We should let the old and weak die? Or not? page 3

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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

So?

So it’s wrong. Easy as that.

Or not. Murder is different from mercy killing, even if they do share similar traits. After all, in mercy killing, the dying one is suffering, and ending suffering is generally good.

A sine wave is better than a line. There are ups and downs, but it isn’t boring like a flat line.

 
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So, if the OP called in from a public payphone a ‘tip’ that the family of the grandmother the OP is talking about has plans to euthanize the patient, will they ban them from the hospital?

Just saying, OP. :)

 
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Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

Why do ya say that?
I’ve ended several lives…WITH THE CONSENT of the “victim”,,,,in the name of mercy.
A few, I didn’t even have their “consent”….but, for the sake of mercy, there was NO OTHER CHOICE.

Guys. Life isn’t quite as squeeky-clean as your young experiences present. It’s very complicated and usually all fucked up in areas regarding living & dying. NO ONE really wants to die….they just don’t want to LIVE if living is too great a pall-of-pain.

We all die. Some of manage to do it w/ style & dignity.

 
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Originally posted by SadisticOgre:
Originally posted by helltank:

I think they have the choice. It’s their life…

Also, you should demand the reason why you can’t see your grandma, and inform them of the legal rights to see your grandma.

But in the USA we do not have the right to choose death, society has the control – not the individual.

I asked my parents when I can see her, and they said ‘when she is in the cemetery’. These are normally liberal minded people who are educated, and it is not the death aspect or the illness rattling them, but my ideas that I said above.

Move her to Oregon. It is legal there.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

Why do ya say that?
I’ve ended several lives…WITH THE CONSENT of the “victim”,,,,in the name of mercy.
A few, I didn’t even have their “consent”….but, for the sake of mercy, there was NO OTHER CHOICE.

Guys. Life isn’t quite as squeeky-clean as your young experiences present. It’s very complicated and usually all fucked up in areas regarding living & dying. NO ONE really wants to die….they just don’t want to LIVE if living is too great a pall-of-pain.

We all die. Some of manage to do it w/ style & dignity.

A nine year old killed several people in a mercy killing? Uh…

Anyway, I feel that while life is more important than money, life where all you do is suffer and lie there is not.

Read the book Night. In the Nazi concentration camp, several hundred people were given the chance to live with the possibility of more torture, but they just lay down in the snow and died. And you want to know how many? So many that the living ones couldn’t breathe.

 
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Originally posted by Beryllium8:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

So?

So it’s wrong. Easy as that.

Or not. Murder is different from mercy killing, even if they do share similar traits. After all, in mercy killing, the dying one is suffering, and ending suffering is generally good.

A sine wave is better than a line. There are ups and downs, but it isn’t boring like a flat line.

Elaborate plz.

 
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Originally posted by helltank:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

Why do ya say that?
I’ve ended several lives…WITH THE CONSENT of the “victim”,,,,in the name of mercy.
A few, I didn’t even have their “consent”….but, for the sake of mercy, there was NO OTHER CHOICE.

Guys. Life isn’t quite as squeeky-clean as your young experiences present. It’s very complicated and usually all fucked up in areas regarding living & dying. NO ONE really wants to die….they just don’t want to LIVE if living is too great a pall-of-pain.

We all die. Some of manage to do it w/ style & dignity.

A nine year old killed several people in a mercy killing? Uh…

Anyway, I feel that while life is more important than money, life where all you do is suffer and lie there is not.

Read the book Night. In the Nazi concentration camp, several hundred people were given the chance to live with the possibility of more torture, but they just lay down in the snow and died. And you want to know how many? So many that the living ones couldn’t breathe.

That’s suicide, not mercy-killing.

Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

So?

So it’s wrong. Easy as that.

Or not. Murder is different from mercy killing, even if they do share similar traits. After all, in mercy killing, the dying one is suffering, and ending suffering is generally good.

A sine wave is better than a line. There are ups and downs, but it isn’t boring like a flat line.

Elaborate plz.

I mean, an emotional sine wave is better than an emotional line. Sorry, poor phrasing on my part.

 
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So emotional instability is better than emotional stability, because emotional instability is less “boring”, and thus should be preserved no matter how irrational and/or hypocritical it seems? That just doesn’t make sense.

 
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No. 1.I find the stories of our elders and grandfathers very interesting, and I would not want to loose them

2.The weak is the weak;they cant help being disabled

 
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As far as things go, I’m pretty conservative, but I do swing liberal on this issue. It’s wrong to let essentially brain-dead people to keep on living, and it’s wrong to not allow people who are incredibly miserable (medically speaking of course) to choose to live or die.

 
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I’ve sometimes wished death upon myself. I regret this however. Pain and suffering is what clouds one’s judgment. Also, many people feel that killing someone, whether they are suffering or not is murder. What if she pulls through and lives to be like, 105 or something? Killing her would’ve sacrificed over half a decade of life in exchange for a little less suffering.

