Red Gems, Underrated. page 3

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Originally posted by Barclin:

I still dont see the point in having a red gem with 0 kills. if you were playing red, you would be focusing on racking up kills. what you guys are doing is comparing some make believe high level gem with 0 kills with yellow which gets its full benefit upfront.

red should help yellow since it obviously adds base damage which makes the crit much better. but you just want to sit and look at how bad a red gem is because your stats are showing 0 gain.

if you want to do the nerd thing then do it half ass right. atleast get the minimum number of kills it takes to get a gem that high.

OK. Red got ALL kills, needed to get that high grade.(you could see it at wave stones)

pure red average damage:1270
pure yellow average damage:3785
red-yellow dual:3071
got it?

 
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angering with all grade 1 gems isn’t best.
red gems FAIL(and yes, without premium).
comparing with 0 kills is so you can see the minimum number of kills needed, which is needed.
level 107, almost at G7, see how much red fails. NOTE:not all maps let you get 8 amps around a tower. E8 only allows 6, G7 only allows 4.(yep, bump)

 
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for the pure red to do as much average damage it would need 7545 kills, just so you can’t complain about it still not having kills. Cold hard stats, showing the absurb number of kills that reds need to scale with yellow.

 
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Originally posted by Khepera:

Note, I’m not a premium, perhaps with all that extra mana you have for combining the yellow gems can get better than red…but for a non-premium like myself, I really think this is a superior strategy.

I know i’m bumping,but here’s my $0.02.
It’s a question.
Would you rather have a gem that has 5k damage and does 10x the damage per attack and hits 10 monsters per shot,
a gem that has 10k damage and gains it with kills,
a gem that has 7.5k damage,hits 10 targets,and gains damage with kills,
or a gem that has 7.5k damage,gains it with kills,and does 10x the damage? I’d rather have the first.

 
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Fine, messed around a little bit thinking of an interesting challenge, but I just hate managing kills for red. Too many creeps on map at a time, etc… Here’s some pics for lolz

‘Normal’ endurance I’d be killing with the mana gem (which has to be kept low so it doesn’t kill, which means you have to anger them to have so many hp)… It’s just awful, not to mention I’d usually have a grade 22 lime/or/yellow doing the killing and mana farming at this point too (used a g16 at this point lime/orange for mana).

Really, I’d rather complete an endurance with poison kills.

Anyway, radiance bonus is 750%. Redistributing those skill points to mana gain wouldn’t help that much off the top of my head, but might be enough to be manageable (easier to have mana farm not kill them at least).

I’m still in the just no camp, because it’s so annoying to make sure that gem gets as many kills as possible. There’s enough tedium already without adding more :)

 
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And YOL for both?

 
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Originally posted by Gremlion:
Originally posted by Barclin:

I still dont see the point in having a red gem with 0 kills. if you were playing red, you would be focusing on racking up kills. what you guys are doing is comparing some make believe high level gem with 0 kills with yellow which gets its full benefit upfront.

red should help yellow since it obviously adds base damage which makes the crit much better. but you just want to sit and look at how bad a red gem is because your stats are showing 0 gain.

if you want to do the nerd thing then do it half ass right. atleast get the minimum number of kills it takes to get a gem that high.

OK. Red got ALL kills, needed to get that high grade.(you could see it at wave stones)

pure red average damage:1270
pure yellow average damage:3785
red-yellow dual:3071
got it?

Why does a grade 8 gem only have 33%? Wouldn’t you be putting kills/amplifiers with it?

 
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bcuz the gems he compares it with arent surrounded by amps either. ofc you can increase the %, but that doesnt matter pure theoretically, if you’re just comparing, and i think that if you go with the amps, longterm wise the yellow gem will soon outrun the red one. x500.000 dmg is hard to get with a red gem i think

 
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common sense, where are you?
Stronger gem(yellow) with stronger gems in amplifiers(yellows) will be stronger than weak gem(red) with weak gems in amplifiers(red).

grade 8 + 8*grade 6
Yellow gem average damage ~22700
Red gem average damage ~5150

 
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You can achieve huge numbers of kills with red gems by summoning.

 
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In case someone still missed the point:
Red is good only for beginners, under x2 Yellow.
x3 Yellow is a winner already, under any conditions.
You’d need thousands of kills to raise Red at the same rate as what Yellow gets just by upping it one grade.
In the above example, you’d need at least 7k kills on the Red to make those gems somewhat equal.
Actually MUCH more.
And by upping them just one grade, you’d need a few thousands more.
Have some common sense, will you? :D

 
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Originally posted by somebody613:
In the above example, you’d need at least 7k kills on the Red to make those gems somewhat equal.
Actually MUCH more.

