TWS Penalized

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Just for the record, I’ve penalized TWS 50,000 points this week for alt abuse on the Battles leaderboards. Let the whining and Lance Armstrong jokes commence.

 
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Is there any way to track down who fought with whom? I’d like to see who is responsible for this.

I just copy pasted some recent battles from The productive crew players (didn’t checked all of them):

SASP (Lvl 550) defeated faerzress (Lvl 503)
faerzress (Lvl 503) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
faerzress (Lvl 503) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
faerzress (Lvl 503) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
faerzress (Lvl 503) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)

lcoholicEPManiac (Lvl 230) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
AlcoholicEPManiac (Lvl 230) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
AlcoholicEPManiac (Lvl 230) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
AlcoholicEPManiac (Lvl 230) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
AlcoholicEPManiac (Lvl 230) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)

futima (Lvl 329) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
futima (Lvl 329) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
futima (Lvl 329) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
futima (Lvl 329) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
futima (Lvl 329) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)

tommyt125 (Lvl 300) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
tommyt125 (Lvl 300) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
tommyt125 (Lvl 300) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
tommyt125 (Lvl 300) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)
tommyt125 (Lvl 300) defeated agneskus (Lvl 138)

Do u still find this to be fair?

 
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*Thumbs up :D

 
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I’m not going to say who was responsible. That’s for the guild to sort out and deal with if they want. I will say that they obviously tested what the limits of abuse were and went beyond them. There was a rule limiting levels lower than 20 from attacking high level players so you can’t create low level alts and give your guild wins. They leveled their alts to 20 to get around the rule. I increased the level for that rule to 50. They added low level alts to the guild so they could use hundreds of additional low level alts to attack and lose to the new guildies. Just not the kind of behavior you can allow in a game of this sort.

 
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the system still flawed, atm a lv 50+ alts can do whatever they want. Before lv 20 alts. So right now who played the game longer who have raised an alt for longer period can do whatever they want. I don’t see this rules coming but it was there suddenly.
Good time bad time Nek0, they got a good time we have a bad time, which happen when a guy snapped his nerf. Well yes feeling demotivated, time to invest kred in another game.

 
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This has been done by individuals from start with the time to invest in creating alts and developing them. When done by an individual to level their hero and high level alts it can be viewed as an alternative way for players without plat to invest time in the game to advance. As such is it unfair or cheating any more so than players who throw money at the game? As far as a guild using it, guilds were created for cooperative play. Perhaps a base guild code of honor is in order.

 
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people also loose battles to there champs to get on the boards isnt this the exact same thing ?

 
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That way I called it flawed, so now if someone making lv 50+ alts, and someone whined bout this, the rules change again. And those investment of time u just said is being tampered. I’am not saying the alt method is so righteous or so, but we need a ground rules here.

 
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Like i said before in suggestion thread, if there was 50 levels limit for attacking higher leveled players like for champions there won’t be something like this happening.

 
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I increased the level for that rule to 50. They added low level alts to the guild so they could use hundreds of additional low level alts to attack and lose to the new guildies. Just not the kind of behavior you can allow in a game of this sort. neko this post renders yours mute.
personaly i thin this was long over due

 
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It’s the same idea, just different methods of execution. I am not saying that it is right, but I would feel better if it was not only TWS being punished for behaviour both TPC and TWS has shown. I would also like to add that you should add written(!) ground rules for this game, instead of enforcing justice for random acts of “violation” of unspoken rules because someone cried about it.

 
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instead of insults and crying about the penalty, i think TWS should consider them selves lucky they didnt get striped from the honor list all together, since their cheaters ways got them most of their honor. I know this since i was with them for a while shortly after they formed, and know for a fact that they have been using the alt army to boost up their pvp stats and secure 1st place for weeks. I have to point to umarmd and turin the leaders of the guild as the people who brought this cheating system to the game, so others dont get insulted and feel unfairly accused.

 
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Here’s my view. A lot of games don’t allow alt abuse and there are repercussions if it’s found to have been used. It’s called boosting and it’s something that can even get you banned in some games.

