removal skills.

This really requires emphasis. Boss plays Deadly blow (kill unit with CD 4 or less no matter what hp it has) and, most importantly, Frenzy, which kills units with CD 2 or less in 2×2 AREA. So don’t play all squires next to each other if you don’t want to lose them all.

Breakdown of the fight:

he’ll proceed to play multiple copies different Feles and Tengu each turn.


Important: from my observation his deck actually follows regular deckbuilding rules, which means no more than 3 copies of each card. This means that halfway through you should have pretty good idea what cards he has left.
By far the worst way to kill them is to start by placing low-attack Vigilance units behind them. What will happen is that the Vigilance unit deals 1 or 2 or whatever damage to the Tengu, gets hit by Backstab and dies.

Now this depends. 3* squire (1/2/5) played on turn 1 deals total of 4 dmg before dying, which leaves tengu with only 5 hp, so even lowest smite or drawn later 3 attack backstabber can kill it. Sure, white or green squire and paladin of any rarity are bad, no argument there. But 3* or better squire can be useful if you lack better cards. Same for 2* tengu assassin (you get 3 copies from campaign): it’s not ideal, but it gets job done. 4 dmg + it flies away to absorb ambush hit, if drawn later it can be used to chump-block flier. Not bad considering it’s guaranteed card in every player’s collection. And for crying out loud, don’t use 3* templars, 2 attack unit with CD 4 is piece of shit.

Just ask yourself, how often have you seen a Windy lost because you were unable to kill those initial Tengus while dealing with everything else? And how many times have you lost it because the second wave filled the first three rows and you had nothing to stop them with? The latter is what really is the problem here

Quoted for truth. Way, way too many noobs are afraid of losing even single point of hp and think about protecting themselves instead of thinking about team as a whole.

Moving on, there are two main ways for controlling the enemy’s main force. The first one is to clear a spot with direct removal, place a unit durable enough to withstand the onslaught such as an Incorporeal ghost or a big Lizard, and work your way out from there. This is fairly unreliable as you’re often staring at assassins which can quickly burst down anything but the sturdiest tanks in game, but it’s often a necessity.

This is where I disagree. Unless I’m mistaken boss has only 3 assassin masters, which means every other unit can be quite easily tanked by incorporeal. Ideally with something flying behind it to stop enemy tengu from jumping over. Lizards however are meh-adjacent, since ambush still hits them pretty hard. Thundering kind with stunning attacks can survive more (especially on normal), but incorporeal + flier (+some healer in back) should be your main line of defence. And now (version 1.2) priests can use sanctuary to protect incorporeals from assassin masters, making it IMO best strategy on hard.

The other way is to keep playing units which can trade with the incoming ones and manage the waves that way. A Feles Assassin Master, for example, can instantly kill one unit and eat up an ambush hit from another.

Except on hard orange assassin masters have 9hp. That and AI has full playset of every ambusher, so not every team (especially public) can emply this strategy because of their limited cardpools.

Totem and Chief I mentioned earlier are the two standouts. (…) Both of them should be eliminated on sight.

Some people disagree, but I always say Hrafn is priority. He turns feles into cavalry and tengu into pegasi; doesn’t matter how good your tanks are, you won’t have time and place to deploy them with Hrafn alive. Totem on hard difficulty is very dangerous too, but not Hrafn level of deadly (especially if you’re using incorporeal tanks). Save your direct damage for those two, don’t waste them early turns on pre-placed tengu.

These could also be an epic Battle Priestess

No, no, no. No. NO! Not even godlike with nude art. It looks like we won’t be BFF after all, since you seem to be one of those people who overrate her terribly. Look what you wrote earlier: boss has very few cards compared to other raids; outcome is decided around turn 10, if not earlier. Battle priestess/abbess won’t grow big enough to actually matter, she needs to heal something to grow and even then it’s just 1 attack/turn. And her hp are anything but tanky. She could be backrow healer supporting incorporeal tank, but she won’t ever win this raid with her hp or attack. Don’t even bother with putting in your deck if that’s your reason for including her. Healer yes, but nothing more.

