> *Originally posted by **[Magmardooom](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=11#posts-9676211):*** > > Have you done any math to determine rough potential compared to current long-term builds? Today, with 1e61 starting gems I made 2e62 gems after 15 hours using Cialis. My calculations proved that production grows by T^2.8 and gems grow by T^1.4 which implies that Id need about 500 years to get to R15. (Although I didn’t take undead heritage, angelic determination, or R10 bonus into consideration) > > I’m hoping expanse has a better chance… Territorial Expanse gains with normal time due to not switching into a production phase, Strong Currency and Battlehammers scale (relatively poorly) with Lightning Strikes, and Angelic Determination on top of the Bloodline and CS/BD in the other builds gives Expanse a P = a t^4.85 relationship (ignoring Undead Heritage (not fair) and R10’s production bonus over time (fair, affects other builds equally)). Compare with Cialis’ P = a t^3.6 x [however long you run production phase for, likely 1h]. Like Cialis, it drops a single upgrade on mana stuff. **Can you guys check if you agree with me about including time ticking by on Expanse but not on Cialis for raising the exponent? – rbreiten pointed out in chat I can integrate because I know the power of t that is in the formula, so I’m doing that** Reinvesting capital gains roughly cancels with the difference between Drow and Angel Bloodlines – assuming you can get as much as 10% extra buildings from reinvesting, might actually favour Drowline if you can stop after a few hours before starting a really long run. Using mana instead of Demonic Presence pretty much exactly cancels with using mana instead of Titan Obelisk. Territorial Expanse at 30 assistants instead of using Pyramids as the main producer with Dwarven Ale is about a 0.66x multiplier (i.e. you lose a third of production). Spell casting frequency is 1 Combo Strike per 124s instead of 1 per 21s, and all spells is 1 per 15.5s instead of 1 per 20s. - Angelic Determination = (20/15.5)^.8 = 1.23x better - Combo Strike/Blade Dance are (20/124)^1.8 = 0.037 = 27x worse - Production phase (assumes Cialis doesn’t cast extra spells unless Pyramid hit = ((900/20\*10 + 3100/20)/11)/124 = 0.44 = 2.25x worse Titan Obelisk compared to Elven Luck: Assume 20s overlap time on Cialis (I’m just about getting that at the end of R12 when I start the other spells halfway through CtA), clicking 30/s, buildings = 15% of production, and Expanse has more production time per combo due to TCs, so (7500\*.01\*30) \* .15 \* (20/136) = 49.6x multiplier. Titan Obelisk = 2.25\*1930/100+1 = 44x multiplier – Expanse/Cialis = 0.88 = 1.12x worse Total multiplier difference = 0.66 \* 1.23 \* 0.88 \* 0.44 \* 0.13 = 0.041 = 24.5x worse at the start, then integration factor is another 4.85x reduction Looking at the relationship between Lightning Strikes and the improvements to Strong Currency and Battlehammers, after around 10 days of Trackless Expanse this is getting a t^0.25 relationship. Plugging all the numbers in to the spreadsheet I’m keeping (updating Cialis for my improved combo time now I have a higher building count, as is assumed above, and Cialis only needing one hour of prep time with Expanse resetting Drowline after 2h, and assuming Strong Currency and Battlehammers gain with t^.25) gives **Trackless Expanse is better than Cialis (with a 1h perfectly played actively managed production phase) after 122h**. Note: Undead Heritage will be higher by this point, so it’s actually slightly less time than this. So basically, if you’re leaving for more than 4-5 days and are happy to leave your computer on (please turn the screen off), you should run Trackless Expanse for production reasons as well as for the risk reasons (in case of crashes/reboots). A big part of this is that **Elven Luck is getting pretty crappy** with R-power and Gifts boosting assistants and click rewards and FC chances (which boosts click rewards), as well as the reworking of Undead Heritage to give more assistants over time.

I’ve tested a bunch of builds over a few days and Drowcenaries were the best I hit on. Your results may vary.

