GiTD #29 interest page 2

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People here can correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that the problem with uploading a GiTD to Kongregate is that it is too easy for it to get buried, never to be seen again. I uploaded my first GiTD before it was really very playable; when I finally get around to finishing it (it is at least in a playable state now), no one will see it (or, at best, a handful of people). Not that that particular game would ever be anything noticeable, but that is irrelevant, since games with potential that just aren’t “there” yet will suffer the same fate. Unless Kongregate will update our position (i.e., re-publish and remove the old one) when we “finalize” (distribution-ready, not necessarily actually the final version), it doesn’t seem like a desirable choice… It is possible for a game to get noticed from the archives, but much less likely, is it not? At that point, it seems more dis-incentive than incentive (to me, anyway).

Obviously, we could just upload a new version as a separate game, but that doesn’t seem very good for Kongregate (and our profiles will get cluttered with pre- and post-release projects)…

I had meant to upload (early but playable versions of) my past-deadline GiTD #29 games to fastSWF and post a link, but I made the mistake of playing Anti-Idle (=>shakes fist at Anti-Idle<= “Damn you, Anti-Idle!” =>stops, thinks for a moment, shakes fist at self<= “Damn you!!!”). I mention this in the hope that it will further encourage me (read: shame me) to post them soon.

 
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Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

To try to force some more quality stuff out and to encourage non-programmer feedback I might be suggesting that entries are uploaded to Kongregate instead of fastSWF (or both: Update-able one on Kong and a static, voting version on FastSWF).

To keep from cluttering Kongregate with rushed games, I suggest that we publish to Kong only if we want to. Personally, I would rather upload GiTD entries to fastSWF. If I ever come up with a more polished version of the game, only then will I want to publish it to Kong. I’d rather not be known as a dev than to be known as a bad dev. I know that a game on Kong can be updated later, but if the first version gets very low votes, later versions may be ignored because of those votes. First impressions last, as they say.

Just my $0.02.

 
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Maybe instead of giving away Kreds and t-shirts (etc), Kongregate (if they’re willing) could give first-place winners of GiTD instant badge/BoTD approval and second place winners instant badge approval? The games in question would need to be at a certain level, of course (I don’t think that would be a problem), and maybe the developer could have an extra week or so to finish up the game before the badges are applied? Just an idea for your/their/everyone’s consideration.

There should probably be an alternate prize (such as the Kreds, etc) if the developer would rather have that or can’t implement the API in time (or somehow the winning games don’t meet quality standard) or they don’t want to upload to Kongregate, in any case.

 
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Originally posted by dragon_of_celts:

Maybe instead of giving away Kreds and t-shirts (etc), Kongregate (if they’re willing) could give first-place winners of GiTD instant badge/BoTD approval and second place winners instant badge approval? The games in question would need to be at a certain level, of course (I don’t think that would be a problem), and maybe the developer could have an extra week or so to finish up the game before the badges are applied? Just an idea for your/their/everyone’s consideration.

That’s actually a horrible idea IMO. Badges shouldn’t be a price for some competition. Badges on Kongregate are something special because the users get to decide if a game gets them with their rating (yeah, feel free to start the MMO-discussion and everything), unlike other sites like NG where any dev could give his games any achievements. Because of that, achievement he wants. Achievements elsewhere don’t have that notion of quality (lots are broken and unobtainable, others are just designed badly) and they difficulty between different games varies a lot.

There’s nothing wrong with badging a GiTD-game, in fact it’s awesome, but only if its based on actual ratings and if it’s not a given or a price.

Originally posted by Elyzius:

To keep from cluttering Kongregate with rushed games, I suggest that we publish to Kong only if we want to. Personally, I would rather upload GiTD entries to fastSWF. If I ever come up with a more polished version of the game, only then will I want to publish it to Kong. I’d rather not be known as a dev than to be known as a bad dev. I know that a game on Kong can be updated later, but if the first version gets very low votes, later versions may be ignored because of those votes. First impressions last, as they say.

Just my $0.02.

Great post, pretty much summarizes my thoughts on this.

