Red Gems, Underrated.

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Every strategy I read, seems to favor yellow gems over red. I think this is silly, even if you’re doing triple damage with a yellow…it’s end damage is no where near that of red gems that have been properly fed.

I’m a non-premium, level 200, 3 crafting pylons in…and I’ve beaten every map with either a pure red or a red/lime combo.

For the red lime combo, I start off by combining two level 1s and then combining up with only red gems so that the lime is a background ability basically only to give dual gem mastery bonus. I’ll then do a ton of early summons to get my multipliers up and feed my red kill bonus(always use level 1 gems to summon it’s more efficient). Then late in the game after the red gem’s damage is ridiculous, combine all the red gems in your amplifier into 1 gem and start filling the amplifiers with lime to get your double attack bonus stacked.

I find this obliterates everything. I use armored waves not random like people suggest, the slow predictable mobs are easily manageable and will let you do silly things like send in 10 waves with summons on them at once…and kill them all.

I’ve played around with the yellow/lime combo everyone is so fond of…it does a lot of damage, it’ll kill a lot of things…but it does not compare to the red when used properly.

That’s my take on it, granted I haven’t finished the game yet, but the only time I’ve lost a match is when I’ve gotten a bit overzealous with the summoning and/or early waves.

 
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Note, I’m not a premium, perhaps with all that extra mana you have for combining the yellow gems can get better than red…but for a non-premium like myself, I really think this is a superior strategy.

 
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oh come on.
most of us are playing endurances, not the story-mode.
(go premium and) start to play endurances and you’ll see why we prefer yellow.
you’ll probably never beat endurance with red.

 
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I’m not paying money for a flash game that I’ll beat and forget existed until the next one comes out. You buy me premium and I’ll set out to see what I can do with a red gem in endurance mode with my early summon feed and switch strat.

 
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well, i think the real ‘beating’ means beating the hardest levels with hardest settings (took me 100+ hours of playtime to get to that point).

then, you can close the thread.

 
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Average flash gamer isn’t going to pay money, this thread isn’t for you then, go enjoy the many threads about premium strategy, or you’re of course welcome to buy me premium and I’ll redact this as appropriate.

 
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In short: you’ll not see big differences between red and yellow in the free-story-mode.
The difference starts to come at Grade9-10+, and becomes tremendous at Grade20.

 
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Premium is only $5, well worth it when compared to what you would pay for games from a retailer.
Red gems are probably the best to use if you only want to complete story mode. They are what I used to complete the game. But they are quite difficult to use for endurance, even if you plan it out fairly well.
High level yellow gems end up doing billions of damage a hit though, so even if you kill hundreds of thousands of minions with one red gem and it has a high multiplier, the boost you get from the kills is pretty minor when compared to what you get from lime or yellow.

Actually, you don’t need premium to do endurance, just go to any pylon level and try to make it to wave 1337. You’ll have to be careful not to charge the pylon, but you can accomplish this by:
A) Only using traps (or otherwise keeping the pylon out of range. For the last level, it should be easy to keep one pylon out of range until your gem gets to a fairly high level)
B) Keeping monsters in range by summoning frequently and angering lots
C) When monsters fall out of range, swap your gem out until they get in range

 
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Guy(s), there are plenty of threads to flame about premium and about premium-flaming, so I haven’t a clue why you bring it up here. You’re sounding like spoiled rich kids picking on the poor kid for not having designer clothes. So let’s stick to the topic?

Khepera, you mentioned you’re just past 3rd pylon? Later on it gets tougher and you’ll get to like yellow more, most likely. Yellow benefits from higher wizard level and higher amounts of waves as you’ll grow bigger gems that way. Also, resonance doesn’t help red that much, as far as I know, quickly “halving” your damage compared to any other source. Let’s check some values; my resonance is at 71, which gives a 108% boost (other relevant skills maxed, no premium). Basic idea:
- I take the average base dmg of a yellow and a red gem of a certain grade (red seems to have slightly higher base damage)
- I multiply the yellow dmg by its multiplier (so 71% for 2x damage would give a x1.71 multiplier)
- Then take off the red base damage
- Then divide by the red kill/damage ratio (so 55% kills to damage becomes /0.55)

- No amps were used. As far as I know, they would favor yellow (dmg gets multiplied). I used towers (80% dmg penalty is rather painful, doubt anyone would try that with yellow, though red could benefit) .

Grade – Kills needed for equal damage
06 – 341
07 – 753
08 – 1,453
09 – 3,835
10 – 7,308
11 – 13,908
12 – 26,644
13 – 51,841
14 – 101,264
15 – 198,439
16 – 390,149

Of course this would vary a bit based on your resonance and the actual damage gems get is slightly randomized, but you probably get the idea. 10,000 kills is reasonable enough if you summon a lot, but around grade 11/12, Red gets swamped. 390k kills at grade 16 seems very unlikely to me, and it seems to double every grade at that point. You can probably guess what difference it would be at grade 30 :). Which I do reach in quite a few levels if I push the limits, without premium.

If you’re using pure red, likely you’ll be increasing your lime part soon. Which will help a lot. If I’d compare pure red to Y/L, the numbers would be even more extreme, since lime again multiplies the result. Didn’t add that since I felt most would add lime to Red anyway, so that’d cancel eachother out. On higher levels with enough summoning, lime will easily be worth it. Y/R/L (about 50/25/25 ratio) is worth considering as well.

As for armored vs random: armored is easier in itself and better base multiplier. But Random gives giant waves and you can restart until you have a nice pack of four giant waves in your initial 13 waves (usually among wave 6-13). With heavy summoning (a hundred or so is a nice start), those hopefully will get you the grade 12+ tower and manafarm you need for ridiculous scores :).

