Lack of lvl cap rasie

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I don’t think I am alone in wondering why there was no lvl cap raise. Most people that have lvl capped or are close to lvl cap were hoping and I think expecting to see a cap raise.

Now one of the reason I can see for the lack of cap raise could be that the database field that stores xp to next level is maxed out which means that any level above 100 would either need to use the same amt of xp ( (2^63) – 1 ) needed to go from lvl 99 to 100, the field size would need to be increase (maybe by making it an unsigned int64 instead of signed) or there would need to be a new way to track lvls beyond 100.

Just throwing my 2 cents of a way around the problem of lvls past 100 if in fact I am correct as to what may be holding it up.

Have a branch when xp is rewarded that check for lvl >=100. If that triggers then divide the xp reward by 2500 (the amount of the lowest boss that grants xp/dmg). Make the amount of xp needed for next lvl then follow the same idea and calculate what the amt would be using your normal progression and divide that number by the same 2500 as the reward was cut by.

That way you give your self some breathing room inside of that field and while the amounts to lvl may look like they are easier to get because both the reward and amt needed are cut by the same factor they stay equivalent to trying to lvl below 100.

And if you wanted to give yourself even more room to allow for lvls above 100 you could use a bigger factor instead of 2500 since really what lvl 100 is going to waste their time and e hitting a demon gate boss.

Anyway just a thought I had, my assumption as to why no lvl increase may be way off, but on the off chance I’m not wrong I figured I would throw out a solution that may not have been thought of yet.

 
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Good thought DMH, I think I talked to someone in chat about doing something like that. It’s a simple and good solution to an increasing problem, so let’s hope kingk sees this. :)

 
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If the level cap is raised as soon as a few player reach it, then it’s not really a level cap. The next time level cap will be considered to be increased is probably after at least 10% of the active player base have hit it, or when there is new content that requires a higher level cap.

 
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Kingk, I won’t argue with you that it’s very common in games to have level caps, but this game relies a great deal on being able to level. Without the ability to level well then will most people not find the fun in playing… Sadly it’s the most active people who reaches the cap first and then stops to play. So, just take a minute to consider the fact that we might actually need a higher level cap.

 
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Assuming that people don’t quit or slow down significantly (which is unlikely since I have already seen and talked to people that are intentionally slowing because there is no point to ‘rush’ to cap) you could expect to have 20-30 lvl 100 in a month.

These people need a carrot to chase to keep their interest and frankly this update isn’t it for people at or close to cap. With a lack of new gear, new lvls, and badges that I will probably have all of by end of event (and I know I am not alone in this) the only thing really keeping folks like me around is their guild or their own personal milestones that they decide to chase.

With no real visible progress though that can only hold someone for so long.

You seem to have a mechanic for areas that can cover the 100+ crowd. If you follow the same pattern as hell 1-3 which iirc is 98-100-102, hell 4-6 could cover 104-106-108 (or if you want to stretch it out a bit 105-108-111) and would require only new artwork and and gear set (new gear for h5, greater version or enchanted version of new gear for h6). You could even go so far as open hell 7-9 with level 110-112-114 bosses if following the h1-3 formula (or 115-119-123 if increasing the lvl gap between bosses by 1 from h1-3 to h4-6 and then again from h4-6 to h7-9)

Because it would not be instant kill bosses like ms it would be that carrot people need to get them playing and lvling or buy a crap load of gems to get con/def high enough to survive when under lvled. Either way it wake up the lvl 98+ in your user base and hopefully gets them grinding again.

 
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i think this update was retarded without a level cap raise just my thoughts

 
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Originally posted by kingk:

If the level cap is raised as soon as a few player reach it, then it’s not really a level cap.

True…
But why would you desire a level cap? What’s the point?
If it’s not a technical limitation, from a player’s perspective I can’t see any reason at all to essentially end the game at level 100…

I’m only level 94 so it doesn’t affect me, but it seems like a very odd concept…

 
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I am sure the most of the level 100 players (and those close to it) are anxious to see the level cap increase, so the exp earned won’t be wasted. However, the finish line has to be drawn for several reasons. The most two important being:

  • There needs to be a “reachable finish line” that for lower level players to have a reasonable chance to hit. They will never be able to hit it if it’s increased whenever 0.01% of the active players hit it. In the end, many will just give up because they will never reach that finish line.
  • Without proper level cap, expansion content planning is extremely difficult to accommodate for decent percentage of high level players. In the end, we are forced to release contents that make the very top players feel are meaningless, because they can easily kill the newly released bosses. This is exactly why some top level player feels that expansion has no meaning without a cap increase. In this respect, every expansion since Isendel was technically a failure due to lack of proper level cap.