Hey, why don’t we all jump off a bridge as we’re born? The suffering is obviously not worth the immense pain and suffering we may go through.

So many times we want to die, but then we live, and realize we were wrong. If we actually all got ourselves killed because of pain and suffering, where would we be now? “Oh I have this horrible illness I’ll have to deal with for 4 months… hand me that shotgun johnny, It’s not worth it, even though I’m 25.”

I don’t think anyone should be put to death. To be honest, I hope that if I ever get horrible like that and wish death upon myself, that others don’t put me down. Pain clouds the mind. It’s like a guy walks up to every person and says “Kill me.” should we kill him? Even if that’s what he wants?

If everytime I asked to die a divine bolt from above actually killed me, my life would’ve been pretty damn short. Seriously. Ex. “Ugh, this month of pain isn’t worth my 110 year existence! KILL ME PLEASE!” It’s similar to allowing a mentally ill person decide whether they will live or die. We should help the injured heal, not kill them.


Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
Originally posted by Beryllium8:

Mercy killing is no different than murder. It’s ending a life without consent of the victim..

Why do ya say that?
I’ve ended several lives…WITH THE CONSENT of the “victim”,,,,in the name of mercy.
A few, I didn’t even have their “consent”….but, for the sake of mercy, there was NO OTHER CHOICE.

Guys. Life isn’t quite as squeeky-clean as your young experiences present. It’s very complicated and usually all fucked up in areas regarding living & dying. NO ONE really wants to die….they just don’t want to LIVE if living is too great a pall-of-pain.

We all die. Some of manage to do it w/ style & dignity.

With the consent of those who cannot think. As I said, many who when asked after making suicidal statements if they’d make them again would say ‘no’.

Also, without consent? That’s wonderful. Sorry, but when I’m in a hospital bed moaning and trying to pull through later in life I don’t want some man coming in and giving me a needle to kill me. What if I wanted to live? Then you are deciding my fate for me which equals murder. I, in my grave would, 100% consider you a murderer. Not everyone who’s moaning should die. If you killed everyone who suffered, how many of us would be here today? Sorry, I’d rather take my chances and maybe die ‘undignified’ and maybe live, than have some know-it-all put me down. Might as well go to a random hospital, visit a random person, and slit their throat. “Oh, I deemed he was in too much suffering to live. Kthxbai.”

By the way, you consider taking someones life when they strongly want to live ‘mercy’? Yes. That makes sense. Ending a person’s suffering in exchange for the next god-knows how many years of their life is OBVIOUSLY ‘mercy’. Sorry, pretty sure the patient can decide if it’d be mercy or not.

Also, maybe they don’t want to be put down, even if they’re going to die. I know I most likely wouldn’t.

“You have one day to live. You’ll be in terrible pain. For this reason, we’ve decided to kill you. Hits on head with mallet

LMAO.


Also, being put to death is ‘dignified and with style’? That’s like saying, ‘running into the enemy commander in battle when out numbered, and letting him sever your head is dieing with dignity.’ No, pretty sure fighting to your last breath and not giving up would be a dignified death. I don’t consider being put down like a dog dignified, or stylish.

 
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Also, If I believe that by mercy killing me you are a murder and I want to live, but you kill me anyways, then you are forcing your beliefs on me assuming they are right.

 
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@Beryllium8
My point is, if a bunch of guys with machine guns came up and said,“Who would like me to kill you? It’s painless and free!” they would have readily accepted.

 
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Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

Also, If I believe that by mercy killing me you are a murder and I want to live, but you kill me anyways, then you are forcing your beliefs on me assuming they are right.

If you want to live connected to tubes sooooo badly, maybe the money should come out of your own pocket instead of the guy with health insurance.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

Also, If I believe that by mercy killing me you are a murder and I want to live, but you kill me anyways, then you are forcing your beliefs on me assuming they are right.

If you want to live connected to tubes sooooo badly, maybe the money should come out of your own pocket instead of the guy with health insurance.

This is about the ethics of it, not where the money comes from. The moral of it more. If it’s going to bankrupt someone, then moral or not fine, maybe, especially if someone actually wants it. But from a moral standpoint I feel it’s wrong. Therefore, if I were to think it were morally wrong and would rather live out my life to it’s entirety no matter how short, and someone were to kill me without my consent, then they’d be forcing their morals on me.

“I don’t care if you feel it’s morally wrong and want to live, and die normally, I’m going to kill you because I’ve decided it’s merciful.” Just doesn’t make sense from a moral standpoint. Money wise, yes, it is necessary in some cases, but generally when it’s so extreme that they’ll do it, (especially when some guy will do it w/o consent) the guy’s only got a short while to live anyways. Might as well let him die naturally as possible if that’s what he wants.

