is it ever okay to get an abortion? page 6

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Juice – the problem that I see with banning abortion before the end of the first trimester is that, like it or not, people will be getting them. They’ll just be doing it in back-alley doctors and using…well, I won’t go into gory details…but it’s not good. While I think there should be limits to abortions, I see banning all abortion as similar to the War on Drugs. People are going to do it anyway, and you’re only causing more problems when you try to ban it.

This is of course under the assumption that a first-trimester fetus is not a human (and thus is not murder). And that’s again the only real question – when is the fetus a human?

 
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Well that depends on what you classify as humans. for example the germans in WW2 did’nt consider jews as human thats why they did’nt consider it murder when they killed them. it really depends on and on what would the doctor classifys it as human, and if it would benifit him/her if it was’nt (if it was a courruted doctor in it for the money).

 
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I’m not talking about individual doctors, I’m talking about public policy, about national law. And I don’t see how the Nazi’s are even remotely related here – we’re not talking about the mass brainwashing of a people, we’re talking about informed, carefully planned legal definitions. Reductio ad Hitlerum …tsk tsk…

 
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The nazi’s ARE related, Phoenix. They are related because as this debate goes on, the probability of them or hitler being referenced approaches one. ./reference

 
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:-P And we were hardly over 100 posts… And there’s a difference between inevitability and actual relevance to the discussion at hand.

Also, were the Jews actually not considered human, or simply considered lesser humans (like blacks were in the US for a couple hundred years)?

 
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wow, this thread has grown alot since I last posted!

Nithos – many pre-mature babies also survive just fine. Is it reasonable to kill a baby that is born but on a ventilator, even if the doctor thinks it will be fine in the long run? I mean, if it’s gonna die in a few months anyway, then that’s fine. But as a purely elective “we don’t want this baby”?

Phoenix: I’m not saying all are fubared for life, but some may be. All depending on how pre-mature the baby was born.
The earlier the larger the risks. Once the baby is out, and can be saved, the time-frame for termination has long passed.

But then, on the other side of the coin, your life ends once you need medical aid?

Kyriva: Depends on the situation and the gravity of the medical aid needed to sustain life.
You do have a decent point though.

And I’m not sure who/what you’re referring to here :/

Sorry about that. What I ment to say is that the 8 week rule, or 9 week, or whatever it is, is a good indication based on medical research of when it is “ok” to do an abortion. Don’t know if I came out any clearer now though.

With few exceptions, the woman chooses it themselves by having sex. That makes me sound pretty sexist…but that’s how the biology works. Then again, I tend to favor an occasional early abortion – it’s when people use it as birth control that they really cross the line in my opinion.

Phoenix: With that said, the man also chooses to have sex, and should have a say if the pregnancy is terminated or not.
If it’s about choices having consequnces and responsibility beeing shared by those participating.

 
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Phoenix: I’m not saying all are fubared for life, but some may be. All depending on how pre-mature the baby was born. The earlier the larger the risks. Once the baby is out, and can be saved, the time-frame for termination has long passed.

Yes, some may be, and anything before 28 weeks or so is pretty much fubared for life. But I don’t find it okay to say that the baby must be able to be self-sustained directly at birth in order to qualify as a human life.

Phoenix: With that said, the man also chooses to have sex, and should have a say if the pregnancy is terminated or not. If it’s about choices having consequnces and responsibility beeing shared by those participating.

Now that’s a very interesting point that I mentioned at some point and I don’t think was fully examined. I don’t feel that a man should ever have the right to force (legally) the woman to have an abortion. However, it strikes me as absolutely horrible if the woman were to decide to have the abortion even if the man wanted to keep the child. Should a man have the legal right to force the woman to go to term (assuming no health risks to the woman)? Or should a woman have the right to kill a man’s child against his wishes?

 
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I also beleive that, in reference to a mans rights, if he does not wish to have the child and can prove (within reasonable doubt) he did not intend to get the woman pregnant (he used a condom but it failed, for example) he should be able to legally absolve himself of all ties to the baby. I’m not saying he should force the woman to get an abortion, but that he shouldn’t be responsible if he didn’t intend to have the child.

 
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Yes, some may be, and anything before 28 weeks or so is pretty much fubared for life. But I don’t find it okay to say that the baby must be able to be self-sustained directly at birth in order to qualify as a human life.

I agree with you in this. I just wanted a debate going on how we could define life.
I think somehow defining life , if it’s possible at all, will greatly contribute to cut to the core of the dicussion.

The point about shared responsibility is an interresting one, and one extremely hard to answer without restricting the rights of either party involved. The point is often brought up in discussion I have on this particular subject and it is never easily answered, if answered at all.

Forcing someone to carry forth a child is a terrible atrocity, but denying a man to have a child that is wanted isn’t much better.
Perhaps this is about choosing the lesser of evils?

I also beleive that, in reference to a mans rights, if he does not wish to have the child and can prove (within reasonable doubt) he did not intend to get the woman pregnant (he used a condom but it failed, for example) he should be able to legally absolve himself of all ties to the baby. I’m not saying he should force the woman to get an abortion, but that he shouldn’t be responsible if he didn’t intend to have the child.

milsk: I fully agree. This is a solution I advocate when the topic comes up.
Problems that arise though: What if the child wants to know his/her father when it grows up?
What if the father feels remorse and suddenly wants to meet his child later in his life?

 
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Nithos:

> Sorry about that. What I ment to say is that the 8 week rule, or 9 week, or whatever it is, is a good indication based on medical research of when it is “ok” to do an abortion. Don’t know if I came out any clearer now though.

Are you referring to the time when a baby can survive with medical help?

> Forcing someone to carry forth a child is a terrible atrocity, but denying a man to have a child that is wanted isn’t much better. Perhaps this is about choosing the lesser of evils?

I think this is more of an easy way out for lawmakers. You either have to give men the rights, or women the rights, or decide on a case by case basis. The latter is too complicated, and I think women having all the rights is the lesser of two evils.

> Problems that arise though: What if the child wants to know his/her father when it grows up? What if the father feels remorse and suddenly wants to meet his child later in his life?

I think in the first case, just let it happen. They will be two adults meeting, with no responsibility for each other. The second is more tricky, I would be tempted to allow him a one time opting back in, with the responsibilites that come with it – provided the mother agreed (wouldn’t bank on it though :P).

Milskidasith

> I’m not saying he should force the woman to get an abortion, but that he shouldn’t be responsible if he didn’t intend to have the child.

I agree, though only in situations where the woman is allowed to have an abortion.