 
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Originally posted by Gama11:

That’s actually a horrible idea IMO. Badges shouldn’t be a price for some competition. Badges on Kongregate are something special because the users get to decide if a game gets them with their rating (yeah, feel free to start the MMO-discussion and everything), unlike other sites like NG where any dev could give his games any achievements. Because of that, achievement he wants.

Did you just magically divine why “I want achievements”? I’ll assume I’m misinterpreting you, but if that’s what you just did, you are so wrong. I was thinking that it would drive interest in the GiTDs, among non-developers in particular, which appeared to be desired.

After I woke up, I did realize it would be a bad idea, however, mostly due to potential abuse issues.

Originally posted by Elyzius:

First impressions last, as they say.

Except they don’t. I’m willing to wager that most people, like me, couldn’t tell you who made what game most of the time, except in extreme cases of consistently good or bad. I could be wrong. I agree with everything else you said, though.

 
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The blunt point: I’m not sure if Kongregate would be willing to provide prizes if most entries ended up on FastSWF as prototypes. They want, as do I, to spur completed games (though possibly small or perhaps alpha versions) from indie developers.

The problem with what Elyzius is saying is that it sounds great in words but doesn’t work out so great in practice. I’m not so sure that many devs (possibly, mostly the ones that have less finished prototypes) would finish their entry and upload to Kongregate.

 
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Despite my last suggestion bombing, I’ll venture some other suggestions (my apologies if these have already been discussed):
Is there (or will there be) a link to the GiTD voting thread on the front page? There should also be one on the games listing, I think (personally, I rarely visit the front page, I just go straight to the new games listing or the forums, so having a small link space above the listing (or in the side bar in a different colour or something) would be good, IMO)? Maybe also a link to past winners/runners-up of past GiTDs? Those should drive both developer and non-developer interest (as well as voting, potentially).

How about a “Recently Updated” sorting selection (which would include new games) in addition to the “Newest” sorting criteria. Too much potential for abuse, maybe?

 
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I’ll try to make this one. No more RPGs, though—I need to learn how to make “simple” games. D:

 
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How about a “Recently Updated” sorting selection (which would include new games) in addition to the “Newest” sorting criteria. Too much potential for abuse, maybe?

Could work if they limit it to a single bump every N days.

 
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Even still, I wouldn’t want to see a recently updated section. Even if the bump limit is every X days, that just means the more aggressive developers will wait X days to bump themselves. The recently updated section might work on FGL, but only because it’s a completely different type of website.

 
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Then maybe set a cap to bumps, so if a game is updated over… don’t know, 10 times, it stops showing up in the list.
If you’ve updated a game 10 times and noones knows it, there’s a good chance that it’ll never be popular. Also, that’d help to filter out idle “games” and tools such as the GDR or badge master which need to be constantly updated.
Although all systems will be abused, no mater what. There are many so called developers who spam a new “game” every couple of days, add a semi nude girl as the logo and get ~1,000 plays, then keep uploading games until they can cash in the ad revenue.



On the GiTD matter, it’d be nice if we invited more people, maybe from the FlashPunk and Flixel communities. It was nice to see so many games in the last contest.

 
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You should probably assume Kongregate cannot dedicate any developer time to creating a special GiTD section, or at the most doing something like it did for Ludum Dare, with a special category and at most a thread in some forums.

More entrants would be a good thing, so spreading to FlashPunk and Flixel communities is great. Maybe reddit, tigsource, fgl, and a few other communities. The more completed entries the better.

 
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LOL

Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

Ludum Dare

 
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Originally posted by alecz127:

LOL

Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

Ludum Dare

I’m not sure what you are laughing about. ;)

 
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Originally posted by UG:
Originally posted by alecz:

LOL

Originally posted by UG:

Ludum Dare


I’m not sure what you are laughing about. ;) this is an input from noahlac: yes u do

deep down u do, UG

 
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BE SCARED! I edited ur post MUHAHA!

 
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Alright, count me on in this one. I’ll try and get as much publicity for this as I can.

Unless anyone else thinks they can do it more professionally, I’ll advertise on sites like FGL, Newgrounds, ArmorGames. Also I’ll tell all the flash developer friends I have.

