Abortion page 103

Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

“Assuming” that souls exist fetuses already are alive.Yes…

That… Makes no sense.

(which is also the reason for your feelings)

And what are you basing this assumption on, exactly?

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Oh my slippers! Tenco is a terrorist!

looks in a dictionary

Oh the fail.

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Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

That’s… Not how you role-play on a forum.

Originally posted by tenco1:

Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

That’s… Not how you role-play on a forum.

……………I have no words,and I just KNOW you will ask why,so…

because my laptop broke and I bought a new one in the next ten minutes.

Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

……………I have no words,and I just KNOW you will ask why,so…

… What?

because my laptop broke and I bought a new one in the next ten minutes.

I’m pretty sure that’s not how time works.

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Confirmed for troll

Not to burst my own bubble, but I did warn you guys.

I had mentioned the arguments over a year ago while she was still pregnant and she told me that when I told her about this thread and the way people wanted to have the right to kill the unborn she become upset.

I cry for America when they’re still more concerned about the life of a fetus in relation to the mother’s well-being over a homosexual’s equal privilege to marry.

To read all of the really worthless excuses to commit this abomination is heartbreaking and has me wondering if the world as we see it now is fit to continue.

It is heartbreaking that you conservatives are speaking so coolly about the homosexuals’ privilege to marry.

I pity you people and your lack of morals.

This is why people think you’re a troll. You constantly accuse people of “no morals”. You really have no idea what that word means.

Hmmmmmm…so this conversation w/ your daughter is cause enough for YOU to make a post on a thread that is 102 pages long and was last posted on a week ago? All I see below is that YOU merely have used this convo to ONCE AGAIN spout YOUR ideology on the subject….ya know, the same old shit…..over&over&over.

Originally posted by jhco50:

I was talking to my youngest daughter tonight on the phone. I was telling her about the Abortion thread.

Can she NOT read? Can she NOT form an opinion for herself? Does she need YOU to interpret and filter and spin all of the very serious & diverse discussion on the issue that IS THIS THREAD? Is she soooo “disturbed” by this thread that SHE is unable to join it and present her own viewpoints on the issue? She could even do it anon,,,,although knowing it is YOUR daughter would be preferable (by ME).

I had mentioned the arguments over a year ago while she was still pregnant and she told me that when I told her about this thread and the way people wanted to have the right to kill the unborn she become upset. She said she went down to their laundry room and cried.

AND? SO? I don’t have any too much of a problem w/ emotional appeals being used on this forum…..AS LONG AS those making them do realize them for what they are and understand that they don’t “counter & cancel” cold, rational logic.

I know you all think abortion is just another law and nothing whatsoever is wrong with the unneeded killing of our unborn,

NO! Absolutely N O ! What YOU “know” is nothing more than the “spin” YOU put on our thinking//opinions. AND, our thinking//opinions (at least I know MINE do) run much, MUCH deeper than we will EVER BE ABLE to put into words and post them on this forum.

This action, YOU so often indulge in, of YOUR “knowing” so much about ""you all"" is damn sickening. YOU come across as believing YOU are a clairvoyant. All I see is a very biased, bigoted, ultra conservative that has a very closed mind,,,,won’t respond to points being made that disagree w/ YOURS,,,and, when YOU do respond…it is merely insults (like how YOU say I think I am God, know it all, and can’t handle discussion w/ those who disagree w/ ME).

We already know,,,ad nauseum,,what YOUR opinions on abortion (along w/ several other issues) are. What we don’t know is what YOUR substantial, logical, rational basis is for having them. YOU usually refuse to respond to most all “requests” for it. YOU state that YOU are on this forum to provide to the “younger folk here” a different opinion base than the “bad liberal” one so prevalent here. YET, ya come off looking like the fool…the crazy, ranting guy standing on his porch, shaking his fist telling the kids to hold down the noise as they games across the street from ya.

