The Battleship In WW2

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(I moved this post here from off-topic as i got told it belonged here)

I have heard my whole life that the end of the battleship was when the Prince of Wales and the Repulse were sunk in 1941, by japanese planes.

The Repulse was a WW1 dread nought and The Prince of Wales had been damadged by a lucky torpedo hit previously and it had taken out all of her 5 inch anti-aircraft guns and left her without radar and listing badly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Prince_of_Wales_(1939)
The japanese had used land based medium bomber planes against the force and not ship based fighters,
Also the japanese sent in planes against the the british force armed soley with anti-ship weapons. The Prince of Wales had been sent out still in the mind set that it would primarily engage other ships.

The other arguement is that the attack at pearl harbor ended the battleship.
I think this is not true as the ships were sitting ducks moored in the harbor,
It is also of note that the US never lost a battle ship that was not moored during WW2.

The americans last class of battle ships the Iowa class capable of using the proximaty fuse rounds , were armed to the teeth with anti-aircraft batteries , many were engaged time and again by japanese planes but never sunk , one even had a kamikazi hit which caused little damadge to the heavily armored ship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_class_battleship

There was a saying in the navy during WW2 ,that the carrier ruled the day but the radar equiped guns of the ships ruled the night.

I do not believe that the battleships role in front line combat was removed in the naval fleet action until the advent of jet fighters on carriers after WW2 and even then they had a place in the fleet as shore bombardment and as a cruise missile platform.

At what time do you think they should have been striken from the naval list?


The battleship alabama BB-60 (south dakota class)

 
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The USS Iowa is a museum ship, but the cool part is it’s one of the only museum ship that is ready to be deployed for combat in under 2 days. It’s loaded with all the missiles, shells, and fuel it needs. The guns and engines are kept working.

But the day of the battleship is over. It didn’t end with carriers, no. The beginning of the end was the guided missile, and the nail in the coffin was the missile-portable nuke. A single hit, and no amount of armour will do shit.

 
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First: A bit of “history”…
The name for the huge battleships comes (somewhat) from the Bible…book of Job:
""1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God,…..""
From there came: Fear God, and dread [fear] naught [nothing]….[OR, more to, nothing ELSE.
From that: The comma was “dropped” and it read: Fear God AND dreadnaught,,,,meaning that one should fear BOTH of them. Ergo, the concept of “dreadnought” was applied as a name to the HMS Dreadnought, a British warship. Whereas, it became a “generic term” for any such heavy battleship.

Most such battle ships are now “mothballed”….
Their “day” has passed….
Their mission was to carry tremendous destructive power to land based fortifications….to “soften them up” for a beach assault//landing of troops.
Usually because parachuting them wasn’t possible because of no air base close enough to allow for planes to reach the war zone.

The advent of the aircraft carrier (originally purposed to fight off aerial attacks on the battleships, destroyers, etc.) soon spelled the death of the battleship as evolution of greater destructive “payloads” for the ship-based aircraft was developed.

For awhile,,,the battleship and the aircraft carrier worked in concert. The battleship handling the beach areas (range around 15 miles) while the planes handled targets farther inland.

But, as planes & their payload technology advanced…..the role of the huge battleship was over. In part,,,due to the newly greater role the nuclear submarine was playing. Defense money was now going to subs…and “away from” battleships & destroyers (planes could better find and kill subs).

CO is right….. a “low yield” nuke detonated a few hundred feet deep will cause a “mini-tsunami” that would swamp & sink a whole flotilla.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:


CO is right….. a “low yield” nuke detonated a few hundred feet deep will cause a “mini-tsunami” that would swamp & sink a whole flotilla.

I don’t think a mini-tsunami would do the trick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operation_Crossroads_Baker_Edit.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Operation_Crossroads_Baker_Edit.jpg
The ship that you see at ground zero (in front of the blast to the right) is the battleship arkansas it was built in 1909 and it survived the blast and following tsunami, It was sunk later on in following tests.A very surprising amount of ships when tested survived these test blasts.

 
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I don’t think YOU understand what a 200-300 foot high wave can do to a ship.
What kind of “blast” was there in your pics?

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

I don’t think YOU understand what a 200-300 foot high wave can do to a ship.
What kind of “blast” was there in your pics?

Looks like an atomic detonation, but not point blank over the ship. Its outside the initial blast.

 
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I think this is the kind of thing shown in the picture.

Karma, you are overlooking the influence of the submarine on the battleship. The Battle of Jutland in 1916 was probably the last time that two great battle fleets slugged it out. In terms of losses, Germany won the battle, but in tactical terms the British won – it effectively kept the remains of the German battle fleet out of the war. They reverted to developing their submarines, which they used to devastating effect, especially in the Second War during the Battle of the Atlantic. Large ships with poor manoeuvrability were a sitting target for them, and the emphasis in the Royal Navy switched to the smaller destroyer, particularly dedicated subnmarine hunters. Not that what you’re saying is wrong, but this is another big piece of the picture.

 
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I have heard my whole life that the end of the battleship was when the Prince of Wales and the Repulse were sunk in 1941, by japanese planes.

Yup. Proved that planes could destroy battleships and the battleships couldn’t do squat.