EDIT: Also here’s the wizard because I forgot him

 
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Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

The blunt point: I’m not sure if Kongregate would be willing to provide prizes if most entries ended up on FastSWF as prototypes. They want, as do I, to spur completed games (though possibly small or perhaps alpha versions) from indie developers.

The problem with what Elyzius is saying is that it sounds great in words but doesn’t work out so great in practice. I’m not so sure that many devs (possibly, mostly the ones that have less finished prototypes) would finish their entry and upload to Kongregate.

There needs to be a way of incentivising the completion and uploading of finished games to Kong, which were prototyped during GiTD.

I, myself, have not yet uploaded my recent GiTD game to Kongregate, mainly because I can’t draw a game background properly. But really, the game is pretty much finished. Just needs Kong API.

Perhaps there should be a condition to participation or at least prizes.
Make game in ten days
Have X amount of time to fix, polish, improve, then upload to Kong.

This shouldn’t be that detrimental to the contest really because the games that win, generally, will be the games that are more complete or at least more fun. Hence, the winning games shouldn’t be struggling to get their games onto Kong. And if the dev isn’t happy with their game and doesn’t want to continue development on it, generally, their game won’t be a winner, so it won’t matter.

Of course this could all backfire horribly if GiTD only has a 4 participants, and 3 don’t upload to Kong, someone’s going to win by default. But anyway, food for thought…

On the topic of winner gets badged, perhaps it could be similar, but not such a hard and fast rule. Something more like the winning game(s) are considered for badges.
But a section under game, tags and more, GiTD, would definitely help to boost the profile of the contest. But I don’t think you want to boost it too much, or you end up with hundreds of entries and loose the spirit of “all in good faith” competition.

 
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There needs to be a way of incentivising the completion and uploading of finished games to Kong, which were prototyped during GiTD.

You only qualify for the prize if you upload to Kongregate. There isn’t much else.

 
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Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

There needs to be a way of incentivising the completion and uploading of finished games to Kong, which were prototyped during GiTD.

You only qualify for the prize if you upload to Kongregate. There isn’t much else.

That’s pretty much what my long winded post came to in the end. But perhaps give people a week or two after the competition date (while the voting is taking place?) to do so.
Again, it could end badly if not enough people participate, but if the last contest is anything to go by, that shouldn’t be a problem.
 
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Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

You only qualify for the prize if you upload to Kongregate.

I need clarification. Suppose the winner of the next GiTD uploaded only on FastSwf. Can he upload the same version to Kong after voting ended to get his prize or is he screwed? And if he can, can he upload an upgraded version to Kong or does it have to be the version that was voted on?

More philosophically, are you counting on people not liking to see an unfinished game on their account to incite them to complete it or something? Because otherwise, it doesn’t seem like an incentive to upload a finished game at all. And I thought the goal was to get complete, quality games uploaded.

 
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How about you get extra votes for your game rating on kong?
For example you get extra vote for every 0,25 above 2,5 (total votes = votes + (rating – 2,5) * 0,25.
Or total votes = 80% votes + 20% rating.

 
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Yep, these are all problems that we have to deal with before the next round. It’s going to be complicated. If we go with Bobikas’ idea, that might be cool. Then we could say post a static version to FastSWF for judging and then a version you can keep updating on Kongregate as you get feedback. Then you get human votes based on the fastSWF version + rating votes (some system like Bobikas is describing) on the Kongregate version.

The reasoning behind not updating a game past the jam is so that everyone votes on the same game. They don’t vote on 2 versions of the game that could have major updates between them.

The goal is to get complete, quality games uploaded. Not to force people to upload what they got, but maybe to force people to make that complete, quality game.

 
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Another idea…

GiTD revisted:
After every x GiTD’s, the best games submitted during those contests (and uploaded to Kong) are compiled in a list to see:
-best game
-most improved over original GiTD entry
-highest Kong rating
-…whatever else?

I don’t know really…just an idea.

 
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Uh, if I’ve read correctly, we’re being forced to keep our GiTDs off Kong right? If this is true can we use something other than FastSWF (like MegaSWF for example)? FastSWF doesn’t seem to work on my browser.