Can Communism Work? page 16

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Originally posted by thedarklordx:

FYI catface your an idiot you keep talking about “true” communism and “perfect” communism while it does exist humans are most likely to fuck it up so we have to use examples of communism that we have going like cuba, north korea, soviet russia, china, etc. and those all fail epically soviet russia went down the tubes and china + north korea are the most limiting and crappy places to live that aren’t rural’

so instead of trying to debate your ideal communism or your idea of communism or “the perfect” communism we have to debate what has happened when it has been tried fuck theoretical communism we need to talk about the communism that has been tried and failed and proven inferior to capitalism

It seems like one could spend hours educating you on history to fix all the misinformation you have about reality. None of the States you mentioned ever where Communisms. For it to be Communism all means of Production have to belong to everyone. That was never the case especially in Russia, Cuba, North Korea and China. What we had there are Dictatorships, where a small elite owns and controls the means of Production/Government.

 
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Then I suppose his point is that in an Animal Farm-esque way, communism always turns into totalitarian dictatorship.

 
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theres never been any communist country so we can’t now

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:

Then I suppose his point is that in an Animal Farm-esque way, communism always turns into totalitarian dictatorship.

Problem with that is that communist societies have or do exist, even ones that have not turned into totalitarian dictatorships. Only on small scale and most involve Religion(So all Participants where there more or less of their own violation or could at least not think of anything better and most participants are willing to live with less then most people are accustomed to these days), but still.
Small independent cloisters that support themselves from cultivating the Land around them, can be one such place where communism is practiced.

 
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So religion is used to keep the people down and put the state ahead of themselves. And we all know what happens when religion is used in this way. A person who thinks that the will of the state is more important than their own life is a powerful weapon and very, very cheap. So to say it will still work out in a society of people like this is ludicrous.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:

So religion is used to keep the people down and put the state ahead of themselves. And we all know what happens when religion is used in this way. A person who thinks that the will of the state is more important than their own life is a powerful weapon and very, very cheap. So to say it will still work out in a society of people like this is ludicrous.

I would not call using religion. That would be true for some societies that are similar but where someone for example a small Elite or charismatic Leader actually profits and not the society as a whole(which includes every person).
And it is less or mostly not that the People believe the society is more important than themselves and more that their desires are toned down by focusing on substitutes like Religion or another source of satisfaction(like communism itself, drugs, meditation or what not).
The people who join and very important stay in such communities generally have specific Desiree sets that can actually be meet in such societies. These desire sets are specific, in no way common and can not be easily and automatically passed off to the next Generation just by bringing them up and educating them in such beliefs and environments.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

I was trying to make a sandwich. I accidentally drop it on the floor. I failed to make that sandwich; therefore I should never try to make a sandwich again; as I will drop them all on the floor. Do you see the problem with that logic?

you then make another sandwich it drops on the floor

you try 3 more times same problem

what do you learn? you suck at making sandwiches get a new hobby

 
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Support of communism itself? You get Animal Farm. Drugs? You get Brave New World. Meditation? No one will fall for that. You overestimate attention spans.

Getting people addicted to drugs so that they are willing to suffer for their drugs has the same effect as religion does.

What do you mean by varying desire sets?

Dark: Get a woman to make you a sandwich.

 
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Originally posted by thedarklordx:
Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

I was trying to make a sandwich. I accidentally drop it on the floor. I failed to make that sandwich; therefore I should never try to make a sandwich again; as I will drop them all on the floor. Do you see the problem with that logic?

you then make another sandwich it drops on the floor

you try 3 more times same problem

what do you learn? you suck at making sandwiches get a new hobby

That metaphor just went right over your head, didn’t it?
 
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I think he means that if it won’t work when you try a bunch, it’s not worthwhile, try something else.

This would make even more sense with systems of government, as a sandwich requires little expenditure of resources and time, while shifting government form requires massive amounts, and still more to shift back, along with lots while you’re attempting to maintain it.

 
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Right… But, it hasn’t been tried a bunch. And, for that matter, real communism hasn’t ever been tried on a large scale; only dictators using the communist name to disguise their tyranny…

Or, for my metaphor…

I’ve failed to make several pot pies; therefore I should never try to make a sandwich.

 
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My stupid answer to a stupid topic that can’t change anything: Invest in robots that maintain all of societies aspects, running on solar energy, they should farm, be security guards, create leisure devices, etc. People will all be equal, having basically the same stuff, and robots will run society, including medical robots to run scans on all robots, assuring that everything runs smoothly. People will have a very strict life when it comes to technology. The internet will be populated with scanner bots that will run programs daily, making sure nobody hacks any robots. It is a nearly unachievable, utopianesque idea. Imagine the Axiom from Wall-E.

