Abortion page 72

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I don’t think abortion is an option. It’s (in essence) murder. It’s killing a life. Yes, it’s a would-be life, but that’s still life. And all life should have a chance to live, not to be killed before it can take its first breath. Also, if you aren’t ready to be a parent, you shouldn’t have had sex anyway.

 
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Originally posted by TaylorFire93:

Also, if you aren’t ready to be a parent, you shouldn’t have had sex anyway.

So people should wait with sex until they are 35?

And all life should have a chance to live, not to be killed before it can take its first breath.

If I was an anaerobe bacteria I would be so offended right now.
In case you don’t understand what I’m getting at, you’re using a strange definition of life.

Also, are you a vegan? Eating eggs is bad, following your logic. Actually, eating anything is bad, following your logic, since you call killing murder. Fuzzy definitions and all…

 
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Yes, it’s a would-be life, but that’s still life.

This argument is invalid, since it also works for sperm.

And all life should have a chance to live, not to be killed before it can take its first breath.

Not an objective argument.

Also, if you aren’t ready to be a parent, you shouldn’t have had sex anyway.

Forcing ideals upon others is great until others start forcing theirs upon you. How would you feel if you were required to walk around naked because everyone forces you to?

 
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Originally posted by TaylorFire93:

I don’t think abortion is an option. It’s (in essence) murder.

Meat is murder, man, murder!

Also, if you aren’t ready to be a parent, you shouldn’t have had sex anyway.

Easier said than done.

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by TaylorFire93:

Also, if you aren’t ready to be a parent, you shouldn’t have had sex anyway.

So people should wait with sex until they are 35?

Preferably until they are married. At least until they have the sense God gave a piss ant.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Preferably until they are married.

As I said before, easier said than done.

At least until they have the sense God gave a piss ant.

This now makes me wonder just how many pro-life arguments involve a deity of some sort.

 
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I can’t argue that Tenco.

In the South there is an old saying that “He doesn’t have the sense God gave a piss ant.” I think defining it as involving a deity would be over reading it.

 
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I don’t understand that connection between marriage, a significantly increased sense of responsibility and a significantly reduced drive to have fun.

 
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No it’s not EPR. Marriage is the traditional union between a man and a woman and when you are supposed to enjoy what is special between you. Do you want to put on a pair of dirty socks in the morning or do you want nice special socks that have been saved just for you?

Wow, I never thought I would use dirty socks for an analogy…..

 
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I can clean my socks without having to sign a contract telling everyone that they are mine.

And even if I had signed that contract that still would not necessarily keep me from wading through a puddle of mud with them.

 
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Abortion is wrong because it denies a baby its chance at life.

Now excuse me while I eat some chicken eggs that were cracked open and cooked before having a chance to hatch, and some bacon which came from a pig that lived in a box at a factory farm!!!

No, I’m not a vegan, I am just saying it is impossible to be anti-abortion if you aren’t one.

 
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Marriage is the traditional union between a man and a woman

No, it really is not. There’s more to the world than just your state.

Preferably until they are married. At least until they have the sense God gave a piss ant.

The “god argument” is nonsense, since it is not scientifically proven to exist. Basing laws on religion is pretty much a restriction of rights/privileges for those that do not believe in it.

Do you want to put on a pair of dirty socks in the morning or do you want nice special socks that have been saved just for you?

Are you telling me you can decide what people want and restrict those who want something else?

No, I’m not a vegan, I am just saying it is impossible to be anti-abortion if you aren’t one.

But Mafefe, it is obvious that animals are inferior beings! Who cares if a fetus doesn’t have rights either?! They must have, but animals shouldn’t.

 
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Dark, You made me smile. First of all, I think what you mean is there is more to the world than just my country. Although my state just turned down the civil union bill our state government tried to slip in under the radar.

You are trying to take an old saying and bring it in as a religious argument. It is not and doesn’t pretend to be. Think about what was said.

Uhm, I don’t know how to respond to that restriction argument. I didn’t actually say I personally had the ability to restrict the wearing of dirty socks. LOL.

 
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Originally posted by EPR89:

I can clean my socks without having to sign a contract telling everyone that they are mine.

And even if I had signed that contract that still would not necessarily keep me from wading through a puddle of mud with them.

I don’t know if I’m just in a good mood or your carrying on with that sock analogy just struck me funny, especially the mud puddle part.