Not mentioned in guide, but I’d like add the following:
Fog of war is usually bad idea, even if it stops damage they still move toward you. If you really, really have to use it for some reason, announce it turn earlier, so we can place units AFTER you played it.
Don’t use wall. Of any kind. Ever.
One or two longbows might be ok, but don’t overdo it. They still deal crappy damage to feles and have virtually no hp.
If you’re priest, use the most OP card available: inspire. Dread phantom/desperate soul is no good if it sits in hand with high CD.
Experiment with new 1.2 cards. Skeletons seem pretty good at tanking ambush.

Originally posted by artdz:
use pvp tokens to buy blue fireballs then upgrade to epic.

This is probably the worst way to use medals of honour, ever. Buy forgetfullness instead and cancel ambush on feles/flying on tengu/boost on totem/chief.

 
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Re: tanks: Yeah you’re right, I didn’t think about how few Assassin Masters there are, nor that DP’s dodge Deadly Blows. DP and DS should be pretty safe if they don’t get jumped over. But in my defense, you don’t start seeing a lot of those until everyone has all the good cards you’d want anyway. Lizards aren’t as good as incorporeals but I’d say they are playable and the second best choice, especially Armor 3 ones (like the 30% collection reward).

Re: BP: Uh, I wrote this a month ago and at this point I have no idea why I’d mention BP there. I wonder why that wasn’t called out earlier. I do still think the point I was making stands even if she’s a horrible example. You could run one or maybe two cards like that to seal the deal once the rest of your cards have stabilized, and if in some bizarro world you owned a purple BP but not the bread and butter Windy cards, she could go in your deck. As mainly a healer, yes, do note that I specifically mentioned the BP version that gains Cure 2. Also note that this was before I knew how packs worked and how hard it is to get one of those things.

Rest: Longbows could fill that role I was talking about with BP and that’s about it. 1.2 cards are pretty dumb and they’d probably work here through sheer power. Also I have no idea what’s wrong with getting Fireballs with medals. Purple ones are really good and way better than blues since they get more burn damage on top of the +1 immediate damage.

 
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The OP post is just perfect for any noob to read it and follow it.

noobs. pls burn into your head, that you dont need more the 15 cards.

make an experiment, dear noob. when you play windy next time, make a note on what turn you wiped out, or won, all cards in excess were useless, and you will hopefully see that we are not lying to you.

if you argue more cards mean more variety, you just mean to say you cant decide which cards are more optimal to get and it means you suck

even 15 is too much

sometimes i still gotta go to pugs, where the horror of noobs unleashes at full scale.

i still see them play encourages or heals.

dear noobs. pls learn the cocept of card advantage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage#Forms_of_card_advantage

specifficaly unfarourable combat reffers to KL

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/academy/11

 
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I disagree with Seizan epic fireballs are more useful then forgetfulness. Epic FB’s are standard mage spells anywhere where forgetfulness is far less useful. One epic fb takes out a tengu at the start too after 1 tick. Same goes for assassin masters.

If anything spending tokens on forgetfulness is “probably the worst way to use medals of honour, ever.”

 
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Originally posted by NicolBolas:

noobs. pls burn into your head, that you dont need more the 15 cards.

make an experiment, dear noob. when you play windy next time, make a note on what turn you wiped out, or won, all cards in excess were useless, and you will hopefully see that we are not lying to you.

if you argue more cards mean more variety, you just mean to say you cant decide which cards are more optimal to get and it means you suck

even 15 is too much

Since you like Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size

It’s obvious that NicolBolas cares only about posing and not at all about discussion or learning, so I won’t elaborate again. Instead I’ll just repeat my questions from another thread where he yet again ignored them:

Originally posted by Polari:

I also disagree on playing exactly 15 cards. Yes, the boss will run out of cards first, but sometimes you have half the guys dead and need a bit more to close it. I play 16 and wouldn’t mind 17 or 18

Originally posted by Polari:
Originally posted by NicolBolas:

its useless to have more then 15 cards.

more ppl dont realize its silly to build bigger decks then what they need

I already mentioned a reason for playing more, could you address that instead of throwing out unsupported claims? I have already seen games where having those few extra cards was relevant, so I assume your argument must be about the frequency of that happening?