EDIT- I forgot to mention that this is communist. Everybody has the same stuff, and whenever anything should be damaged, it gets repaired. Families will be limited to 1 child for a few generations, to cut down on population. Cutting down on population isn’t bad. Killing to achieve it is, but by regulating children, it is moral. We don’t kill people, we don’t allow them to spread. It’s like making bacteria only able to divide once, and then die. Except bacteria reproduce asexually, so they remain the same number. This will cut down on population, so after it has dropped to only a few hundred million or 1 billion or so, families may have 2 children. I understand that some people may not be able to, but it won’t happen on the scale of extinction.

 
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The USSR sure seemed Communist until Trotsky was kicked out. Was this not the case?

If the USSR was originally communist, but then shifted, then that is an example of a failed communist state/crappily made sandwich.

Nomo, not only would a Communist society work in that way, ANY society would work that way.

“Hey, what if ROBOTS did all the hard work? And ran on renewable energy! That would be awesome!”

“No dip, Sherlock.”

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:

The USSR sure seemed Communist until Trotsky was kicked out. Was this not the case?

If the USSR was originally communist, but then shifted, then that is an example of a failed communist state/crappily made sandwich.

Nomo, not only would a Communist society work in that way, ANY society would work that way.

“Hey, what if ROBOTS did all the hard work? And ran on renewable energy! That would be awesome!”

“No dip, Sherlock.”

What would a society like that be called? I’d call it Hemalgilist. It’s not even a word, but I’m sure that everything wasn’t a word until it was defined. Hemalgilist- A society where robots do everyhing.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:


What do you mean by varying desire sets?

Lets answer the question first. A desire set is a specific combination of desires. People have lots of desires(concisely and unconsciously), but there are lots more desires than one Person generally can have and desires can have different strengths varying for Person to Person. Hope this helps.

Then to your arguments.

Support of communism itself? You get Animal Farm. Drugs? You get Brave New World. Meditation? No one will fall for that.

Animal farm? brave New World? In both cases why does it lead to that? Meditation; seems like you´d be wondered what some people are willing to pay or go through for meditation seminars.

You overestimate attention spans.

Getting people addicted to drugs so that they are willing to suffer for their drugs has the same effect as religion does.

What do you mean with attentions spans and getting them addicted? Also it is not necessarily “willing to suffer for their drugs” and more not suffering because of them.

 
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So how can you find a way to appeal to everyone’s desires?

In Animal Farm, the animals build the doctrine of Animalism (read:communism). The smart animals (pigs) slowly take control, bettering themselves and explaining it as for Animalism, (for example, they get better food as to better support Animal Farm’s general affairs, like building projects and such, which the pigs are able to run best).

As in any society, one person generally becomes a leader whether you like it or not. Note Pericles in uber-democratic Athens.

As for Brave New World? The government is able to entirely infringe on the rights of the people, as any discontent is stifled and relieved by “soma”.

The vast majority of people are not willing to pay to do that.

If people are given drugs to keep them down, then people will inevitably be willing to make sacrifices for their drugs. If any person realized the amount of control they possessed over the people of Communista (which is what I am calling out hypothetical communist nation), like, say, the drug distributor, he could entirely seize power over Communista by steadily increasing the active ingredient (or not, might work anyway) and threatening to withhold drugs entirely.

Attention spans are how long one is willing to focus on one thing at a time, for long-term benefits. Meditation is an example of this, but most people’s attention spans are too short.

If people will not suffer because of their drugs, then withholding drugs brings the suffering back. Thus, threats and such can occur.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:

So how can you find a way to appeal to everyone’s desires?

In Animal Farm, the animals build the doctrine of Animalism (read:communism). The smart animals (pigs) slowly take control, bettering themselves and explaining it as for Animalism, (for example, they get better food as to better support Animal Farm’s general affairs, like building projects and such, which the pigs are able to run best).

As in any society, one person generally becomes a leader whether you like it or not. Note Pericles in uber-democratic Athens.

As for Brave New World? The government is able to entirely infringe on the rights of the people, as any discontent is stifled and relieved by “soma”.

The vast majority of people are not willing to pay to do that.

If people are given drugs to keep them down, then people will inevitably be willing to make sacrifices for their drugs. If any person realized the amount of control they possessed over the people of Communista (which is what I am calling out hypothetical communist nation), like, say, the drug distributor, he could entirely seize power over Communista by steadily increasing the active ingredient (or not, might work anyway) and threatening to withhold drugs entirely.

Attention spans are how long one is willing to focus on one thing at a time, for long-term benefits. Meditation is an example of this, but most people’s attention spans are too short.