AND, as for some of the “conservative support” that shows up from time-2-time…I can’t help but wonder if they aren’t merely some of those “McDonald’s coffee klatsch” guys you know and have cajoled into logging on here…..even the Gay one that ya sooooo detest as an abomination.

News flash, I have MODERATELY conservative viewpoints on some issues. I chuckle when YOU so rabidly accuse me of being ""ultra-liberal"".

….but many, many people find abortion to be an abomination.SO? This is little less than an outright emotional appeal. How does this support YOUR ideology? Just because EVEN A HUGE MAJORITY believes something doesn’t mean it is “right”,,,even “best” for them,,,and should be believed by the small minority. NOW, address THAT. Quit dicking around and actually respond to a direct challenging question…FOR ONCE.

I feel sad that we as a civilization have a need to kill another human and actually argue the merits of it.

THIS from a man that does this very thing himself… when it comes to guns & daily carrying one. AND,,btw,,sadness is an emotional appeal…..NOT a rational reason to ban//control abortion. DAMN, doesn’t THAT sound a lot like what “ultra-liberals” want to do w/ GUNS??

I pity you people and your lack of morals.

Well, “we” pity YOU and those who live around YOU…for several reasons. I can use the general “we” if YOU can use the general “you ppl”.

It makes me sad that you consider the killing of the unborn as a virtue on your part.

(Hint: ""…on your part"" is being redundant) SHOW ME where “we” have held our opinion on abortion to be anything near a “virtue”. THEN, show me some kind of decent, rational response YOU HAVE MADE that backs up this opinion of yours. OH, btw, ""being sad"" is another emotional appeal.

To read all of the really worthless excuses to commit this abomination is heartbreaking and has me wondering if the world as we see it now is fit to continue. Maybe the extinction of humanity would be the best thing for this earth.

Wow, an Olympic class emotional appeal combined w/ an arrogant audacity to assess good argument points as being ""really worthless excuses""…..which YOU have never actually present anything much in the way off rational, reasonable reasons as to why YOU can so zealously hold these sentiments.

Dood, are YOU not able to understand why I have great concerns about YOU et.al. having & carrying guns when YOU say things like the above? Yes, yes…I know (and mostly deeply agree w/) the “talking points” involved in the “gun issue” and see that YOU do also. YET, as YOU so often demonstrate on this forum….YOUR idea of sane usage of these “talking points” on issues can be quite OBTUSELY different that those “we” have…..AND, you so clumsily defend that difference. AND, don’t be giving me any shit about YOUR “right” to have a “different” opinion. What I want to know is why YOU believe it is “right” that we must share, bow down to, or even respect these opinions of YOURS.

ABORTION IS A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE. YOUR ideology is what stymies a lot of decent, realistic progress for our society to have a workable consensus on it and just “move on” and deal w/ many other societal issues,,,,issues that desperately cry for resolution, also.

Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

“That… Makes no sense.”

It makes perfect sense.

“And what are you basing this assumption on, exactly?”

your mother told me

God,because God.

Somewhere,,,in some very remote, unsophisticated VILLAGE….an “exceptionally unique individual” has gone missing and has now shown up on our doorstep here.

AND, dammitall…..ya’d think I’d be the ONE PERSON who would be able to have an iota of “understanding” just what he is saying using his “unique style of speaking”. 0¿~

“Somewhere,,,in some very remote, unsophisticated VILLAGE….an “exceptionally unique individual” has gone missing and has now shown up on our doorstep here.”

I lol’d so hard.

AND, dammitall…..ya’d think I’d be the ONE PERSON who would be able to have an iota of “understanding” just what he is saying using his “unique style of speaking”. 0¿~

Gee thanks,I think….. :D (Im gonna have to look iota up)

Wow,I ask a simple question,that question led to a tornado,and was considered a troll.