Finally, the stats of a G36 Y/L gem, amped with G32 Yellow gems with minor lime. Lime was severely surpressed in the main gem since it wouldn’t find thousands of targets anyway:
Damage: 128,592,815 – 768,483,149
Yelow bonus: 23,866x damage
Lime bonus: 127x chain
About 3 trillion damage per hit, hitting up to 127 targets each shot. Not sure how much red’s bonus would be at that level, but I’m sure it would take a rather big amount of kills :). Just to give an impression.

 
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There are some extreme examples and some more realistic (and non-Premium) examples here:
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/76-gemcraft-labyrinth/topics/162533-point-of-bloodbound-gem?page=3

Look for Gremlion’s posts. He’s got screenshots of a G50 Yellow and a G50 Red side-by-side, and a G29 Y/L/P (with P component squashed out) against a G29 Y/L/R (with an active R component).

For that G50 Red to do the same average damage as the G50 Yellow, it would need 8.8 × 10^16 kills, or 88 quadrillion kills. That G29 Y/L/R would need about 3 million kills to make up for the lowered strength of the Yellow component (the multiple damage is 600 lower).

Further down, you’ll find a post by superxchloe with a G8 R/L and a G8 L/Y without any Premium settings. The number of kills needed for that dual R/L to match the damage of that L/Y is 8920, which typically comes only after massive angering.

In short, once you get into high grade gems or Endurance/long Pylon run territory, Yellow will outperform Red.

 
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Originally posted by Khepera:

Note, I’m not a premium, perhaps with all that extra mana you have for combining the yellow gems can get better than red…but for a non-premium like myself, I really think this is a superior strategy.

(grade 1-4)
yellow>purple>red>orange=lime>cyan=blue>green
(grade 5-7)
yellow>purple=red=orange=lime>cyan>blue>green
(grade 8-9)
yellow>orange>lime>red>purple>cyan=blue>green
(grade 10-11)
yellow=orange>lime>purple>cyan>red>blue>green

those results are what i think, no premium

 
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Khepera. At triple damage the yellow will start to come close to the red. But you don’t stop there, yellow increases exponentially with gem grade so you see multipliers in the hundreds or thousands. Add to that the fact that when you max wild gem and sell it your gems will start at grade 7 and you should see why red stops beeing interesting.

 
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red/yellow

 
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i cleared most every map with one red/yellow gem. Then i beat a giants only endurance without banishing one monster when i mixed a supergem with a level 20 lime

 
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I’m sure it CAN be done that way. It’s just less efficient. I could probably beat every map with green gems, but why would I :P. I’ve put down the kills needed for red to be equal to yellow; lime would be pretty close to that, and getting 700 kills before you can upgrade? Even on random waves that sounds unlikely, let alone giants-only. So logically red-yellow wouldn’t really beat yellow-lime EXCEPT when you’re low level (and particularly, before you max wildgem). Any starting player should like red for quite some time because it is very good then; most players who support Y/L/x are at higher levels.
Now try endurance at full settings ;). Giants-only would just make it easier imo. Try seeing what red offers around grade 30 ;).

 
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Well,if you choose red/lime, I guess you will get extra damage instead of 10000x damage… :)
red/lime/yellow is clearly best

 
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Originally posted by thelolofdeath:

Well,if you choose red/lime, I guess you will get extra damage instead of 10000x damage… :)
red/lime/yellow is clearly best

Like it has been said, the minute difference red adds on makes no difference after grade 12 or so. An extra few thousand makes almost no difference.

 
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To quote myself from another post:

G12 LYR gem, about equal parts, but in that order:
Minimum damage: 8408, 70% chance to hit 5 targets
Maximum damage: 31426, same multiple target chance
38% of total kills goes to damage
G12 YLR gem, with the red component squished:
Minimum damage: 10940, 97% chance to hit 5 targets
Maximum damage: 34980, same multiple target change
2% of total kills goes to damage
→ The LYR gem needs 6663 kills to catch up to the minimum damage of the YLR with red squished.

 
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so what about a gem with 15000 kills?

 
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how long does it take you to get to 15000 kills? a couple hundred waves? By then you could have a G25 L/Y/X with the x squished and have way more crit than red would give in an equally balanced RLY gem.

 
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Well much faster than that chloe :) I can get to 200k kills in 60 waves or so (then again, that takes a few hours). 15k would probably be about 30 waves in my routine, that’s just an educated guess though.

At that point my main gems would be around grade 21/22. However that is on random waves; giant only would give more mana per kill, thus a bigger gem with the same kill count. Even if we assume grade 20, it would be unlikely that 15k kills would be much of an influence. After that, kills may rise fast, but so does gem grade – around g36 by the time I have 200k kills, and even a million ‘red’ bonus damage would be nothing at that point.

 
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Originally posted by omegareaper7:
Originally posted by thelolofdeath:

Well,if you choose red/lime, I guess you will get extra damage instead of 10000x damage… :)
red/lime/yellow is clearly best

Like it has been said, the minute difference red adds on makes no difference after grade 12 or so. An extra few thousand makes almost no difference.

I mean small red…. almost squished out

 
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i agree red/lime/yellow is best red is stacking up dmg witch boosts the effect of the extra damage from the yellow wich makes lime extra effective and gets kills better wich gives the red a better boost wich helps yellow wich helps lime wich helps red and it goes is a infinate loop

 
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Left – final gem, which i will use to finish hardest settings endurance.
Right – gem for comparison.
Red component in gem lowers crit multiplication by 600!
If you want from red negligible that difference – you need ~3000000 kills. Just no.

 
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those are also pretty small red and lime components. With a balanced gem, the L/Y/R would be even worse.