 
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Originally posted by Polari:
Originally posted by NicolBolas:

noobs. pls burn into your head, that you dont need more the 15 cards.

make an experiment, dear noob. when you play windy next time, make a note on what turn you wiped out, or won, all cards in excess were useless, and you will hopefully see that we are not lying to you.

if you argue more cards mean more variety, you just mean to say you cant decide which cards are more optimal to get and it means you suck

even 15 is too much

Since you like Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size

It’s obvious that NicolBolas cares only about posing and not at all about discussion or learning, so I won’t elaborate again. Instead I’ll just repeat my questions from another thread where he yet again ignored them:

Originally posted by Polari:

I also disagree on playing exactly 15 cards. Yes, the boss will run out of cards first, but sometimes you have half the guys dead and need a bit more to close it. I play 16 and wouldn’t mind 17 or 18


Originally posted by Polari:
Originally posted by NicolBolas:

its useless to have more then 15 cards.


more ppl dont realize its silly to build bigger decks then what they need


I already mentioned a reason for playing more, could you address that instead of throwing out unsupported claims? I have already seen games where having those few extra cards was relevant, so I assume your argument must be about the frequency of that happening?

what? I actually think your guide is good and i wish mroe ppl would read it.
15-17 cards is the same….. I am in quarrel with noobs who come to windy with 20+ decks….

i still think 15 is more useful then 17, but I dont need to argue about it. I have never seen the need to go above 15 in that raid, but its just my experience

 
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If you agree that 16-17 is justified, maybe try not using such absolute language as “its useless to have more then 15 cards” or “even 15 is too much”? The kind of pomposity and swagger you use in almost every single post would be off-putting even if it was done by someone with skills to back it up.

 
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high hp ranger with 2-3 premed can use a bigger than usual deck. Only place I won’t use premed is deserts against the bane spam. Other than that, minimal sounds good to me.

 
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Originally posted by deathvonduel:

high hp ranger with 2-3 premed can use a bigger than usual deck. Only place I won’t use premed is deserts against the bane spam. Other than that, minimal sounds good to me.

be brave i use premed in desert too :D. Just run some arcane towers

 
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Originally posted by artdz:
Originally posted by deathvonduel:

high hp ranger with 2-3 premed can use a bigger than usual deck. Only place I won’t use premed is deserts against the bane spam. Other than that, minimal sounds good to me.

be brave i use premed in desert too :D. Just run some arcane towers

whats the net gain from that, apart from less consistence and reliability and higher risk?

 
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Originally posted by NicolBolas:
Originally posted by artdz:
Originally posted by deathvonduel:

high hp ranger with 2-3 premed can use a bigger than usual deck. Only place I won’t use premed is deserts against the bane spam. Other than that, minimal sounds good to me.

be brave i use premed in desert too :D. Just run some arcane towers

whats the net gain from that, apart from less consistence and reliability and higher risk?

Greater flexibility. Also premeditation is essentially -1 CD for the second card you pull in it’s place and every card thereafter. The earlier it’s used the greater it’s relative effect.

If mastery pops then on it’s second use it’s essentially -2 CD for the first card pulled that time, and -3 CD on the second and every subsequent card. Ad infinitum for an individual Premed returning to hand via mastery.

I like the card, but when most cards are weighted in their ability to trade card to card, Premed trades 5 health and 1 card to 0 directly. However, it does potentially open up plays that wouldn’t otherwise be immediately available. It’s an interesting card with it’s indirect potential.

Inspire is a good card that opens up significant plays. Premeditation’s effect on CD is individually smaller per card but permanent until you draw out.

 
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Originally posted by DigitalityKnight:

I like the card, but when most cards are weighted in their ability to trade card to card, Premed trades 5 health and 1 card to 0 directly. However, it does potentially open up plays that wouldn’t otherwise be immediately available. It’s an interesting card with it’s indirect potential.

