Don't Do This

Why does everyone seem to think “idea guy” is a job? In fact, people have no qualms about throwing that term around and seem proud to declare themselves as one. 2/3 of the new topics on this board take the form “Hi this is my first post, I’m 13 and I have no design experience but here’s a vague idea for a game. Who wants to do the programming and art?”

Could everyone just, you know, stop that? The kid who posts it gets disappointed, the regulars encourage him to learn for himself, and nobody gets anything done. How many people here are actually artists, animators, composers, editors, or (most importantly) programmers?

I ask because I don’t think it’s for lack of talent that this forum sees so little collaboration. The constant influx of would-be project managers is a thumbing-of-the-nose at developers. When they’re encouraged to get their hands dirty, they give up, and that’s even more disappointing.

What WOULD make the forum more effective at clumping developers and getting team projects started?

Penny for your thoughts

Case studies:

This hurts to read.
“Hi, teach me everything.”
“Do all the work for me.”
At least this one is polite. Still a case of “I know nothing about development. Who wants to make it for me?”

And lemme just quickly point out that nothing is wrong with the OP’s in question, jokers though they may be. I’m pointing this out because it impedes the forum.

Title says it all.
This is a double whammy. OP AND interested parties want to be ‘idea guy’.

These threads are entirely typical of the forum (all are currently on the first page). I have openly criticized them here to encourage some progressive thought; how do we get people actually producing something rather than asking each other to do it for them?

The primary function of this forum at the moment is to stop these people coming into the programming section and making those kinds of threads there.

Although I laughed out loud whne I read one of those threads you linked to earlier, I don’t think it’s fair to call anyone out specifically. What you’re missing is that for that 12 year old with the amazing ideas – this is something to get excited about, and then it comes to actually getting any work done and it turns out its not actually al lthat easy. The ones who are gently pointed in the right direction, of leanring some skills themselves rather than expecting anyone else to do the work for them, are the ones most likely to actually have a real try at makin something. And even though most of the teams here never actually make any games, having somenoe else there to work wit them and support them is far more of a motivator to keep trying. For most teams here it doesn’t matter if they never finish anything at all, its a first step towards working with someone else, looking into how to get started programming, and so on. The team with 2 half finished projects has still done better than the guy who never posts, never tries to start anything, and never learns any programming at all.

Its also much better that peopel are open about thefact that they don’t necessarily know how to do a whole lot. You can make your choice on whether to work with them or not based on that… it isnt like it affects you other than the few bytes of bandwidth you used to read a thread.

Well, its messing up the forums a bit. Makes it harder to find a good collab for the people that are serious and are willing to learn.
It also scares talented people away, cause it looks like a playroom.

But i agree, noobs have to start somewhere, but the collabs could use a restructuring.
See this thread: http://www.kongregate.com/forums/8-collaborations/topics/65020-collabs-noob-pro-relationship-and-my-solution

maybe kongregate should make a second collabs forum for people that have actually created a game? that would weed out a couple of the “idea people”. only problem is, some of them will post a game with a couple of buttons and crappy animations just to get into the forum.

I for one actually take game design seriously. I’ve designed a number of games, mostly just quick Flash games, but one I’ve been working on for a number of years is an RPG on the scale of console games. There is a right way to design a game, and there is a wrong way to design a game. Google “game design,” and you should be able to find the “right” way.

@legacycf Thats a great idea. Make it so that they need a score above 3 to post in higher level collab forums.

Or better yet, how about it displays their highest rated games rating next to the thread. 3 is awfully steep really, 2 or 2.5 would be a good enough limit.

Originally posted by Supersausagedog:

Or better yet, how about it displays their highest rated games rating next to the thread. 3 is awfully steep really, 2 or 2.5 would be a good enough limit.

Originally posted by Capucchi:

@legacycf Thats a great idea. Make it so that they need a score above 3 to post in higher level collab forums.

someone should start a petition or something.

I feel the games that some people post are NOT an accurate representation of their skills. In fact, I’ve seen plenty of “pro” programmers who haven’t posted a single game(or if they have, it is terrible) and yet they know way more than I do(programming for 1 year in total and have learned quite a bit of 3 different languages).

Anyways this topic brought this one (Tips for a successful collaboration) thread to my memory XD. Its basically a summary of why writers and idea guys are useless. They forgot to include voice actors, another pointless job since 99% of games do not need and/or do not have them.

The game rating thing wouldn’t be to show your’e skill at programming, but your’e skill at games development.