As far as penalising both TWS and TPC, the point has been made that TWS “tested what the limits of abuse were and went beyond them” (quote from TheRealJackBlood’s post) by adding lower level guild members so that those alts below level50 could be used to attack them instead. The difference here is how far TWS went to get around the rule.

While I agree that something needed to be done, and i’m happy to see that something has been done, I do also feel that a warning could have been given before points were deducted to give TWS chance to change their ways. If such behaviour continued then a points deduction would have followed. However, it is not for me to decide what the punishment is. That’s the developers decision.

That being said, it was only a matter of time before something happened to stop alt abuse and hopefully it’ll make the game more accessible to newer players and newer guilds as it will be about who has the better and more active players rather than who has the most alt suicide accounts.

 
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Sorry for my misunderstanding. Despite of it, I would like to make another suggestions.
1.) Add some kind of suicide protection, which would activate (restrict player from attacking higher levels) after loosing adequate number of battles to higher leveled players. This would reduce score per alt significantly. Normal players should not even notice it, since no one want to lose stamina for nothing.

2.) Another solution would be deletion of battle button from profile dialog. Like this PvP player selection would be matter of randomness. This one is kinda radical, but will work for 100%.

To sum up: no matter how you look at it it’s still a game bug. Not functional but logical, if you want players to behave according some rules you have to hard code it (IP resolution should do the trick, i doubt there are ppl with more than 3PCs :p ).

 
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I was planning on staying away from this matter … and yet I find myself posting here for some uncontrollable desire I guess.

First off, I second most of what Estra posted above.

I do also want to say that Mosh’s actions (though I understand I do not stand in his shoes and thus can’t see fully what he sees) were much too sudden and severe from what I had expected (and by expected I mean not this specific case per say but in general about alts usage as has been discussed before as well). And I agree all players should be subject to equal repercussions across guild fences.

That said, I would indeed admit, I have in the past found myself posting on TPC’s noteboards, frustrated about alts usage. I think alts for boosting should not be a part of the game. Most games consider ‘boosting’, ‘feeding’ and similar things as immoral / illegal. And those of us who spend effort trying to up our pvp score (trust me, with stats and gear like mine, its not easy to manage a decent score), are left with no way to compete against alts since it becomes a competition between a guild of 50 vs a guild of many more.

(and tip .. boosting is different from what you are saying… finding an easy target to beat using the stam of a member of the guild .. by no ways should be considered abuse of alts … however, having alts outside of the guild attack members inside using ‘free’ stam is what most peoples’ concerns were about).

While I agree with your sentiments Nek0.. I feel slightly differently about the manner. It is almost always impossible to enforce IP restrictions / code changes locking abuses etc in such games. (eg, point number 2 can be worked around through rivals system, dynamic IP addressing messing with the IP restriction idea.. if only it was possible to do MAC ID restrictions :D). The only manner of implementing it without fail is by keeping a rule of conduct and taking action when breaches are reported. But yes, I do agree the game lacked the mention of a code of conduct till now.

Also, I am a non-casher, and I still think it is absurd to compare cashing to alt usage… Almost every game discourages alt usage in one or another form, but none discourage cashing… there is a reason to it.

I do hope this issue passes / gets resolved somehow magically with everyone staying respectful as well as no-one feeling more cheated than the others :)

 
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A few points I’d like to make. One is that using alts isn’t the only way of stretching the limits of the game and most know of what I am talking about and engage in it. Personally, I never saw using alts as particularly that bad, why is investing time cheating but investing money isn.t, other than the developers do not benefit of course. Certainly takes less skill to through money at this thing, not that very much skill is required. Obviously my opinion is in the minority, but if there are other transgressions can it please be made very clear so there is not any confusion. I would like to add my apology to all as it appears to have upset many and for that I do apologize on behalf of all of TWS. I would like to respond to ikob’s accusation of my responsability in this matter. Perhaps people should find out facts before making such statements as not only did I not encourage this, on several occasions I have mentioned to certain players that they are going much to far with it. As I said, I knew of it but did not engage in it. Secondly, that was very ignorant mososh to add the comment about whining and Lance Armstrong jokes. That was not necessary. All you need do is impose your penalty and be done with it.

