Relationships Mafia (End Game) page 2 (locked)

214 posts

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Ahem.

I’m totally not confirming.

Nope, nothing to look here. I’m not confirming at all. I totally did not receive a role PM that indicates I’m a [redacted]. Nopey nope, not confirming at all.

RNG vote CowFriend

 
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Confirm.

 
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[Confirmed]

Vote: [helltank]

Reason: He RNG Voted.

Action: Watch helltank carefully for any signs of suspicion other then the RNG vote…

 
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Confirm.

 
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Confirm.


[Arken]

Action:

Do I need to quote that argument against this again?

 
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Claiming Cop

 
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Confirm.

 
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Originally posted by Bluji:

Confirm.

 
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Well.

We need a discussion starter.

 
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Confirmo

 
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Originally posted by Jaskaran2000:

Well.

We need a discussion starter.

Originally posted by ocelot:

Claiming Cop

 
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I’d say that ocelot has a 75% chance of being scum as if he is really a cop he would not claim first day; he is far too experienced for that.

Furthermore, if he is really a cop, the mafia will NK him first night so we’ve just got a dead cop on our hands, which is NOT good and does not help the town. If he was really a cop he would have realized this.

I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop(excluding the possibility of stupid gambits) and can’t rely on the “DOCTOR PROTECTED ME THAT’S WHY I DIDN’T DIE” argument.

 
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Role Confirmed


(Helltank)

RNG vote CowFriend

I am tempted to quote that massive argument against RNG voting again.


(arkenarken)

Reason: He RNG Voted.

Why should scum be more likely to RNG vote?


(ocelot)

Claiming Cop

Why claim so early, especially before a night is up? You don’t even have an invo result to help town with. How do you know that there is a Doc in this game?

FoS ocelot because of odd behavior as a Cop.


(helltank)

I’d say that ocelot has a 75% chance of being scum as if he is really a cop he would not claim first day; he is far too experienced for that.

If ocelot is experienced, why would he pull something as stupid as claiming Cop D1? Why do you think scum would claim Cop D1 when that would surely be the single most stupid thing they can do?

Furthermore, if he is really a cop, the mafia will NK him first night so we’ve just got a dead cop on our hands, which is NOT good and does not help the town.

Converse of ocelot’s question: How do you know that there isn’t a Doctor in this setup?

If he was really a cop he would have realized this.

Do you think ocelot might have been told about the existence of doctors in the game?

I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop(excluding the possibility of stupid gambits) and can’t rely on the “DOCTOR PROTECTED ME THAT’S WHY I DIDN’T DIE” argument.

Lolwut.

> Asks Docs not to protect claimed cop
> We can always check whether ocelot cop or scum by lynching him later
> Scum will not kill ocelot because heywhybother, town’s gonna lynch him
> Scum might have a roleblocker in which case we are borked

Also, fishing for Doc?

 
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[RNG vote: helltank]

 
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My argument is simple, Adeeb.

Ocelot is experienced. He claims to be a cop.

If he is experienced and a cop, he would not claim to be a cop.

Therefore, he is not a cop.

However, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt; perhaps the cop claim was a rash decision, a fingerfuehler, if you will. So we move on to our second set of axioms.

The mafia know whether ocelot is lying when he claims he’s a town role.

If the mafia know that ocelot is in a town role, they will kill him as they have a 50% chance of killing a powerful role.
If the mafia know that ocelot is not in a town role and is one of them, they will not kill him as they are physically unable to.

Therefore, if ocelot is NOT killed, he is one of the mafia and should be lynched.

Therefore, we should wait until D2. If ocelot is not killed, we lynch him.

-

Can you explain to me, in simple logic, what is the flaw in this argument? I’d appreciate it :)

 
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(helltank)

There is nothing fundamentally wrong in the argument, except that it does not take psychology and meta into account.

Let me go step by step.

Ocelot is experienced. He claims to be a cop.

If he is experienced and a cop, he would not claim to be a cop.

Therefore, he is not a cop.

As I asked you, how do you know that ocelot has not been told about the existence of doctors in the setup? Claiming cop in a setup with a doctor is actually good strategy. As I might have mentioned, I want ocelot’s answer to my question about his knowledge regarding docs.

However, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt; perhaps the cop claim was a rash decision, a fingerfuehler, if you will. So we move on to our second set of axioms.

I am not willing to consider it a rash decision yet.


If the mafia know that ocelot is in a town role, they will kill him as they have a 50% chance of killing a powerful role.
If the mafia know that ocelot is not in a town role and is one of them, they will not kill him as they are physically unable to.