Hard to compare, since Cialis assumes active play, growing only Combo Strike before taking active control while Expanse assumes constant growth on everything with no control. Combo Strike Lightning Strike Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies Dwarf (1,1): Dwarven Ale Angel (1,2): Angelic Determination Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strength Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence Faceless (2,1): Gold Synthesis Druid (2,2): Earthly Bond Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers Elves (3,3): Ancient Clicking Arts Druid (3,3): Building Jungle Drow (3,3): Blade Dance Harlequin Bonus: 729% // 343% Bloodline : Angel // Drow Working from theoreticals here, the aim of Cialis is to hit 40 mana/s. Assuming 12.8 from 2e6 clicks, and R14 is 6.5 mana, +4 base, that’s 26.9 mana/s, and a need for 11.4 mana/s needed. 0.5 from GotH means Trade Lords to hit 40 mana/s has to be 10.9 mana. 100 casts at 3.6e6 is that 12.8 mana. 42.7 mana/s. 100 casts gives 7647% Strong Currency and 8208% Battlehammers. We’ll assume they won’t be doing much after their setup. After this point we’ll assume these are more or less fixed. It will take 7.31 hours to get another 3.6e6 through assistants, a week gives 8.274e7. Trackless Expanse meanwhile buggered around for a bit casting Lightning Strikes and generally setting up to a similar point, we’ll assume, to compensate for its lower base mana gain, that it doesn’t touch Combo Strike until Cialis has cast its 100 lightning strikes, that both builds start with Baseline 2k due to severe OCD on both sides, and that Cialis will come back at the end of the week without breaking Angelic Bloodline somehow, or significantly changing their building count. So over a week at 40+ mana/s, Cialis casts 30,240 Combo Strikes. +100 Lightning Strikes is: Angelic Determination: 5,777% Combo Strike: 431,105% Blade Dance: 129,332% Strong Currency: ~7647% Battlehammers: ~8208% Angeline = 302400% Mining Prodigies = x1 Duplicate. Dwarven Ale = 2152% (Baseline 2k) Cyclopean Strength = x1 Duplicate. Both sides are assumed to have equal HoLs and 37 assistants (Undead Heritage). Gold Sythesis = x1 Duplicate. Both sides are assumed to have equal Alchemist Labs. Demonic Presence = 23082 assumed buildings, 4,616.4% Building Jungle = 2030 Pyramids = 3,552.5% That’s a unique 247,745,517,258,739,717,155.18180326874, or **x2.4775e20** Unique Production Multiplier, assuming Angelic Bloodline doesn’t conk out (I forgot Harlequin so I’ll include that in Expanse) Meanwhile: Because we assume Expanse works on mana first as well for the same 2500ish seconds, let’s assume it’s going to take a bit of time to ramp up. 11 base mana before multipliers becomes 20.8 after the first Lightning Strike, aka 24. Assuming mana is constant between orders of magnitude for simplicity, that’s 800/24 × 9 seconds for the next nine, 300 seconds. 9.8 from Trade Lords becomes 11.3, so 1.5 quicker. 800/25.7 × 90 = 2801 for 100 casts, for 23.8 base mana, for 27.4 mana/s after multipliers. 3100 seconds is around 10 minutes after my very loose ballpark for Cialis, so let’s assume that’s a wash and say this is the start point. After this point, it will be combo casting. 2700 mana for the combo to active is doable with Baseline 2k with 4 mana left over, and mana gain gives five Tax Collections and 52 mana at the close of the combo, so 3200 between cast cycles. That’s 117 between combos, and 9 spells in that time. 117 \* 900 = 105300 seconds for 1000 Lightning Strikes. That’s 29.25 hours gives Trade Lords 14.3 mana/s, 29.2 mana/s total, 900 Combo Strikes, 8200 spells. Now since we won’t hit another order of magnitude, and we won’t get another Tax Collection in our simplified calculations, that’s 4269 more combos for the week. That’s a total of 46621 spells, 5169 Combo Strikes, and 1.86e10 FCs. Angelic Determination = 8146% Strong Currency = 13,222% Battlehammers = 15,048% Combo Strike = 87,927% Blade Dance = 26,378% Drowline = 604,800% Territorial Expanse = 37 assistants x50 x 0.79% = ~ x15.615. We’ll ignore extra buildings as a pain in the arse. Overgrowth = (Assuming a 30k building prep build), 3053%. Titan Obelisk = 4087.9% adjusted. Building Jungle = 3629.5% based on 2074 baseline Labyrinths. Harlequin = 4.43/8.29 = 964,083,808,583,525,120,515.56171265127 Unique production multiplier, or **9.64e20**. Now at the 1 week mark, Cialis: 2.4775e20 with 5891 max mana and 42.7 mana/s takes 3100 mana to start up, and 18 Tax Collections, for 560 seconds of production every 157 seconds. Expanse’s 9.64e20 at the week mark gets 30.49 (I guess 30.4?) mana/s at this point, giving it another Tax Collection each automated combo for 3300 mana. That’s 200 seconds of production every 109 seconds. x1.44 frequency, so 288 effective seconds over 157. That means just about twice as many spells per combo, so: **tl;dr** After a week: Cialis with no buying power = 4.955e+20 No extra Labyrinths Trackless Expanse = 9.64e20

> *Originally posted by **[Kholai](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9676578):*** > > **tl;dr** > > After a week: > > Cialis with no buying power = 4.955e+20 > No extra Labyrinths Trackless Expanse = 9.64e20 Sweet – we’re within 25% of each other with two completely different methodologies, so I figure that’s the same conclusion: If you’re going on holiday and want to leave the computer on – use Trackless Expanse.