Imagine if a hard level cap was actually properly managed, and the cap was still at 95 before this expansion, and only increased to 100 after the expansion to allow top players to fight the new bosses. This expansion would be a lot more meaningful to the top players and they will be motivated for months. The truth is that some level capped players will stop playing, while some will grind for other things such as faction points/levels and help guild with various aspects. Our hope is that the next time level cap is increased for new content, those capped players who stopped playing will come back to the game. We decided to take this gamble this time, because it’s better than not really have a level cap and keep releasing expansions where the top players will get bored with in less than one week.

 
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Originally posted by Xyphistor:
Originally posted by kingk:

If the level cap is raised as soon as a few player reach it, then it’s not really a level cap.

True…
But why would you desire a level cap? What’s the point?
If it’s not a technical limitation, from a player’s perspective I can’t see any reason at all to essentially end the game at level 100…

I’m only level 94 so it doesn’t affect me, but it seems like a very odd concept…

I believe it IS a technical limitation among other things. If I remember correctly, when the level cap was 99, the experience requried to get to lv99 was equal to the maximum signed 64-bit integer (2^63-1). When lv100 was added, the experience required to get from 99 to 100 was equal to what it takes to get to lv99, making the total experience accumulated by lv100 equal to maximum unsigned 64-bit number (2^64-1). Looks like the next level cap increase would require something more than 64-bit integers to store experience counters. Might be quite a challenge.

 
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I understand your reasoning kingk, but I don’t agree with it :p

Regarding your first point (which I did think of before): simply, I don’t believe that’s the case. :p
There is no need for a ‘finish line’ – DW isn’t the kind of game you play to ‘finish’…
You play because it’s fun, or you enjoy the community, or (most relevantly) you play to level up to get to new stuff… You want to get to new areas, new bosses, new gear etc.
There’s no incentive to try to get to a finish line in 300th place…

Your second point is not something I had thought about before, but I don’t think the problem is where you think it is…

Originally posted by kingk:


In the end, we are forced to release contents that make the very top players feel are meaningless, because they can easily kill the newly released bosses.


I don’t think you should be forced to do that at all – I don’t believe that new content HAS to be targeted at lower level players…
Remove the level cap, and aim the major new bosses/areas at (currently) level 97+ (possibly accessible to lower, but almost impossible for them)…
Scale your expansions with, for example, the top 50 or top 100 players in mind…
This gives incentive to the top guys to play, since a) there’s new stuff that challenges them and b) the ‘race to level X’ actually means something to them, since they’re in the running…
It also gives incentive to lower players to get leveling so they can enjoy the new content as well – you have a target that’s not just ‘Level 100: Game Over’ as it basically is now, rather it’s ‘Level 100, cool new dungeon/mobs/gear etc’…

Lower players have all the stuff (and more) that the now-99/100s had, it should be plenty to keep us busy…
The little tweaks like enchanted stuff in BM, class changes etc is enough to keep things interesting for us, while expansions at the top level give us something to look forward to as well as giving the top players something to do…
And if you want to make an expansion targeted at top players and still give something all the lower people want, make more stuff vaultable… Something for everyone :p

On a few other points you raised:
The whole ‘grinding FW for your guild’ thing is altruistic, but it’s nowhere near as good an incentive as personal character improvement…
If you keep the level cap now, and hope people come back when it’s raised at a future update, they need to know EXACTLY when to expect that update…

Sorry if this post is kinda rambling, it’s taken me ages to write :p

 
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Originally posted by llGalaxyll:
Originally posted by Xyphistor:
Originally posted by kingk:

If the level cap is raised as soon as a few player reach it, then it’s not really a level cap.

True…
But why would you desire a level cap? What’s the point?
If it’s not a technical limitation, from a player’s perspective I can’t see any reason at all to essentially end the game at level 100…

I’m only level 94 so it doesn’t affect me, but it seems like a very odd concept…

I believe it IS a technical limitation among other things. If I remember correctly, when the level cap was 99, the experience requried to get to lv99 was equal to the maximum signed 64-bit integer (2^63-1). When lv100 was added, the experience required to get from 99 to 100 was equal to what it takes to get to lv99, making the total experience accumulated by lv100 equal to maximum unsigned 64-bit number (2^64-1). Looks like the next level cap increase would require something more than 64-bit integers to store experience counters. Might be quite a challenge.