Scum always have a 50% chance to kill a PR. If I claim Cop now, it will not increase or decrease the possibility of me being a cop because my role is constant.

Or, they could not kill him so as to breed suspicion and bring about a possible mislynch.

Therefore, if ocelot is NOT killed, he is one of the mafia and should be lynched.

As I said, scum has no reason to NK him when keeping him alive, they can create confusion.

Therefore, we should wait until D2. If ocelot is not killed, we lynch him.

That’s a bit silly, lynching him that early. A claimed cop should be allowed a couple of investigations so that if he does flip town, we have some useful leads.

Also, I am against your idea of preventing Docs from protecting him. That’s like asking scum to target him since Docs won’t be protecting him. What if he actually turns out to be cop? We will have a lost a useful power role.

There is a third possibility of ocelot being a scum role that benefits from being protected, such as one of those “Kills if protected” scum roles, since that will allow him to dispose off a town PR early. Or, it could be fishing for Doc on his part. This is what the experienced ocelot would do, I guess, but then, I want him to talk more before we reach any conclusion.


I’d have liked answers to my questions in my post separately. Quote them and answer them if you can, please.


(Jask)

[RNG vote: helltank]

Is that an attempt at showing helltank why RNG voting is stupid?

 
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[Arken]

He RNG Voted.

And what problem do you have with RNG voting, why are you taking it as a scum move?


[Ocelot]

Claiming Cop

Hmph. Either you’re scum, or you’re really a cop. Considering helltank is setting you up for a day 2 lynch, if you don’t get lynched in day 1, it would be the perfect opportunity for scum to not kill you if you’re not scum. Helltank didn’t consider the possibility of the scum doing it on purpose, so he’s fooled into thinking that ocelot is scum, even though there is a 50% chance that he is not.


[Hell]

I’d say that ocelot has a 75% chance of being scum as if he is really a cop he would not claim first day; he is far too experienced for that.

So, you’d say he is not experienced enough to pull off a trick like that so he can survive night 1, and day 1, so that people would think like you, and scum would find him useful?

if he is really a cop, the mafia will NK him first night so we’ve just got a dead cop on our hands,

The thing is, if he really is a cop, the scum would think of him as a perfect target for a lynch on day 2. Thus, I really doubt we will have a dead cop (if he is a cop) if people start thinking like you.

I will ask that doctors

How do you know there are doctors in this game?

stupid gambits

How would a gambit like this be called stupid if it is effective?


[AdNa]

I am tempted to quote that massive argument against RNG voting again.

I’ll be able to counter it, though, if helltank is incapable of doing it, that is.

How do you know that there is a Doc in this game?

When did he mention their is a doc in the game? What if it isn’t part of his gambit, have you even considered the possibility?


[Hell]

If he is experienced and a cop, he would not claim to be a cop.

How exactly do you know this? Why would he not claim to be a cop? It is not necessary a person may play the same way as usual, how do you know this for sure?

If the mafia know that ocelot is in a town role, they will kill him as they have a 50% chance of killing a powerful role.

Yeah, because town will totally not lynch him if they follow your thinking and the mafia will totally not predict that.

Therefore, if ocelot is NOT killed, he is one of the mafia and should be lynched.

What if he’s actually a cop who has pulled off an amazing gambit? How do you know he is mafia, when the mafia have a high chance of framing him?

Therefore, we should wait until D2. If ocelot is not killed, we lynch him.

I disagree, I find it unlikely for you to be considering other possibilities. Therefore, I believe you are trying to bus on ocelot.


[FoS: Ocelot] for having 50% chance of being scum.
[FoS: Helltank] for most probably trying to bus on ocelot so would be cleared of suspicion.


[Adeeb]

Is that an attempt at showing helltank why RNG voting is stupid?

To be put quite bluntly, no.

 
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Furthermore, if he is really a cop, the mafia will NK him first night so we’ve just got a dead cop on our hands, which is NOT good and does not help the town. If he was really a cop he would have realized this.

I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop(excluding the possibility of stupid gambits) and can’t rely on the “DOCTOR PROTECTED ME THAT’S WHY I DIDN’T DIE” argument.

So what you are saying is:

We should let the cop die? That’s pretty dumb…

You say I have a sure way to die, but that’s because you are asking the doctors not to protect me.

Basically this means that I am 100% going to die, why would this ever be good?

Not only that…

The whole point is, a decent mafia wont waste a kill on me, not now you’ve said that. You know why?