I have a right to my moral opinion and stance. Also, they’ve almost killed people who they THOUGHT were near dead (comma, etc) and they’ve survived and been perfectly fine for the rest of their years. In this case it was not about being ‘put down’ but it was similar. Things happen. You can’t kill someone who has even the slightest chance of living in my opinion, because you are responsible for possibly taking those years of their life away.

 
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One of the issues that has not been addressed here, is what sort of structure do we put in place to ensure that those who die, die because its their choice to do so?

Always in the back of my mind I have the scenario of the heavily disabled individual, being bullied into choosing to die, because their family don’t really wish to support them. It is possible to structure such systems to all but prohibit this misuse, but it is something that requires careful thought.


I have a right to my moral opinion and stance. Also, they’ve almost killed people who they THOUGHT were near dead (comma, etc) and they’ve survived and been perfectly fine for the rest of their years. In this case it was not about being ‘put down’ but it was similar. Things happen. You can’t kill someone who has even the slightest chance of living in my opinion, because you are responsible for possibly taking those years of their life away.

That would be more a case of not making sufficient diagnosis. If the brain’s dead, they are not going to revive, no matter how you might pray otherwise. Likewise, if they really wish to die and there is consensus from the medical community that they are only going to get physically worse before the end, then it is their right, and not yours, to determine what to do with the rest of their days. If they choose to end them early, it is their right to do so.

 
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I don’t think anyone should be put to death. To be honest, I hope that if I ever get horrible like that and wish death upon myself, that others don’t put me down. Pain clouds the mind. It’s like a guy walks up to every person and says “Kill me.” should we kill him? Even if that’s what he wants?

No, we shouldn’t kill him in those circumstances. If this man really wanted to die, he would do the job himself. Methinks this hypothetical man is looking for some other kind of help.

“You have one day to live. You’ll be in terrible pain. For this reason, we’ve decided to kill you. Hits on head with mallet”

This scenario has nothing to do with the OP. There is a world of difference between deciding to kill people, and allowing them to slip away naturally if nothing more can be done to help them.

When you are twenty, you think you are immortal, that it’s going to last for ever. By the time you hit sixty, and have lost a few friends and acquaintances to natural causes, you come to terms with your own mortality, and the fact that quality of life is more important than quantity.

Would I like to live to ninety or more, still in reasonable health, able to get out and about and hold down my end of a conversation? That would be very nice. Do I want to become a gibbering wreck, unable to walk, dribbling into my soup, struggling to remember what I did five minutes ago and being a burden to all around me. Absolutely not. I would like to think that if I got to that stage, my wishes would be respected and any illness I had would be allowed to run its course. Just make me comfortable and allow me to bow out in a quiet and dignified way.

 
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Originally posted by SnoozerBear:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

Also, If I believe that by mercy killing me you are a murder and I want to live, but you kill me anyways, then you are forcing your beliefs on me assuming they are right.

If you want to live connected to tubes sooooo badly, maybe the money should come out of your own pocket instead of the guy with health insurance.

This is about the ethics of it, not where the money comes from. The moral of it more. If it’s going to bankrupt someone, then moral or not fine, maybe, especially if someone actually wants it. But from a moral standpoint I feel it’s wrong. Therefore, if I were to think it were morally wrong and would rather live out my life to it’s entirety no matter how short, and someone were to kill me without my consent, then they’d be forcing their morals on me.

“I don’t care if you feel it’s morally wrong and want to live, and die normally, I’m going to kill you because I’ve decided it’s merciful.” Just doesn’t make sense from a moral standpoint. Money wise, yes, it is necessary in some cases, but generally when it’s so extreme that they’ll do it, (especially when some guy will do it w/o consent) the guy’s only got a short while to live anyways. Might as well let him die naturally as possible if that’s what he wants.

I have a right to my moral opinion and stance. Also, they’ve almost killed people who they THOUGHT were near dead (comma, etc) and they’ve survived and been perfectly fine for the rest of their years. In this case it was not about being ‘put down’ but it was similar. Things happen. You can’t kill someone who has even the slightest chance of living in my opinion, because you are responsible for possibly taking those years of their life away.

If you want to live, that’s fine. But don’t say I’m obligated to help.

People in comas miraculously came back to life? How stunning: Exceptions! If we are going to worry about stuff like that, then we should probably prepare for every other eventuality.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by SnoozerBear:
Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:
Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

Also, If I believe that by mercy killing me you are a murder and I want to live, but you kill me anyways, then you are forcing your beliefs on me assuming they are right.

If you want to live connected to tubes sooooo badly, maybe the money should come out of your own pocket instead of the guy with health insurance.