(22700-5150)/1.35(conversion rate) = 13000 kills. (hardest settings endurance have around 15-20k monsters)
In this game I scored ~50 kills and already have enough mana for 12+ grade gem (possible to see near the yellow tab – 317.005/ xxxxxxx mana)

 
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Originally posted by Gremlion:

common sense, where are you?
Stronger gem(yellow) with stronger gems in amplifiers(yellows) will be stronger than weak gem(red) with weak gems in amplifiers(red).

grade 8 + 8*grade 6
Yellow gem average damage ~22700
Red gem average damage ~5150

the red HAS NO KILLS YET of course its going to be weak your including yellows spec but completely removing reds

 
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fml.

You can count it yourself.
Add 10000 kills for red
135% kills to damage = 13500 damage
15748 minimum damage – 21540 maximum damage.

Yellow:
11185 minimum damage – 34220 maximum damage.

After f*cking TEN THOUSANDS KILLS red still weaker than Yellow.

 
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I’m a bit curious about one thing: when does the red bonus kill damage kick in? Is it added as the last addition to the gem damage, or before it’s multiplied by the yellow and any other bonus? It’s not a big difference, but it still could be useful for a few more low grades at the beginning.

I mean if we have a RY gem with a base damage of, let’s say, 1k , 100% kill to damage and a x5 crit, after 1k kills would it equal a pure yellow(with the same 1k base damage) of x6 or x10 crit?

Personally I only use yellow-lime-orange(1 g1 orange) in tower+amps and orange-lime-yellow(mostly orange, some lime and 1 g1yellow) in trap+amps on Endurance anyways…

 
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Before multiplier. So, x10.

 
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Hmmm…
So for non-farming gems, we could use a small addition of Red to the combo of less-Lime and more-Yellow.
But it wouldn’t be THAT noticeable anyways…
When the final damage reaches millions, with a multiplier of around 100 – thus basic damage being 10k or so, Red is pretty useless.
It wouldn’t make a noticeable difference to have 1.000.000 or 1.100.000 damage…
Cause it’s far from being 1-to-1 in Red, rather around 5-to-1 at best, maybe as bad as 20-to-1…
Remember, Red is a small addition, not the main color.

 
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What about orange?

 
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Originally posted by almos:

In short: you’ll not see big differences between red and yellow in the free-story-mode.
The difference starts to come at Grade9-10+, and becomes tremendous at Grade20.

I got G10 even at 2nd-3rd epic

 
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ooo boy.

red is quartic at best. L/Y is exponential, and that’s that.
Lets assume that every wave we get to anger with one more gem, of (roughly) 1 higher grade.
such that the monsters released per wave is thus 4*Wave^2.

The total kills, then, is very roughly given by wave^3. It’s not quite this, but it’s only off by a factor that becomes more and more insignificat as time goes on.

Lets give the red gem an absurd 1 damage per kill*wave number. This would be tantamount to upgrading the red special by 100% EVERY WAVE (an absurd assumption, but it still falls short in the long run).
so now we have a gem who’s damage is given by wave^4. that’s wave to the fourth power.

BUT HP INCREASE IS EXPONENTIAL! (actually, it’s given by quadratic or cubic exponential, as we’re maintaining our increase in angering. It looks like 1.07^(wave^2.5) or so. Insanely fast.
So the ridiculous red gem just lost in the long run.

At wave 1000, the gem has 1,000,000,000 damage. 1 billion damage.
It sounds good, right?

But wait. 100000% of kills to damage. even if we changed red to have a full 100% boost to red per grade instead of more like 10-20%/grade at best, that’s still…
grade 1000. grade 1000. can you make a grade 1000? I don’t think so. I could come to a similar conclusion using 100 waves instead of 1000, but 1000 waves just makes sure all the little terms can be ignored.

The point is, at high waves+grades, red starts stripping too much power from the lime and yellow specials LONG before you can actually see the red component.

point is, red is lovely at first because it’s has such a fast cubic/quartic growth, but it’s still sluggish compared to the exponential you need in the long run.
have fun.

 
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Red is terrible for high-grade late-game farming.

The purpose of Red is for situations where you don’t want to spend much on the gem. A grade 1 red gem can become vastly more powerful than a grade 1 yellow gem (and this is true even if the red gem isn’t getting every last kill — just getting, say, half your kills or even a third or something will still make it pretty powerful compared to its mana cost.)

But red gems gain far far less from raising their grade, so if you’re going to make a grade 10 gem, you don’t want it to be red — that’s a waste. The amount of mana you’re spending is not even remotely worth the relatively small increase to damage (compared to the massive amount yellow gains simply from having a higher grade.)

What you want to do is carefully raise a relatively low-grade red so it contribute a lot of damage with minimal mana investment, then have a hide-grade yellow (or whatever) behind it to catch anything that it can’t kill.

In the very late game, red just falls apart, because the number of kills isn’t increasing fast enough and its percentage multiple isn’t enough to keep it relevant. But even in the normal game, you don’t want to spend a lot of mana increasing the level of your red gems — it’s a waste when they’re going to increase in damage automatically anyway.

 
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In reply to first post: level 200! what am I doing wrong! I’ve done 134/169 fields and I’m still only at level 70…

 
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@anonymous_me, have you gone back and played all your earlier maps with tougher settings?