Not really. All you would have to do is set up an additional integer slot to say store “Bars” that each equal 2^63 – 1 xp. All experience gained from lvl 1-99 would count as 1 bar; experience to lvl 100, a second bar. Increasing to level 101, 102, 103, 104, and 105 may require collecting a total of 4, 7, 11, 16, and 21 bars. If you want finer increments than that between levels, increase the xp to bar ratio by a factor of 10 or 100 (i.e., so 2^63-1 xp = 10 or 100 bars).

 
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Originally posted by kingk:
There needs to be a “reachable finish line” that for lower level players to have a reasonable chance to hit.

This is like asking for people to leave when they hit lv100 :|
Not a great idea.

Desmonde nailed it: there shouldn’t be no level cap at all. This game doesn’t need caps. It worked great and flourished until the first players reached the first lv95 cap.
Think about it.

 
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This isn’t the sort of game to have a level cap. Or do you really want to kill this game off well and truly?

 
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Originally posted by RaptorKris:

This isn’t the sort of game to have a level cap. Or do you really want to kill this game off well and truly?

yes. 100 is PERFECT.

 
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Originally posted by kingk:

I am sure the most of the level 100 players (and those close to it) are anxious to see the level cap increase, so the exp earned won’t be wasted. However, the finish line has to be drawn for several reasons. The most two important being:

  • There needs to be a “reachable finish line” that for lower level players to have a reasonable chance to hit. They will never be able to hit it if it’s increased whenever 0.01% of the active players hit it. In the end, many will just give up because they will never reach that finish line.
  • Without proper level cap, expansion content planning is extremely difficult to accommodate for decent percentage of high level players. In the end, we are forced to release contents that make the very top players feel are meaningless, because they can easily kill the newly released bosses. This is exactly why some top level player feels that expansion has no meaning without a cap increase. In this respect, every expansion since Isendel was technically a failure due to lack of proper level cap.

Imagine if a hard level cap was actually properly managed, and the cap was still at 95 before this expansion, and only increased to 100 after the expansion to allow top players to fight the new bosses. This expansion would be a lot more meaningful to the top players and they will be motivated for months. The truth is that some level capped players will stop playing, while some will grind for other things such as faction points/levels and help guild with various aspects. Our hope is that the next time level cap is increased for new content, those capped players who stopped playing will come back to the game. We decided to take this gamble this time, because it’s better than not really have a level cap and keep releasing expansions where the top players will get bored with in less than one week.

tl;dr – The level cap is kept there so you can actually enjoy the next expansion, instead of constantly getting new expansion bosses you can easily beat off the bat because you over-leveled.

 
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It seems like you don’t realize exactly how long it is to go from lvl 99 to lvl 100. Adding lvls beyond that with the release of hell 4-9 could easily take you to lvl 120 for a new cap and take players a month or more per lvl. The mechanic is there with what you introduced in hell 1-3 it would only require new mob art and a few new item sets.

For the majority of the people capped that 20 lvl grind would represent a large investment of time or a huge investment of gems to get through it with any speed, most likely a lot of both. So most people would take the better part of this year to get to the new cap. And those that did it faster would have done so padding the playmage coffers instead of spending nothing to just build stats and slow grind stuff (or quitting all together) while waiting for the lvl cap raise to come

 
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tl;dr – The level cap is kept there so you can actually enjoy the next expansion, instead of constantly getting new expansion bosses you can easily beat off the bat because you over-leveled.

.. this was meant to be a quotey bit of kingk.. but i obviously did it wrong lol

i agree with what kingk is saying here.. how many peeps were moaning about the new badges coming out and saying..ohh if its for a low lvl boss it will be annoying to get it as i dont wanna hit those ones anymore ..

yes i am hoping that the lvl cap will increase as i really enjoy playing the game and chatting with the other peeps, and i would like the game to continue, but the lvl cap cant be increased without higher lvl stuff to kill.. and higher stuff to kill is getting there … i do like the idea of hell 4-6 n 7-9 though, (not that i am anywhere close to seeing any of it) but if it keeps the others playing its all good ;-) ..

 
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Wouldnt have this problem if kingk would open 4-7 (^_^) then raising the cap is an obvious choice. Design the material for the player not the player for the material

 
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Why not stop making it easier to survive bosses after lvl 100? If thats what your worried about?

 
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Originally posted by Avalokitesvara:
Originally posted by kingk:
There needs to be a “reachable finish line” that for lower level players to have a reasonable chance to hit.