This is about the ethics of it, not where the money comes from. The moral of it more. If it’s going to bankrupt someone, then moral or not fine, maybe, especially if someone actually wants it. But from a moral standpoint I feel it’s wrong. Therefore, if I were to think it were morally wrong and would rather live out my life to it’s entirety no matter how short, and someone were to kill me without my consent, then they’d be forcing their morals on me.

“I don’t care if you feel it’s morally wrong and want to live, and die normally, I’m going to kill you because I’ve decided it’s merciful.” Just doesn’t make sense from a moral standpoint. Money wise, yes, it is necessary in some cases, but generally when it’s so extreme that they’ll do it, (especially when some guy will do it w/o consent) the guy’s only got a short while to live anyways. Might as well let him die naturally as possible if that’s what he wants.

I have a right to my moral opinion and stance. Also, they’ve almost killed people who they THOUGHT were near dead (comma, etc) and they’ve survived and been perfectly fine for the rest of their years. In this case it was not about being ‘put down’ but it was similar. Things happen. You can’t kill someone who has even the slightest chance of living in my opinion, because you are responsible for possibly taking those years of their life away.

If you want to live, that’s fine. But don’t say I’m obligated to help.

People in comas miraculously came back to life? How stunning: Exceptions! If we are going to worry about stuff like that, then we should probably prepare for every other eventuality.

I didn’t mean help. Just don’t force my time upon me sooner. If you want to unhook me, not fund me, and let me die, fine. At least it’s more natural than being put down like some dog. And about exceptions, that’s just an ultra rare occurrence that I think aids bearing death’s touch.


No, we shouldn’t kill him in those circumstances. If this man really wanted to die, he would do the job himself. Methinks this hypothetical man is looking for some other kind of help.

True.

This scenario has nothing to do with the OP. There is a world of difference between deciding to kill people, and allowing them to slip away naturally if nothing more can be done to help them.

They are talking not about letting someone slip away, that’s what I WANT. I’m talking about giving them drugs to mercy kill them like an animal. I want to die somewhat more naturally.

When you are twenty, you think you are immortal, that it’s going to last for ever. By the time you hit sixty, and have lost a few friends and acquaintances to natural causes, you come to terms with your own mortality, and the fact that quality of life is more important than quantity.

I’m no where near twenty (miracle I’m even in SD for my age, I thought I’d think it boring), and I have no delusions of immortality. My life so far has already snapped me to reality. I also value quality over quantity, but for the moments of my death, I’d rather die like every other human, and not feel like I’ve been poisoned or put down like a dog.

Would I like to live to ninety or more, still in reasonable health, able to get out and about and hold down my end of a conversation? That would be very nice. Do I want to become a gibbering wreck, unable to walk, dribbling into my soup, struggling to remember what I did five minutes ago and being a burden to all around me. Absolutely not. I would like to think that if I got to that stage, my wishes would be respected and any illness I had would be allowed to run its course. Just make me comfortable and allow me to bow out in a quiet and dignified way.

My point is, if I’m going to die, make me as comfortable as you can, then let me die naturally and dignified. ‘be allowed to run its course’ Is my goal to.

 
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Why would you rather be unhooked, and starve to death, than die of euthanasia, which is significantly more painless? The only reason we connect euthanasia with dogs is because Bush banned it for people.

 
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@SnoozerBear-The way I see it, you have 2 choices.

a)Die painfully
b)Die after being “put down”, however you lose your dignity.

So would you prefer pain to dignity or dignity to pain? I would choose losing my dignity over pain.

 
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Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

Would I like to live to ninety or more, still in reasonable health, able to get out and about and hold down my end of a conversation? That would be very nice. Do I want to become a gibbering wreck, unable to walk, dribbling into my soup, struggling to remember what I did five minutes ago and being a burden to all around me. Absolutely not. I would like to think that if I got to that stage, my wishes would be respected and any illness I had would be allowed to run its course. Just make me comfortable and allow me to bow out in a quiet and dignified way.

My point is, if I’m going to die, make me as comfortable as you can, then let me die naturally and dignified. ‘be allowed to run its course’ Is my goal to.

Your point is basically that you don´t think that getting a injection and then sleeping away peacefully is dignified. Now here we disagree. You put some kind of mystical emphasis on the word natural you throw about (in an objectively unfitting way). So it is mostly an emotional Appeal, based on your beliefs.
I find it totally okay if you bring this up for how you personally want to die or how others should be allowed to die, if they so want to. As long as others are allowed to choose differently.

 
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Originally posted by SnoozerBear:

I didn’t mean help. Just don’t force my time upon me sooner. If you want to unhook me, not fund me, and let me die, fine. At least it’s more natural than being put down like some dog. And about exceptions, that’s just an ultra rare occurrence that I think aids bearing death’s touch.

Dogs are held in higher esteem than humans in this regard: If they are in obvious agony, and there’s nothing we can do to alleviate it, we won’t force them to live on, inching forward until their body finally packs up. We end their suffering.