I know it’s almost impossible that u read that post, daniewe, but… I have two things to tell u 1st. THANKS for all these mercenary builds (specially the mana-rama, that will help me to get that 50M mana I need) 2nd. Are u pretty sure the best bloodline is druid. Demon bloodline gives a lot of mana too Both druid or demon bloodlines are good options, everything depends on the amount of trophies unlocked and your max amount of mana (based on the max amount of buildings u can purchease) Perhaps the best option is “EXPORT SAVE”, and then test both bloodlines and see which one give u more mana regen

> *Originally posted by **[Abraxxas848d](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9676899):*** > > I know it’s almost impossible that u read that post, daniewe, but… I have two things to tell u > > 1st. THANKS for all these mercenary builds (specially the mana-rama, that will help me to get that 50M mana I need) > > 2nd. Are u pretty sure the best bloodline is druid. Demon bloodline gives a lot of mana too > > Both druid or demon bloodlines are good options, everything depends on the amount of trophies unlocked and your max amount of mana (based on the max amount of buildings u can purchease) > > Perhaps the best option is “EXPORT SAVE”, and then test both bloodlines and see which one give u more mana regen Mana-rama will have quite a lot of mana regen, and Druid should give 30%-45% more mana regen. At 30% Druid bloodline and 31 mana per second Demon (so almost every trophy unlocked) you need 103 mana per second for Druid to outclass. At 45%, Druid needs 69 mana per second to outclass. It should be better than Demon almost every time.

Wouldn’t a Good build be better for pure mana regen, especially for 50m?

guys i’ve been playing with labyrinth in neutral mercs until r11 how is pyrastrike better than the same build with labyrinths?

Hi guys, what build would you suggest to me? I’m at R11, 20 Spd. A long way to 1Nod. Can’t even remember how I got to 1Ocd in R10. :D

Evil Cialis Note that it is probably not as good as the neutral one, but if like me you need diabolical evil and lunacy/fartstrike isn’t cuting it for you, you might want to try that. Spells: Combo Strike Hellfire Blast Bloodline: Angel Requirement: 39 mana/s after setup (with r13, 3M clicks and 5 Ocd gems (5e57), I got 39.4) Tier 1: Strong currency Evil Conquerors Deadened Muscles Mining Prodigies Tier 2: Demonic Presence Cyclopean Strenght Overgrowth Blood Sacrifices Tier 3: Ancient Clicking Arts Elven Luck (Building Jungle if no autoclicker) Infernal Magic Blade Dance

> *Originally posted by **[akram107](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9677504):*** > > guys i’ve been playing with labyrinth in neutral mercs until r11 how is pyrastrike better than the same build with labyrinths? Without going to into too much detail into a difference I already demonstrated in the other thread, Labyrinth builds suffer from: 1: Pyrastrike gets Demon Bloodline in Tier 2, Labystrike is forced to double up on Faceless upgrades. This is both a smaller bonus and a loss of Harlequin. 2: Labystrike, by design, has to use Territorial Expanse in T1. Labyrinths at default production get around x8-x9 your total production, half the bonus from the worst Pyrastrike upgrade in the tier, and a third Faceless upgrade, which drops Harlequin even lower. It’s the best non-Pyramid short run strike build (only around half pyramid production, which is much better than the alternatives), but generally getting more mileage out of assistant upgrades can’t compensate for three different production penalties.

> *Originally posted by **[Kholai](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9678330):*** > > *Originally posted by **[akram107](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9677504):*** > > > > guys i’ve been playing with labyrinth in neutral mercs until r11 how is pyrastrike better than the same build with labyrinths? > > Without going to into too much detail into a difference I already demonstrated in the other thread, Labyrinth builds suffer from: > > 1: Pyrastrike gets ~~Demon Bloodline~~ **Demonic Presence** in Tier 2, Labystrike is forced to double up on Faceless upgrades. This is both a smaller bonus and a loss of Harlequin. > > 2: Labystrike, by design, has to use Territorial Expanse in T1. Labyrinths at default production get around x8-x9 your total production, half the bonus from the worst Pyrastrike upgrade in the tier, and a third Faceless upgrade, which drops Harlequin even lower. > > It’s the best non-Pyramid short run strike build (only around half pyramid production, which is much better than the alternatives), but generally getting more mileage out of assistant upgrades can’t compensate for three different production penalties.