If people will not suffer because of their drugs, then withholding drugs brings the suffering back. Thus, threats and such can occur.

But if nobody had any control, nobody would have anything to hold back. Robots….. (wink wink)
 
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Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

So political power goes to those who can increase the productivity of the society the most. Rather libertarian then.

 
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Originally posted by Flypurplehamster:

So how can you find a way to appeal to everyone’s desires?

If it is a Bunch of random People then there is no way to do so through communism. If it is a bunch of People who share desire sets it becomes easier. If communism can provide for the most significant of those desires, it can work for such a group of People.
Thats why communism can work with small mostly voluntary groups with shared desire sets. Most of those Persons who would not feel well under such circumstances(which communism leads to) can then leave and do amass in such large qualities that they can endanger the system.

In Animal Farm, the animals build the doctrine of Animalism (read:communism). The smart animals (pigs) slowly take control, bettering themselves and explaining it as for Animalism, (for example, they get better food as to better support Animal Farm’s general affairs, like building projects and such, which the pigs are able to run best).

As in any society, one person generally becomes a leader whether you like it or not. Note Pericles in uber-democratic Athens.

Yes and i can see why this can lead to Animal Farm. Especially since those with the talent and desire to become leaders tend to have an inner strive to Power, can usually get away with things because their adherents want to oversee their flaws and humans in general are not good at treating everyone equal.
But this does not mean that it has to lead to Animal Farm just that it is highly likely. In Animal Farm the smart Animals did not believe in communism and instead just used it for their own Personal gain while the dumb animals believed in it and paid the price. It starts looking a bit different if the brains are divided more equally and if every no one could gain more through using his position of leadership than he has to suffer for being part of the communist society. Those that do not share the goals/ideals of the society and can fare off better outside of the society need something to keep them there.

As for Brave New World? The government is able to entirely infringe on the rights of the people, as any discontent is stifled and relieved by “soma”.

The vast majority of people are not willing to pay to do that.

If people are given drugs to keep them down, then people will inevitably be willing to make sacrifices for their drugs. If any person realized the amount of control they possessed over the people of Communista (which is what I am calling out hypothetical communist nation), like, say, the drug distributor, he could entirely seize power over Communista by steadily increasing the active ingredient (or not, might work anyway) and threatening to withhold drugs entirely.

Yes but it seems you are basing this scenario on two basic idea. A) that drugs are used to keep people down and B) that someone in the group has power to control the distribution of drugs.
B already means it is pretty far away from communism(means of production belong to everyone). And A does not need to be the case. The drug use i am referring to is not the one where the government distributes drugs to keep the people down, but where people use drugs to satisfy some of their desires.

Attention spans are how long one is willing to focus on one thing at a time, for long-term benefits. Meditation is an example of this, but most people’s attention spans are too short.

Ähm. Again for a random group of people this might be somewhat true. But more because some people don´t get anything out of meditation they can´t get otherwise. Most meditation does not need more of an attention span than a typical 10 year old can hold. Meditation is not necessarily about sitting in front of a Wall all day long and staring at nothing, thinking about the deeper meaning of life.
For example a meditation exercise can be moving/dancing and relaxing/dreaming to music. Switching back and forth in 5-10 min intervals for 30-60 min a day.
For most People the effect experienced of such a meditation will be feeling pretty good(energized and slightly high). Many esoteric or religious people will start claiming to have experience the universe/life stream/god or some such depending on personal belief system. But fact is the corporal exercise(physical high) and the mental stimulus(mental high) are natural hormone based highs. Like drugs just not so physical addicting and based on natural body substance(great idea to add in some Sun Light for extra high).
Now if you already have lots of exercise and mental stimulus in your life, such meditation is not gone be so appealing to you that you would be willing to give up luxuries. But other people can and will make such meditation the center of their life.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

We wouldn’t need to update them if we stopped advancing.

 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

That sounds like an interesting topic. Could you give me a link?

 
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Originally posted by MadJedi:
Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

That sounds like an interesting topic. Could you give me a link?

I don’t think she’s made a thread for it before, though it would be interesting; she brought it up in… One of those old threads that I can’t hardly remember.
 
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Originally posted by Captain_Catface:
Originally posted by MadJedi:
Originally posted by Captain_Catface:

Wasn’t it Vika who bounced around the idea of rule-by-machine several times? I believe the problem ended up being that you could have to keep said machines up to date; eventually putting the entire civilization at the mercy of the programmers/engineers.

That sounds like an interesting topic. Could you give me a link?

I don’t think she’s made a thread for it before, though it would be interesting; she brought it up in… One of those old threads that I can’t hardly remember.

Yeah, that would be nice! :) I guess I’ll create a thread about that.