This is like asking for people to leave when they hit lv100 :|
Not a great idea.

I don’t post often on the forum, but since this is a topic I have a strong opinion on, I must speak up. I don’t know if I’m in the minority here, but I’m glad the level cap did not change. I don’t want it to. Ever.

Why would the cap need to be raised? It has been mentioned that people would be motivated by improving their character, but leveling has nothing to do with that, quite the opposite. The last time I gained any benefit from leveling was way back when I could first survive Lolith’s strong attack. Since then, every level I have gained has made me weaker, since the Arena bosses have continued to level and have become relatively stronger than they were a few levels ago. For the last four levels I have been penalized for every level I have gained, yet I have not stopped. Rather, I believe I have been one of the fastest risers through the ranks.

In my opinion, people who play this game just to reach an arbitrary number are playing it for the wrong reason. This game should be all about the content, not mindless grinding. There is already quite enough of the latter, and we don’t need one bit more. There is however not nearly enough of the former.

What I have been looking forward to for a long time is reaching the end. But it need not be the end of the game, only an end to the mind numbing boredom that is grinding for experience. If I were to reach level 100 today, it would certainly affect my playing habits. Instead of focusing on Faction War as the only means of gaining experience to level, I could do a bunch of other things that are both more enjoyable to me and more beneficial to the guild. Rage bosses until I reach kill scores over 1000? Sure. Challenge myself at Atlantis to increase my high score? Why not. Help out guild members and friends in lower level areas? Sounds like fun.

What this game should do more is support different playstyles. Right now no one above level 90 would ever rage normal Isendel areas because of their terrible coin return. No one would even think about demon gates or alien portals after getting the badges for them. So why not do something to make those areas more appealing, to add more things that are worth doing? I would love to see all areas in the game become meaningful again, without them being mere coin sinks.

What I’m looking at right now is something not at all to my liking. So we got three more bosses. More health, hit harder, same old same old. And we have six more levels of Hell to look forward to, probably with a level cap increase to make those areas survivable? Instead of adding new content, we get more of the exact same thing, except even more tedious, while older areas continue to become irrelevant as you move along? Instead of reaching my goal, in some months I could enter the last lap only to see the finish line is no longer there, leaving me with nothing but a sense of wasted effort?

To hell with that. Two years of grinding to reach level 100 is enough. It needs to end. Finally, definitively, end.

 
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understand that, but what stops you from doing other stuff…eh probably why i wont get to 100 this year hehe

 
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I don’t think the level cap has to be raised but I think it’d be nice if xp did something. Even if it’s every quadrillion xp = 1 learning point or every quintillion xp = 1 con. Something. Or trade large amounts of xp for chances at gear, or mboxes, or turn them into coins.

 
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Hmm, true diaversai. When I start to think about it then I don’t think people are so upset about that they can’t gain any levels from the exp they should have gotten, but rather that they can’t do anything at all with the exp they got. So yeah, your suggestion of making a store for level 100 people to buy things for their excess exp actually makes a lot of sense. This should both please the players, keep their activity somewhat more up and also enable Kingk to have this level cap. :)

 
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Originally posted by kingk:

I am sure the most of the level 100 players (and those close to it) are anxious to see the level cap increase, so the exp earned won’t be wasted. However, the finish line has to be drawn for several reasons.

Originally posted by kingk:

Update March 26, 2011

  • Staff Enhance Bonus – Each time a staff is successfully enhanced, it will also gain +0.4% increase to its spell damage bonus

How do you know it? Do you talk to them in chat rooms? If so, you should know how to make correct updates.

Battle fatigue? You strengthen swords, then nerf all of us, and finally remove the battle fatigue.
Class balancing? Mage takes the advantage of enhanced potions, and you finally increase sword/gun attacks after two years for what you say the class balancing?

Moreover, it seems the level factor is too important everywhere in the game and it should not be. Fix the formula so the level won’t always make a big difference. In short, please think twice before you release any update.

 
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Lf2ian, I’m finding it really hard to see what you’re trying to prove with your quote with the staff enhance bonus. First off, it’s not even the update version with +0.6%/enhance. Secondly, mages rely on magic power, not on attack. And mage have not been the strongest class for 2 years. Mage didn’t become the best class until the release of the FW and along that the level 90 classes and the talisman. So, yeah, mages were much stronger than the other classes the past year and now I believe it has been evened out a little. There’s nothing wrong with the class balancing in the recent update.

So please, think twice before complaining.