> *Originally posted by **[Edenlight](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9678253):*** > > Evil Cialis > > Note that it is probably not as good as the neutral one, but if like me you need diabolical evil and lunacy/fartstrike isn’t cuting it for you, you might want to try that. > > Spells: > Combo Strike > Hellfire Blast > > Bloodline: Angel > > Requirement: 39 mana/s after setup (with r13, 3M clicks and 5 Ocd gems (5e57), I got 39.4) > > Tier 1: > Strong currency > Evil Conquerors > Deadened Muscles > Mining Prodigies > > Tier 2: > Demonic Presence > Cyclopean Strenght > Overgrowth > Blood Sacrifices > > Tier 3: > Ancient Clicking Arts > Elven Luck (Building Jungle if no autoclicker) > Infernal Magic > Blade Dance Have you considered running Brainwave? If you can slip in a production multiplier for even one of those mana upgrades (say, Building Jungle for ACA), you’ll get a higher Harlequin and an x35+ production multiplier, which will more than compensate for Brainwave vs. Hellfire Blast. If you swap both out for production multipliers this should compensate both for the slower combo strike, and since you’ll have at most a 33 second downtime if you get unlucky with Brainwave syncs at 11.5 mana/s it may be worth the sacrifice.

No, I haven’t, I’m probably gonna try that next run, but with 1 less upgrade though, cause if I understood correctly, 33 seconds of downtime would represent 11 minutes of Angeline gone? So unless I misunderstood or messed up my calculation (entierly possible), I think it’s too dangerous. Thoughts?

> *Originally posted by **[chrean](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9678252):*** > > Hi guys, > > what build would you suggest to me? I’m at R11, 20 Spd. A long way to 1Nod. > Can’t even remember how I got to 1Ocd in R10. :D I got to 1 Nod yesterday and it took me a while. In the end this is the build I’ve used: Faction: Neutral Spells: Lightning Strike, Diamond Pickaxe T1: Strong currency, Mining Prodigies, Oversized Legends, Sylvan Treasure Frills T2: Cyclopean Strength, Demonic Presence, Earthly Bond, Overgrowth T3: Swarm of Fairies, Professional Assassins, Battlehammers, Building Jungle (I actually used Rainbow Link here, which turns out to be suboptimal) Bloodline: Drow. The build is simple, build everything you can (at the beginning wait for full mana, wait until LS hits Pyramids and activate combo). After one or two hours – go full idle. With about 250 Ocd gems it took me 21h to go to 1.2 Nod, and that was good enough for me. If you like, you can change the bloodline to Titan for a shorter run.

> *Originally posted by **[Edenlight](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9678395):*** > > No, I haven’t, I’m probably gonna try that next run, but with 1 less upgrade though, cause if I understood correctly, 33 seconds of downtime would represent 11 minutes of Angeline gone? So unless I misunderstood or messed up my calculation (entierly possible), I think it’s too dangerous. Thoughts? Aye, it’s entirely possible for a bad overlap to lose you 660 seconds worth of progression. Generally, however, it shouldn’t ever be that bad. Start with casting Brainwave down to 0 mana, assume absolute zero interaction. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. 69.6 seconds later: Cast Combo Strike. At this point you have 43.2 seconds of Brainwave remaining and 0 mana, meaning you’ll end at 496.8 mana (or slightly more). This means 9.22 seconds of downtime per combo, meaning a net gain of 208% per brainwave. At that point the question is if two x20-x30 multipliers are worth 2/3 speed progression Angeline and ~1/4 speed progression Combo Strike.

Ok, thanks for the detailed answer, I’m gonna try that as well and will tell which of the 3 evil cialis I feel works best!

The listed Pyrastrike Plus build (which is just Pyrastrike with Angel bloodline) is demonstrably inferior to Pyrastrike with Drow BL, since Earthly Bonds lets you Priority cast all 5 spells and you don’t need any clicks in Pyrastrike (your assistants are 100% of your bonus). I do highly recommend Pyradrow for overnight runs – I have yet to find a build which can compete with it over the 12-16 hour timespan I have overnight.

> *Originally posted by **[quindraco](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9678948):*** > > The listed Pyrastrike Plus build (which is just Pyrastrike with Angel bloodline) is demonstrably inferior to Pyrastrike with Drow BL, since Earthly Bonds lets you Priority cast all 5 spells and you don’t need any clicks in Pyrastrike (your assistants are 100% of your bonus). I do highly recommend Pyradrow for overnight runs – I have yet to find a build which can compete with it over the 12-16 hour timespan I have overnight. I agree 100% – that’s the most efficient way for me to get gems (currently early R12), although I tend to pick Swarm of Fairies instead of Rainbow Link.