Originally posted by Supersausagedog:

The game rating thing wouldn’t be to show your’e skill at programming, but your’e skill at games development.

maybe kongregate should put up a test like: “in 5 lines or less, write a code that does such and such.” or even “what does addEventListener() do?” XD

Originally posted by legacycf:

Originally posted by Supersausagedog:

The game rating thing wouldn’t be to show your’e skill at programming, but your’e skill at games development.

maybe kongregate should put up a test like: “in 5 lines or less, write a code that does such and such.” or even “what does addEventListener() do?” XD

an idea guy is important or you end up with 2 hours without anything to shake it up

Originally posted by sargentGuy:

Originally posted by legacycf:

Originally posted by Supersausagedog:

The game rating thing wouldn’t be to show your’e skill at programming, but your’e skill at games development.

maybe kongregate should put up a test like: “in 5 lines or less, write a code that does such and such.” or even “what does addEventListener() do?” XD

an idea guy is important or you end up with 2 hours without anything to shake it up

sure, but an “idea guy” is more likely to be a crucial part of the team if they actually have some skill they can use in the development of the game.

Originally posted by legacycf:

Originally posted by sargentGuy:

Originally posted by legacycf:

Originally posted by Supersausagedog:

The game rating thing wouldn’t be to show your’e skill at programming, but your’e skill at games development.

maybe kongregate should put up a test like: “in 5 lines or less, write a code that does such and such.” or even “what does addEventListener() do?” XD

an idea guy is important or you end up with 2 hours without anything to shake it up

sure, but an “idea guy” is more likely to be a crucial part of the team if they actually have some skill they can use in the development of the game.

i guees you have to rely on the others skills

Originally posted by virror:

Well, its messing up the forums a bit. Makes it harder to find a good collab for the people that are serious and are willing to learn.

It also scares talented people away, cause it looks like a playroom.

Yeah. That, exactly. It doesn’t harm ME when new kids post, but it sure doesn’t encourage me to look here for work. It speaks for the thoughtfulness of the forum that everyone seems to have thought about this (I fully expected to get flamed by prepubescent ‘idea guys’).


Preliminary tests for posters would be unfair. Sure, I like the idea of needing to know Actionscript or whatever. But what about graphic artists, composers, and performers? As legacycf pointed out, people will just bullshit whatever test it is to get in. Actually reputable project managers may be discouraged from posting here because of it. I’ve been using AS for a long time, but the games I have put on Kong are nothing to pee your pants about (I made one of them in one sitting). Age requirement would be an improvement; most of the people garbageing things up are very young. But it’s unfair to say 13 year-olds can’t be good artists or programmers (I’m sure there are some), and plenty of adults are complete morons.

The forums need to stay open, free, and simple to join. Our respect and attention, however, don’t have to be free. They shouldn’t be.

What we can do is completely ignore anyone who posts crap like this. A sticky won’t make a difference; the average schmo doesn’t read those. And I’m all for encouraging young blood to work hard and learn their own way…
*Original poster: “Hi, I’m 14 and I’m downloading the trial version of Flash. I have never programmed anything in my life and this is my first post here. I need people to program and animate my game, for which I have fully thought out 1 ambiguous sentence.”
*Helpful regular: “You should learn AS for yourself. [links to tutorials and resources]”
*Original poster: “lol nvm”
*Kid 2: “I’ll be your idea guy.”
*Original poster: “ok Kid 2, let’s get to work”
*[Nothing is made]
… this just wastes everyone’s time. We need some tough love.

This forum could use an active moderator; not to uphold Kongregate’s PG-rated code of conduct, but to try and keep the local IQ above 85, you know? Anyone who posts a project proposal better include some sort of resume, have a design doc, present concrete ideas (or, god FORBID, a playable version); if they don’t act like they belong in a forum of real developers, lock the thread and let the newbie know why. We need to start cracking down on people with dumbass requests.

Originally posted by JDCAce:

I for one actually take game design seriously. I’ve designed a number of games, mostly just quick Flash games, but one I’ve been working on for a number of years is an RPG on the scale of console games. There is a right way to design a game, and there is a wrong way to design a game. Google “game design,” and you should be able to find the “right” way.

I’m into the traditional structure of it (design docs, and specific team roles). If the “right way” includes “knowing anything about development before you start”, I agree. What new members post here every day does not.

A while ago I mentioned an idea here. Along with the Art and Music areas there should be a Programming section in the Collabs. Programmers without a full game could submit small demonstration swfs (and code) to it, such as a nice particle effect or a physics demo or just anything they are proud of really. These would be rated and commented on the same way as the Art and Music submissions are, which would allow the people starting projects here to be able to choose a good programmer even if they know nothing of programming themselves.