 
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Originally posted by ikob:

instead of insults and crying about the penalty, i think TWS should consider them selves lucky they didnt get striped from the honor list all together, since their cheaters ways got them most of their honor. I know this since i was with them for a while shortly after they formed, and know for a fact that they have been using the alt army to boost up their pvp stats and secure 1st place for weeks. I have to point to umarmd and turin the leaders of the guild as the people who brought this cheating system to the game, so others dont get insulted and feel unfairly accused.

You have 2 guesses of ikob’s current guild. Well, 2 guesses on mine. You’ll see my point clearly now.

I’m suspicious of all this. Guess when this happened? TPC has been on top of both lists for like forever, and TWS is a real threat to them. TWS has been #1 weekly in PvP for a while, but this happens after TWS started to push stam raids and be ahead of TPC in raids too (see weekly raid kills for proof). This could’ve happened a lot sooner, when TPC is still threatened. But this happens when TPC’s #1 status is clearly no more. Very interesting timing here, and yet, no other guild was even thought of for this.

TPC’s MO is to spend a few hundred $s per member and be at the top. TWS says that’s not necessary, and they have been proven right. And now, TPC has gone to the dev to try to get their top spot back. They’re clearly willing to do everything to not be #2. I want to know they’re next move in advance.

Oh, is arch enemy an alt of any other TPC? Doesn’t seem like the typical TPC, and yet he’s in the guild. (ie. I outeverything him and he has no top gear)

Originally posted by mososh:

Just for the record, I’ve penalized TWS 50,000 points this week for alt abuse on the Battles leaderboards. Let the whining and Lance Armstrong jokes commence.

Originally posted by TheRealJackBlood:

I’m not going to say who was responsible. That’s for the guild to sort out and deal with if they want. I will say that they obviously tested what the limits of abuse were and went beyond them. There was a rule limiting levels lower than 20 from attacking high level players so you can’t create low level alts and give your guild wins. They leveled their alts to 20 to get around the rule. I increased the level for that rule to 50. They added low level alts to the guild so they could use hundreds of additional low level alts to attack and lose to the new guildies. Just not the kind of behavior you can allow in a game of this sort.

For mososh: your next move on this may make this very interesting.

 
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As a point of order for a more peaceful future for this game, better rules as suggested, and also, if you intend to punish someone severly, how about a warning. Nothing was said to us in advance stating that you felt this was against the rules of the game. We will take our lumps and yes we deserve it, but for everyone’s sake, broadcast rules and issue warnings, not just kneejerk reactions.

 
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Originally posted by ikob:

instead of insults and crying about the penalty, i think TWS should consider them selves lucky they didnt get striped from the honor list all together, since their cheaters ways got them most of their honor. I know this since i was with them for a while shortly after they formed, and know for a fact that they have been using the alt army to boost up their pvp stats and secure 1st place for weeks. I have to point to umarmd and turin the leaders of the guild as the people who brought this cheating system to the game, so others dont get insulted and feel unfairly accused.

Dear Ikob, let me make it very clear this system was brought in game by TPC and we observed it but didn’t complained to devloper.In several ocassion I have seen doing it by TPC.

 
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I full agree with TurinTurumbar, Please set a proper guideline so it would be easy for everyone understand the rule and play peace fully.Let me ask you few thing:

1.Is there anywhere mentioned that one cannot use alts to raise guilds pvp point, If will be using will be penalized for 50,000 pvp points?

2.If one is going out of limit then what is the limit?

Need you comments mososh

 
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Marine, I’m going to make something quite clear here. You say about how TPC’s MO is to spend money to be at the top. You seem to forget one thing. I was in TWS before I was in TPC. I have not spent anywhere near as much money on the game while i’ve been in TPC as I did in TWS. Most of us with the higher scores in TPC don’t need to spend money to get those scores and most of the rest of us just plain don’t want to spend money on the game (see anupams post).