Can you explain why is having an abortion OK and not “bad”

Karma

To be honest Karma, when I made the post you refer to, I was a bit emotional I guess. Hearing that my daughter was upset about this subject pissed me off. That is why I posted on this thread like I did. Of course I will spout my ideology, just like you and so many others do. That is what these threads are about. Some ideologies are more moral than others, though. And you know what else? I hear the same old crap over and over too. Let’s face it, we are two old dogs, set in our ways. You represent everything I dislike about democrats. You represent the lack of morality present in that party, the intentional destruction of our financial health in the name of paying off your supporters by way of “bailout”. You strive to destroy society in the name of fairness and then call conservatives bigots if they don’t fall into line with your dislike of everything American.

My daughter won’t come on this site as she is busy raising her daughters and has a foul outlook on this site. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but she has her own opinions and I have a feeling she would kick you where it hurt if she ever met you. She is conservative and doesn’t need you to supply her with your social help. Her and her husband are proud Americans and make their own way.

Don’t tell me no Karma. You have made your desires to abortion abundantly clear. Every oddball thread on this forum has had your support. You would completely tear down our society for your own selfish desires. I get all of this from this forum and what you have said in your posts, in between your rants at me. Just like you think you know me enough to call me a bigot when I challenge your unintelligent ideologies. All you know about me is what you read on this forum.

I’m pretty sure we know what your opinions are as well…ad nauseum. Now tell me, why do I have to explain to you and others why I hold the beliefs I do? Have you told anyone why you hold the beliefs you do? Of course not, but then you expect me to explain myself, as if to say my thoughts are wrong and you need to analyze them to bring me around to your way of thinking. I’m not stupid and I can see right through you and your line of BS. Why do you think I challenge you so easily?

If you have “moderately” conservative values, I have yet to see them. Everything I read on here is just liberal claptrap. And then you attack all of the other conservatives because they don’t fall for your ideals either. Smooth move there. You even manage to attack my friends as well. You are a piece of work.

….but many, many people find abortion to be an abomination. SO?

Look at the loathing you have of those who believe in a moral society. The lack of respect for a society that shuns your belief system as that of a virtueless person.

Just because EVEN A HUGE MAJORITY believes something doesn’t mean it is “right”,,,even “best” for them,,,and should be believed by the small minority.

That quip is a bit hard to decipher as usual. You are telling me and others that even though a huge majority believes something, they are wrong? And that we need the minority, such as you, to show us the way? Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. That was just arrogant.

Of course, you don’t hold your opinion on abortion as a virtue, you have to have virtues first. Yes, I said excuses, that is all I have heard from the pro-abortion side. Excuses and demanding tamer sounding names to make them feel like they are right in their positions. How can you possibly call me irrational when you hold such a view as killing the unborn, because that is exactly what you are suggesting with your posts.

I don’t give a crap about your concerns. I hold the same ones about your stability, pardner. And for you to tell me my defenses on the issues are clumsy when most of your posts are nothing but rants? Most of them directed directly at me? Now that is a hoot. I will tell you this…as time goes on, and with a new administration in office, your ideologies are going to go by the wayside as belonging to the defeated left.

Some truth for a change. Abortion is a serious issue. What you consider progress is a constant deterioration of society’s morals. Maybe it is time you revisit your ideologies and figure out what is an accepted norm and what is just so much horsepucky.

Originally posted by ZombiestookmyTV:

“Somewhere,,,in some very remote, unsophisticated VILLAGE….an “exceptionally unique individual” has gone missing and has now shown up on our doorstep here.”

I lol’d so hard.

AND, dammitall…..ya’d think I’d be the ONE PERSON who would be able to have an iota of “understanding” just what he is saying using his “unique style of speaking”. 0¿~

Gee thanks,I think….. :D (Im gonna have to look iota up)

Wow,I ask a simple question,that question led to a tornado,and was considered a troll.