The other arguement is that the attack at pearl harbor ended the battleship.
I think this is not true as the ships were sitting ducks moored in the harbor,
It is also of note that the US never lost a battle ship that was not moored during WW2.

They never lost a battleship cause they always had air cover.
Pearl Harbor? Proved how unwieldy they are. Only battleship was ready to go in the entire fleet.

The americans last class of battle ships the Iowa class capable of using the proximaty fuse rounds , were armed to the teeth with anti-aircraft batteries , many were engaged time and again by japanese planes but never sunk , one even had a kamikazi hit which caused little damadge to the heavily armored ship.

Once again, the Americans always had air cover during battleship fights. And they weren’t heavily armored all over the ship: just where it mattered. That was an American thing, hence why they survived so well. Probably could have done far better than even the German’s compartmentalization.
The only fights where we didn’t have air cover was the Japanese didn’t.

There was a saying in the navy during WW2 ,that the carrier ruled the day but the radar equiped guns of the ships ruled the night.

True enough until they equipped planes with radar. Which they did in World War II.

At what time do you think they should have been striken from the naval list?

When they were. During WWII, the last great battleships fought. Well, one American ship beat the hell out of two old Japanese battleships (the Kongo and something else) while the South Dakota sat it out. They were useless against planes: even now, with all their defenses, they still need fighter support in the face of enemy planes. They have their uses as big missile platforms and for their long range: but the carrier group is superior.

 
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Originally posted by vikaTae:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

I don’t think YOU understand what a 200-300 foot high wave can do to a ship.
What kind of “blast” was there in your pics?

Looks like an atomic detonation, but not point blank over the ship. Its outside the initial blast.

It was an under-water nuclear test, it is also considered the worlds first nuclear disaster as the people who were involved in the test didn’t understand the the forces involved and had thier life expenctancy shortened to less than three months.

No ship can survive a direct nuclear hit, not even a supercarrier.
also I think a virginia class sub with its torpedos can sink anything afloat as my understanding is that it creates a ball of air beneath the ship which causes the weight of the ship to split it in half.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_48_torpedo

I do agree that for force projection nothing beats a carrier.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

First: A bit of “history”…
The name for the huge battleships comes (somewhat) from the Bible…book of Job:
""1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God,…..""
From there came: Fear God, and dread [fear] naught [nothing]….[OR, more to, nothing ELSE.
From that: The comma was “dropped” and it read: Fear God AND dreadnaught,,,,meaning that one should fear BOTH of them. Ergo, the concept of “dreadnought” was applied as a name to the HMS Dreadnought, a British warship. Whereas, it became a “generic term” for any such heavy battleship.

Most such battle ships are now “mothballed”….
Their “day” has passed….
Their mission was to carry tremendous destructive power to land based fortifications….to “soften them up” for a beach assault//landing of troops.
Usually because parachuting them wasn’t possible because of no air base close enough to allow for planes to reach the war zone.

The advent of the aircraft carrier (originally purposed to fight off aerial attacks on the battleships, destroyers, etc.) soon spelled the death of the battleship as evolution of greater destructive “payloads” for the ship-based aircraft was developed.

For awhile,,,the battleship and the aircraft carrier worked in concert. The battleship handling the beach areas (range around 15 miles) while the planes handled targets farther inland.

But, as planes & their payload technology advanced…..the role of the huge battleship was over. In part,,,due to the newly greater role the nuclear submarine was playing. Defense money was now going to subs…and “away from” battleships & destroyers (planes could better find and kill subs).

CO is right….. a “low yield” nuke detonated a few hundred feet deep will cause a “mini-tsunami” that would swamp & sink a whole flotilla.

Karma should know, he was alive during WW2 I think..

 
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Nope…..
If ya “do the math”…
ya’ll see that I was born in ’46.
IMMEDIATELY AFTER the “boys came home” from WWII.
Those horny bastards then created our baby boom

My “knowledge” of Naval “lore” comes from service as a squid (see # 11)

AND,,, beauval…. don’t forget the hugely brutal battles of the Bismarck which is during WWII…..and her ultimate end.
And the considered end of capital ships

Of course,,,, the developing submarines w/ their high-tech//better torpedos were the “final nail in the coffin”.

 
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The Bismarck? Well yes, that’s sort of what I was driving at. We had already learnt the hard way that big ships were vulnerable to torpedos, maybe the Germans hadn’t. After all, it only needed one not so high-tech torpedo fired from an obsolete aircraft to cripple the pride of the German navy. It was the U-boats, not the battleships, that threatened to starve us into submission during the Battle of the Atlantic.

 
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Howdy Guys.. New member here. I don’t play video games but I very much enjoy the History etc. of WWII and stumbled across this post. Great insight and I very much enjoyed reading all your posted comments.. I’m a Husband (32 yrs) Father & Grandfather with many hobbies that I share with my Grandkids who are the center of of our life. Since a child back in the 60’s & 70’s I’ve enjoyed model building with a passion for WWII Aircraft as well as the Classic Monsters from Universal & Hammer studios. Had an on-line business for about nine years producing my own original solid resin model kits under the flag of “Monsters On The Shelf”.. So any ways, just wanted to say howdy with a short introduction.. You all take care and God Bless.. JW (Joe Williams)