A) a good mafia doesn’t target a claimed cop because there is a bigger chance for doc protect.

AND B) because if they don’t shoot me, you’ve already said that you were going to lynch me, dealing with the mafia’s problem, meaning they don’t even have to shoot me for me to die especially now you’ve said your big strategy out loud.

All this has done is basically say “I want the cop to die, because I think he’s just a scum fakeclaiming cop.” but the way you are doing it, even though I’m the cop, I’m still going to die regardless of whether I am innocent or not.

For this reason, I am going to FoS Helltank for trying to get rid of the cop. That method is so flawed that it’s not even funny.

I think what he is trying to do here, is that he is a mafia, which means he knows I am town, so he’s actually trying to push through for this strategy for a simple reason: From his point of view that means that I am 100% a cop, but not only that, he thinks that if he can get the 100% mortality rate strategy through then actually he can spare a kill on me for the lynch tomorrow, everything he has suggested would actually benefit the mafia. Not only that, for his point of view, it actually means that tomorrow’s lynch would ALSO be a surefire lynch on a town, meaning two town deaths in a row.

He wouldn’t even look like a mafioso if he got away with it.

Voting Helltank because if he was thinking in the best nature of town, he would have at least tried to think of a strategy rather than just saying “Let’s all just let this guy die!”

This isn’t actually an OMGUS. For those who think I’m just trying to dress one up, take a hike.

On another note.

Fun fact: I’ve never lied a roleclaim on kongregate.

I claimed scarlet in bloodmist.

I claimed cop in a mafia a while ago.

I claimed ogre dad in Fantasy Mafia.

And I claimed as a jester in the TOMYHES.

In my mafioso play style, sure, I am pretty aggressive and risky, which fools people into thinking I am more likely to be town usually, but as a rule I never roleclaim as scum. The only times I’ve ever roleclaimed I’ve been subsequently lynched/killed within 1 day/night. This is the reason I don’t do it as mafia, because i know that I’ll come out worse than I went in.

 
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Funny how we are still in the signups, according to the title.

(Jask)

I’ll be able to counter it, though, if helltank is incapable of doing it, that is.

Lol. No thanks. I will wait for hell.

When did he mention their is a doc in the game?

I thought claiming Cop D1 was a dead giveaway that he thought there were Docs in the game.

What if it isn’t part of his gambit, have you even considered the possibility?

I am trying to consider it from all angles. If he was faking a town cop, he would have to think like a town cop so as not to get lynched insta. Right now, it seems like he thinks that there are town docs.

It is not necessary a person may play the same way as usual, how do you know this for sure?

It is an unnecessary risk, is what I think myself.

Therefore, I believe you are trying to bus on ocelot.

That’s an idea.

[FoS: Ocelot] for having 50% chance of being scum.

Unless we have third party roles over here, everyone has a 50% chance of being scum. I think I see what you mean, however.

To be put quite bluntly, no.

I see. So the RNG landed, quite fortuitously, on helltank?


(ocelot)

a good mafia doesn’t target a claimed cop because there is a bigger chance for doc protect.

That’s open to interpretation. As scum, I’d target a cop JIC, since the doc might be trying to make use of my mentality that “Docs protect cops”. You never know.

From his point of view that means that I am 100% a cop, but not only that, he thinks that if he can get the 100% mortality rate strategy through then actually he can spare a kill on me for the lynch tomorrow, everything he has suggested would actually benefit the mafia. Not only that, for his point of view, it actually means that tomorrow’s lynch would ALSO be a surefire lynch on a town, meaning two town deaths in a row.

I know that FYPOV you are cop, but FHPOV, you can be either cop or scum. If you are scum claiming cop, isn’t it obvious for him to want to lynch you at some point to ascertain that you are a cop so that we can believe your investigation results? Do you see what I am getting at? In a closed setup, it is entirely possible for you to be faking cop.

Fun fact:

Fun fact: You edited this bit in later. I don’t have a screenie or anything, but just a tip: careful with that.

I’ve never lied a roleclaim on kongregate.

As town. Town never has a reason to lie.

I will post more when I feel less sleepy.

 
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EBWOP: Ocelot, don’t forget my questions, please. I’d like some answers from you.

 
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RNG vote”: Jask

 
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I have some doubt about ocelot’s claim. I feel that there’s a pretty strong chance that ocelot’s a scum, either third-party or simply mafia. Like Adeeb said, ocelot might have gotten the knowledge that there is a doctor in the game. But seeing that this is a closed set-up, there’s the possibility that he can get that information without being a town.