Can you explain why is having an abortion OK and not “bad”

Ok, here’s my two cents worth:

It’s not so much that abortion is “OK” as much as it is that it’s not as bad as the “moral majority” made it out to be in the late seventies and thereafter.  It certainly does not rise to the level of “murder” as many like to proclaim.  Unfortunately many in the christian establishment have become so caught up in politicizing issues tangental to spiritual ones that they have lost their ability to discern what is truly right and wrong and by how much they are right or wrong.

Many people forget that Jerry Fawell praised the Roe v. Wade decision saying it was a good decision.  It would only be later, after the formation of the Moral Majority that he would change his tune to match the other pastors in the club.  They, in fact, came together originally to simply help Bob Jones University from losing it’s tax exempt status for it’s political activities. Those who were alive back then have mostly forgotten all that, and the rest are too young to have direct knowledge of it.

So, let’s see what the bible says on the issue of abortion.  You see, the bible is pretty clear on the shedding of innocent blood.

Exodus 21:22-25
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

the part about “so that her fruit depart” means that she loses the baby because of the injury – equivallent to causing a miscarriage or, and abortion.  Now, if it were truely murder, the man causing the harm would be expected to run to a city of refuge only to be turned over to town elders as outlined in Deuteronomy 19:12-13
“the killer shall be sent for by the town elders, be brought back from the city, and be handed over to the avenger of blood to die. Show no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.”

As we can see, these two instances are treated differently.  God does not see the causing of a miscarriage (an abortion) to be equal to the killing of another.  If God saw them the same, the punishments would be the same as in Exodus 24 “eye for eye…”.

Unfortunately, nearly 40 years of indoctrination that abortion is wrong is hard to undo with clear cut evidence from the bible itself to show that God’s ways are not the ways of these wayward pastors pushing a misguided fanaticism upon their laypeople.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Just because EVEN A HUGE MAJORITY believes something doesn’t mean it is “right”,,,even “best” for them,,,and should be believed by the small minority.

That quip is a bit hard to decipher as usual. You are telling me and others that even though a huge majority believes something, they are wrong? And that we need the minority, such as you, to show us the way? Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. That was just arrogant.

So, Copernicus was wrong in suggesting that the Earth revolved around the Sun when the huge MAJORITY believed and taught that the sun actually revolved around the Earth?? Allow people to believe a lie because the majority believes the lie and doesn’t want to be bothered with truth, eh?

Are you sure your above post is foolproof?Because I see a dozen things go wrong there.Recheck it again until you figure out your BIG mistake.

Originally posted by Highlnder:

Originally posted by jhco50:

Just because EVEN A HUGE MAJORITY believes something doesn’t mean it is “right”,,,even “best” for them,,,and should be believed by the small minority.

That quip is a bit hard to decipher as usual. You are telling me and others that even though a huge majority believes something, they are wrong? And that we need the minority, such as you, to show us the way? Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. That was just arrogant.

So, Copernicus was wrong in suggesting that the Earth revolved around the Sun when the huge MAJORITY believed and taught that the sun actually revolved around the Earth?? Allow people to believe a lie because the majority believes the lie and doesn’t want to be bothered with truth, eh?

There is a bit of difference between scientific advancement and social program advancement. Karma wants a government to pay for every need of those unwilling to produce by taxing those who produce. A government that has full control of people and their earning capacity. Socialism. He wants gay marriage and open boarders to allow illegals to enter the country in search of our social programs. This is what he is referring to.

Killing our unborn is not a directive from the bible. You are interpreting a passage to fit the situation you support. Christians are good at doing that. That is one of the major reasons there are so many different religions.

I am not indoctrinated as you suggest. I used to ride the fence with no opinion. It was when I saw the growing abuse of Roe vs Wade and especially late term and partial birth abortion that I dropped off the fence. Things like abortions that don’t kill the baby and it is born, completing the abortion by laying the baby on a shelf to starve to death. I would think that would be a cold lonely way to die. At that point, I consider that premeditated murder.

partial birth abortion

As far as I know, it’s illegal. Thus, not supporting abortions in general due to it is ridiculous.