Assuming you play it as soon as it’s available, premed also indirectly adds +1CD to the two cards directly after it, by virtue of delaying when you would have drawn them. That brings the total cost to 1 card, 5 health, and +1 CD on two cards. If you’re not running a full 30 card deck, the cost of a card is negligible, but it still does slow you down a bit at the start.

 
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Originally posted by TheSench:
Originally posted by DigitalityKnight:

I like the card, but when most cards are weighted in their ability to trade card to card, Premed trades 5 health and 1 card to 0 directly. However, it does potentially open up plays that wouldn’t otherwise be immediately available. It’s an interesting card with it’s indirect potential.

Assuming you play it as soon as it’s available, premed also indirectly adds +1CD to the two cards directly after it, by virtue of delaying when you would have drawn them. That brings the total cost to 1 card, 5 health, and +1 CD on two cards. If you’re not running a full 30 card deck, the cost of a card is negligible, but it still does slow you down a bit at the start.

It’s actually only a +1 to one of those cards. The first card drawn by premed is actually a -1 CD, but I left that out since it’s offset by the delay you take in drawing it over something else in the first place.

 
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You draw cards at the end of your turn, and they tick down at the beginning of your turn.
I’ll illustrate my point with two scenarios. The first case is where you have 4 cards in your deck, A-D, plus Premed. The second case is just case A-D.

Case 1 – Using Premed:
At the end of turn 1, you draw premed. At the beginning of turn 2, it ticks down to 1CD. At the end of turn 2, you draw card A. At the beginning of turn 3, premed and card A ticks down. You then play premed, drawing cards B and C. At the end of turn 3, you draw card D.
End result after 3 turns is: A – ticked down by 1; B, C, D all at full CD.

Case 2 – Not Using Premed:
At the end of turn 1, you draw card A. At the beginning of turn 2, A ticks down. At the end of turn 2, you draw card B. At the beginning of turn 3, A and B tick down. At the end of turn 3, you draw card C.
End result after 3 turns is: A – ticked down by 2, B – ticked down by 1, C at full CD, D still in the deck.

Net result is that premed adds +1 CD to cards A and B, leaves C the same, and effectively removes 1CD from all cards afterward, due to you drawing them a turn earlier.

 
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Does anyone else have the experience where level 30-32 players listen to you, but the level 35+ players are SURE that they’re right and inevitably cause failures on hard? I’ve forced several groups of initially bad players through normal after they listened, but some people just seem to have their heads up their butts when it’s on hard. “Why would you bring that card if it doesn’t have vigilance?”… ugh

 
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There’s an event for Windy Cliff hard right now.

 
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Excellent post and going to look into stickying this considering there is an event for this right now. Great job!

 
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I’m assuming here that people have balanced decks and are most likely playing publics. If you have a coordinated 4-man team capable of doing something other than the standard thing, you shouldn’t need me to tell you what works. In that case the dedicated spell deck seems good… but if everyone has enough of a collection to specialize their decks like this without sacrificing card quality, shouldn’t you easily stomp Cliff either way?

Main thing is mages, if ur running a windy with 1 mage 11 spells of decent raritys not hard really, is sanctuary good for windy, iv tried it once but we had one before i drew it

 
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Sanctuary is ridiculously great in Windy BUT you must not put it on a 1-2 cooldown unit. The boss will often destroy that unit with his special spell, the column will rush forward, and you’ll probably lose. Don’t waste it killing one tengu early on either. Use it on a loaded column where you won’t get blocked tanking two tengu for two turns; assassins are the best target.

If you somehow get two sanctuaries running at once, feel free to not petrify the totem and especially not the chief for two turns. If you can tank decently in the other rows, even one sanctuary is a reason to leave the chief out for a bit.

 
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What should i nuke first? Hrafn or Totem

 
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Hrafn, unless he doesn’t have any cards left.

 
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And please don’t bring farmhand Westley on stage 2

 
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please don´t bring him anywhere but the trash…