Or perhaps ocelot’s trying to do some next level gambit that fakes the fact that there’s a doctor in the game when he doesn’t really know if there is one. Or maybe he just has a third-party role that fulfills his objective if he gets NK’d and such.

Helltank: I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop

Or maybe that he really is a cop and gets taken out of the game on the first night because of this stupid and unreliable tactic. Honestly, you sound more like a scum than ocelot just from posting that.

Vote Helltank

 
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This is why I am never good at these, I never good with keeping up.

Vote: Helltank
 
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Originally posted by Jaskaran2000:

[RNG vote: helltank]

Originally posted by ocelot:
Furthermore, if he is really a cop, the mafia will NK him first night so we’ve just got a dead cop on our hands, which is NOT good and does not help the town. If he was really a cop he would have realized this.

I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop(excluding the possibility of stupid gambits) and can’t rely on the “DOCTOR PROTECTED ME THAT’S WHY I DIDN’T DIE” argument.

So what you are saying is:

We should let the cop die? That’s pretty dumb…

You say I have a sure way to die, but that’s because you are asking the doctors not to protect me.

Basically this means that I am 100% going to die, why would this ever be good?

Not only that…

The whole point is, a decent mafia wont waste a kill on me, not now you’ve said that. You know why?

A) a good mafia doesn’t target a claimed cop because there is a bigger chance for doc protect.

AND B) because if they don’t shoot me, you’ve already said that you were going to lynch me, dealing with the mafia’s problem, meaning they don’t even have to shoot me for me to die especially now you’ve said your big strategy out loud.

All this has done is basically say “I want the cop to die, because I think he’s just a scum fakeclaiming cop.” but the way you are doing it, even though I’m the cop, I’m still going to die regardless of whether I am innocent or not.

For this reason, I am going to FoS Helltank for trying to get rid of the cop. That method is so flawed that it’s not even funny.

I think what he is trying to do here, is that he is a mafia, which means he knows I am town, so he’s actually trying to push through for this strategy for a simple reason: From his point of view that means that I am 100% a cop, but not only that, he thinks that if he can get the 100% mortality rate strategy through then actually he can spare a kill on me for the lynch tomorrow, everything he has suggested would actually benefit the mafia. Not only that, for his point of view, it actually means that tomorrow’s lynch would ALSO be a surefire lynch on a town, meaning two town deaths in a row.

He wouldn’t even look like a mafioso if he got away with it.

Voting Helltank because if he was thinking in the best nature of town, he would have at least tried to think of a strategy rather than just saying “Let’s all just let this guy die!”

This isn’t actually an OMGUS. For those who think I’m just trying to dress one up, take a hike.

On another note.

Fun fact: I’ve never lied a roleclaim on kongregate.

I claimed scarlet in bloodmist.

I claimed cop in a mafia a while ago.

I claimed ogre dad in Fantasy Mafia.

And I claimed as a jester in the TOMYHES.

In my mafioso play style, sure, I am pretty aggressive and risky, which fools people into thinking I am more likely to be town usually, but as a rule I never roleclaim as scum. The only times I’ve ever roleclaimed I’ve been subsequently lynched/killed within 1 day/night. This is the reason I don’t do it as mafia, because i know that I’ll come out worse than I went in.

Originally posted by CowFriend:

I have some doubt about ocelot’s claim. I feel that there’s a pretty strong chance that ocelot’s a scum, either third-party or simply mafia. Like Adeeb said, ocelot might have gotten the knowledge that there is a doctor in the game. But seeing that this is a closed set-up, there’s the possibility that he can get that information without being a town.

Or perhaps ocelot’s trying to do some next level gambit that fakes the fact that there’s a doctor in the game when he doesn’t really know if there is one. Or maybe he just has a third-party role that fulfills his objective if he gets NK’d and such.

Helltank: I will ask that doctors do not protect him N1 so if he’s not NKed N1 we can safely say that he is scum pretending to be cop

Or maybe that he really is a cop and gets taken out of the game on the first night because of this stupid and unreliable tactic. Honestly, you sound more like a scum than ocelot just from posting that.

Vote Helltank

Originally posted by FelineForumer:

This is why I am never good at these, I never good with keeping up.

Vote: Helltank


We gotz a bandwagon ovar here!
 
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I lied.

I’m not cop.

But I now know Helltank is scum anyway, I’m expecting people to vote on me now because everyone knows all liers are scum.

The reason for which i originally claimed cop became invalid with some PMs with Devourer. I f