Things like abortions that don’t kill the baby and it is born

I have a suprise for you. Everything fails every once in a while. Why ban it because of that?

Oh, and, it’s probably illegal already to not care for the child (since it was born, no longer a fetus) if it survies an abortion

Bush made partial birth abortion illegal and Obama made it legal again. I don’t know why he would do that, but he did.

Once that baby is born, it is not a fetus anymore Lucas, it is a full fledged baby. You wouldn’t be suggesting we start killing infants would you? I must be getting tired as I’m repeating you. If the mother asked for an abortion and it failed, the infant will not be taken care of and allowed to die. It is legal to do so.

You do realise jhco that a person that supports abortion doesn’t therefore support ‘partial birth abortion’…you paint everything black and white.

Here are the current laws for New Zealand – as you will see they don’t allow ‘partial birth abortion’. That’s just insane.

Current New Zealand law allows for abortions to be performed for the following reasons, providing the abortion is approved by two certifying consultants and the pregnancy is less than 20 weeks old:

to save the life of the woman (even if after 20 weeks)
to preserve the physical health of the woman
to preserve the mental health of the woman
foetal impairment
in cases of incest

Other factors which may be considered, but are not in themselves grounds for abortion, are:

cases of rape
certain social factors (e.g., the girl’s age in a teenage pregnancy).

Bush made partial birth abortion illegal and Obama made it legal again. I don’t know why he would do that, but he did.

Source plees.

Once that baby is born, it is not a fetus anymore Lucas, it is a full fledged baby

Wasn’t that what I said?

You wouldn’t be suggesting we start killing infants would you?

I personally can’t ever recall saying that.

If the mother asked for an abortion and it failed, the infant will not be taken care of and allowed to die. It is legal to do so.

Again, source?

Lucas, It is too late to do any searches. In fact this will be my last post tonight.

Yes, that is what you said, and my being tired showed up well right there. No, you didn’t say we should start killing infants. If I have time and remember, I will search this out for you tomorrow.

Edit: Here is one link I think.
http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm

Jhco, you keep ignoring comments that are important. You need to understand a few things:

1. Arguing that those who disagree with you have no morals is silly and false.
2. Arguing that those who disagree with you wish to tear down society is silly and false.
3. Bringing up case studies is silly and insignificant.

Those are the three points you use against abortion. In reality, it is just your opinion that abortion shouldn’t be allowed, as it is just your opinion that homosexual marriage shouldn’t be allowed. It could be my opinion that we should have a dictatorship, or that all trees should be burned. But don’t pretend there is a logical explanation behind any of that, especially not if the things you bring up aren’t logical at all.

Originally posted by FlabbyWoofWoof:

You do realise jhco that a person that supports abortion doesn’t therefore support ‘partial birth abortion’…you paint everything black and white.

Here are the current laws for New Zealand – as you will see they don’t allow ‘partial birth abortion’. That’s just insane.

Current New Zealand law allows for abortions to be performed for the following reasons, providing the abortion is approved by two certifying consultants and the pregnancy is less than 20 weeks old:

to save the life of the woman (even if after 20 weeks)
to preserve the physical health of the woman
to preserve the mental health of the woman
foetal impairment
in cases of incest

Other factors which may be considered, but are not in themselves grounds for abortion, are:

cases of rape
certain social factors (e.g., the girl’s age in a teenage pregnancy).

If you will notice Flabby, your country has just a few excuses for allowing an abortion. It isn’t like that in the US. It was supposed to be, but people here have taken abortion to new heights. I see nothing in New Zealand laws (those you have posted) that allow abortion on a whim. They don’t say your country can abort a baby if you feel like it or that you can use it for a form of birth control. There seems to be some misunderstanding about what we are arguing here. The argument on this thread is giving the women the right to abort just because she wants to.