I finally gave in and looked at this list.. and I was looking at pyrastrike.. and at least at 6DD gems, swarm of fairies seems to have higher returns than rainbow link.. due to synergy with cyclopean strength, and assistant trade union. I was at 6.246 DD gems, and after buying all other upgrades I save tested it, and I got 281spvg/s with swarm, and 272spvg/s with rainbow link. I’m thinking link might pull away as gems increase, but then again there is natural DR that affects it since it’s at such a high number, so am curious exactly when it becomes more optimal than swarm of fairies.

I have this prototype idle build I would like you guys to pick apart and probably trash completely. (No better way to learn) **Lucky Strike** I call it. Range : R12+ Alignment: Neutral Spells: Lightning Strike Moon Blessing (Requires Sun Blessing) Tier 1: Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency Titan (1,1): Colossal Forge Dwarf (1,1): Dwarven Ale Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies Tier 2: Angel (2,2): Angelic Wisdom _at around 2600-2700 max mana, otherwise_ Druid (2,2) Earthly Bond Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strength Faceless (2,3): Overgrowth or Faceless (2,1): Gold Synthesis Tier 3: Fairy (3,2): Rainbow Link Elf (3,2): Elven Luck Druid (3,3): Building Jungle Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers _Harlequin Bonus_ : 729% Bloodline : Drow _Instructions: Build up your stuff with Lightning Strike and hope for a quick Pyramid hit. Then just let it run. (Contingency 100% Lightning Strike, Moon Blessing and Call to Arms Priority casting, Gem Grinder Planned casting)_

> *Originally posted by **[Trunkkis](/forums/8945/topics/535779?page=12#posts-9679004):*** > > I have this prototype idle build I would like you guys to pick apart and probably trash completely. (No better way to learn) > > Lucky Strike I call it. (R12+) > > Alignment: > Neutral > Spells: > Lightning Strike > Moon Blessing (Requires Sun Blessing) > Tier 1: > Goblin (1,1): Strong Currency > Titan (1,1): Colossal Forge > Dwarf (1,1): Dwarven Ale > Dwarf (1,3): Mining Prodigies > Tier 2: > Angel (2,2): Angelic Wisdom (to get quad spell combo) > Demon (2,3): Demonic Presence > Titan (2,3): Cyclopean Strenght > Faceless (2,3): Overgrowth or Faceless 2,1: Gold Synthesis > Tier 3: > Fairy (3,2): Rainbow Link > Elf (3,2): Elven Luck > Druid (3,3): ~~Overgrowth~~ **typo, Druid (3,3) is called building jungle if I’m not mistaken. Well, the one that gives 1.75% per building** > Dwarf (3,1): Battlehammers > Harlequin Bonus: 729% > Bloodline: Drow > Instructions: Build up your stuff with Lightning Strike and hope for a quick Pyramid hit. Then just let it run. (Contingecy 100% Lightning Strike, Moon Blessing and Call to Arms Priority casting, Gem Grinder Planned casting) What you have described is the elven luck version of pyrastrike where the focus is shifted from assistants to elven luck procs. A while back I had calculated this to produce twice as much income as regular pyrastrike but I decided that an x2 multiplier wasn’t worth keeping the tab open with an autoclicker 24/7 so I scrapped it. Now you are using Moon Blessing instead of an autoclicker so you don’t have to keep the tab open but that’s half as many clicks so it offsets the bonus. It then becomes just a question of how long it takes for drowline to cover the gap to titanline and diamond pickaxe. Titanline is easily going to get to 7.5k% by the time drowline becomes relevant and diamond pickaxe is x5 as strong as moon blessing. This means you need drowline to be 37.5k% for this build to surpass pyrastrike. Of course you need much less mana for the full combo but do note that titanstream is also significantly easier than drowstream to farm.

It’s also a mistake to have lightning strike in an elven luck build as lightning strike really ramps up drow heritage decreasing the proportion of income from building production.

Moon Blessing gives 15 autoclicks/s, but only when active. I think that’s the whole point of this build. No mana regen means being stuck at 25/s which isn’t much, so waiting for a combo is a factor.

Guys i used now 6 Days “Drowcenaries” with 540 trophies Reached from 1 Nod Gems to only 26 Nod Gems Thats fucked up. Im at R12 cant reach R13. Never find a good build to farm fast gems. Please help me! Testing all of these builds…..