The above threads linked by others contain useful advice.

This one kind of requires that you have any idea what you’re doing. Stickying this would be like giving cavemen blueprints to build a car; we need to make sure they all have the wheel figured out first. Granted, the debate is strung with valuable tips, but it flickers out to become an argument about whether writers are useful, peppered with people posting code blocks in an attempt to seem professional.

This is nice. Dezerango want to grab newbies and purposefully mold them into skillful programmers. But I think it’s idyllic. It’s too much work for the already experienced, and it teaches the newbies that just asking someone to do something for them will get it done. It’s spoiling, and I don’t think we should spare the rod. I’m going to have to take a social-Darwinian approach to the situation: if young up-and-comers aren’t willing to grab the bull by the balls and really work to learn a skill on their own, we should leave them in the dust.

Cruel? Effective?

Originally posted by Ringer:

The above threads linked by others contain useful advice.

This one kind of requires that you have any idea what you’re doing. Stickying this would be like giving cavemen blueprints to build a car; we need to make sure they all have the wheel figured out first. Granted, the debate is strung with valuable tips, but it flickers out to become an argument about whether writers are useful, peppered with people posting code blocks in an attempt to seem professional.

This is nice. Dezerango want to grab newbies and purposefully mold them into skillful programmers. But I think it’s idyllic. It’s too much work for the already experienced, and it teaches the newbies that just asking someone to do something for them will get it done. It’s spoiling, and I don’t think we should spare the rod. I’m going to have to take a social-Darwinian approach to the situation: if young up-and-comers aren’t willing to grab the bull by the balls and really work to learn a skill on their own, we should leave them in the dust.

Cruel? Effective?

i dont think we should just leave them. cause believe it or not you were once like them when you first started. maybe not exactly but probably close.

Originally posted by Moly:

A while ago I mentioned an idea here. Along with the Art and Music areas there should be a Programming section in the Collabs. Programmers without a full game could submit small demonstration swfs (and code) to it…

I suspect more boards will only stratify the problem. But some sort of simulation, preliminary game, resume, design doc, or concept art should be a prerequisite for posting any sort of collab request.

Originally posted by legacycf:

i dont think we should just leave them. cause believe it or not you were once like them when you first started. maybe not exactly but probably close.

Ad hominem! Even if I was, it doesn’t make my argument less valid.

But, to protect my esteem: no, I didn’t go on forums with this crap. I started with graphic design, 3-D modeling, animation, and Actionscript. THEN I began joining dev communities like this. The attention we give the inexperienced should be limited to “well go learn it!”

And no, playing video games every day doesn’t count as industry experience.

You may really have not meant me, but you may have meant to say that “if we don’t help anyone, there will be no developers in the future”. In fact, I think the opposite is true; the less often we give a hand, the harder it is to learn skills salient to development. Thus, the ones who do learn will be the more skilled individuals. The population of future developers may be smaller, but it’s higher-quality! This is pedagogical natural selection: think about the American “no fish left behind” program and the effect it’s had on the elementary classroom. If everyone stops to help, we’re only as fast as the slowest fish.

Originally posted by UnknownGuardian:

I feel the games that some people post are NOT an accurate representation of their skills. In fact, I’ve seen plenty of “pro” programmers who haven’t posted a single game(or if they have, it is terrible) and yet they know way more than I do(programming for 1 year in total and have learned quite a bit of 3 different languages).

Just wanna point out I agree with this guy. When a new guy posts, though, there are plenty of other ways for him to prove he’s not a complete moron. Show us design docs, pictures, sims, playables!

And JESUS man, it never ends.

“i need someone to make a game i dont know how”
“I NEED A WEB DESIEGHNER 2”
“I can’t make games myself”
“i need a team. the name will be slasher”

For the last time… we’re not going to make it for you. Learn actionscript, draw graphics, and bring your own ideas to life.

Although I did work throug tutorials etc first, one of the first posts I mde on another forum was along the lines of “how do I make [this type of game]?” The reply I got was helpful because I was trying to maker things far more complciated than they ever needed to be. If I’d been left to work out how to make it all by myself, i’d never have managed to make any games. A lot of new programmers, me included, struggle to relate tutorials to the specific thing that they want to make; you can tell someone that a loop cycles through every instance of whatever, but its meaningless to them until you also show them how it can make their own project that little bit easier to work with.