As for no other guild being threatened with action. May I once again point out that it was because TWS “tested what the limits of abuse were and went beyond them” (quote once again from TheRealJackBlood’s post).
This is referring to the fact that there was action taken to reduce alt abuse by raising a cap to stop below level 50 alts attacking your guild members. If it had been left there it would have been fine.

Problem was that some members of TWS (no idea who, but it must have involved at least one of Umar, Turin or Sazh cos they needed to accept the applications into the guild) then took it upon themselves to let low level alts into the guild so that these alts could attack them instead.
That’s deliberately going above and beyond to circumvent a rule created to reduce alt abuse, and as such, is what got TWS penalized.

As far as the #1 spot was concerned I was lined up for a good race to #1 PVP spot this weekend so there was still a chance for us to get that as we were keeping the scores close so to say that it was done just to avoid us losing both spots is not really a fair point.

Besides, a counter argument could be used here cos TWS used alt-bashing to keep their #1 PVP spot for a long time. There’s a lot of complaining going on now that they won’t have their unbeaten record. Works both ways in that respect.

My conclusion stays the same as it did before.
I agree that something needed to be done.
I believe a warning could have been handed out before such action was taken but that’s not for us to decide.
And I agree that the rules need straightening out to make it clear for everyone.

I do also think that now it is done there is no point in going on about it anymore cos it won’t change what happened. It’s time to wait for the rules to be straightened out and just get on with playing.

 
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Well said Estragion! I re-read the entire thread this morning and had a number of comments to add just before Estragion’s latest post.

Instead, I would rather take the liberty of seconding his suggestion that “It’s time to wait for the rules to be straightened out and just get on with playing.”

 
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Think this topic needs to be put to bed… people are just going to keep arguing without the developers actually responding to the topic.
Both guilds have abused the system, the one which did it worse and for longer was punished without warning. Which we all agree is harsh, but even so if you do something against the rules anywhere else in life its rare to get a warning. Alt abuse isn’t allowed therefore punishment was bound to occur eventually. The reason why it happened this week instead of the other weeks i don’t know. But i would imagine it is because when we weren’t winning raids and doubling TPC’s battle score they were fussed as they had raids, once it looks like your going to top both you can’t really fault the other guild for complaining, once others are complaining directly to Mosh he has to take action on the matter, i’m guessing that’s what has occurred here. One thing we should all be thankful for was we lost quite a bit of time and effort, instead of our guild leaders and officers being kicked, as most games punish the individual not the guild for these matters.
In terms of opinions on the whole alt abuse thing, we are all going to have different opinions. I can’t decide whether i’m against it or not, as Turin said its investing time instead of money. Its a difficult line when you can boost yourself with cash, which i’ve never seen legally in a game before, the games i’ve played alt abuse and buying the in-game currency are both illegal. I imagine that’s why a lot of us won’t purchase plat as well.

But i’m ranting, the point i want to put across is same as everyone else, there clearly needs to be a big mop up on the rules. Additionally there needs to be an area where these rules are published in game, thus far i don’t know anywhere other than in the battle menu that actually mentions alt abuse and that’s to do with challenges, which is way to vague.
The other are i want screened is the champion’s board, i hate the fact Zodiac sit 6+ members are the top of that board everyweek. Again i’m not sure if they are breaking the rules or are working in the perimeter of gamesmanship, as i don’t know anything in the rules to say we can’t all go as a guild and suicide on our champions. Now i’ve had my say i can stop being drawn to this thread! And go back to my general i don’t really give a flying f attitude!
Bring on the battle for #1 pvp guild next week!!!!

 
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Respect to TD’s post, and to Turin’s as well.

 
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In the spirit of trying to just get on with things I would like to point out the great work that TWS’s raiders have put in this week. I may not like the fact that the merger with FH helped but fair play to the raiders. They worked hard and have taken the top spot as a result. Hopefully we can at least try and close the gap this weekend :P

Also, apologies to those who were involved or caught up in my outburst in chat a couple of nights ago.

Some of you wouldn’t have known but I have had a hell of a bad time over these past few months (hence the lack of activity) and I let a lot of rage and upset boil over about something that I wouldn’t normally rage about.

Well done to TWS on the raids and once again, sorry for the outburst, and bring on next week :P