I’m not saying we can control what people can do when it comes to sex. We would be mighty busy. But, our society has certain values that we teach our youngins and we try to teach them not only the how they should behave, but we try to relay the consequences of their actions. These actions have an effect on those around them and their conquest. You get a girl pregnant and it effects her whole family…and it can effect theirs. This is where I bring in the responsibility of your actions.

I have seen the excuse of some that they just can’t control themselves. That is hogwash. What they are really saying is that they are willing to hurt people for their own self-centered pleasure. People can be so selfish and don’t care what the damage they cause is as long as they fulfill their own desires. This is where I get a bit sick to my stomach and begin to look down on these people as being uncouth, of low morals and values, and them being just a pimple on the ass of life.

We humans have control of ourselves and society gives us the rules through our cultures. When we come to a point that human life becomes valueless, we have given up what makes us distinct from animals. I would like to think we as humans are unique, but it is becoming harder to believe in that. Some of these posters are dead set against wars and lament the killing of people…then turn around and promote abortion. Does that really make any sense?

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Some of these posters are dead set against wars and lament the killing of people…then turn around and promote abortion. Does that really make any sense?

When you put it like that it doesn’t, but it’s not like that, so your point’s a little moot.


I’m going to bring up a point/question that Karma made a while ago again:

What happens when abortion gets illigalized?

 
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LOL, tenco…most of us know the answer to that one.
BUT, it will be most interesting to hear what he has to say on this “return to the days of old”.
He (and I,,,as well) are definitely old enough to remember them.

 
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First of all, I think what you mean is there is more to the world than just my country.

Some American states recognise and perform homosexual marriages. You not knowing this only reinforces my statement.

You are trying to take an old saying and bring it in as a religious argument. It is not and doesn’t pretend to be. Think about what was said.

If it’s not about any religious arguments, then it falls down to restricting basically everyone to do exactly as you do during your daily life. So, here:

Uhm, I don’t know how to respond to that restriction argument. I didn’t actually say I personally had the ability to restrict the wearing of dirty socks. LOL.

No, but you are saying that you know what people “should” want, so you’d restrict people from doing what they “shouldn’t” want. People, according to you, should wait with sex until they’re married. A valid viewpoint would be that you waited until marriage before you had sex. You are effectively trying to restrict others from doing so by denying abortion. It’s not a full restriction, but I think the analogy still applies.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by jhco50:
Some of these posters are dead set against wars and lament the killing of people…then turn around and promote abortion. Does that really make any sense?

When you put it like that it doesn’t, but it’s not like that, so your point’s a little moot.


I’m going to bring up a point/question that Karma made a while ago again:

What happens when abortion gets illigalized?

Tenco, abortion in the past, when it was illegal, was much less. It was done by doctors who worked out of sight of the mainstream medical community. Of course you will hear horror stories from those who wish to have legal abortion, but there were not that many abortions or horror stories to speak of.

What we have done through the courts is to multiply the problems of abortion 100 fold. We have made things like partial birth abortion. Doctors who have aborted babies that still managed to live we have allowed doctors to lay them on a shelf to die of starvation. We have pictures of babies that have tried to fight off the blades of tools that cut them to pieces, cuts all over their fingers and arms. Abortion is not pretty legal or illegal. This is why I have over the years become so adamantly against it, legal or illegal.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

First of all, I think what you mean is there is more to the world than just my country.

Some American states recognise and perform homosexual marriages. You not knowing this only reinforces my statement.

You are trying to take an old saying and bring it in as a religious argument. It is not and doesn’t pretend to be. Think about what was said.

If it’s not about any religious arguments, then it falls down to restricting basically everyone to do exactly as you do during your daily life. So, here:

Uhm, I don’t know how to respond to that restriction argument. I didn’t actually say I personally had the ability to restrict the wearing of dirty socks. LOL.

No, but you are saying that you know what people “should” want, so you’d restrict people from doing what they “shouldn’t” want. People, according to you, should wait with sex until they’re married. A valid viewpoint would be that you waited until marriage before you had sex. You are effectively trying to restrict others from doing so by denying abortion. It’s not a full restriction, but I think the analogy still applies.

Yes, some states do…and they are not recognized in the other states. We don’t have the same culture you have in your country and the people here are pretty set in their traditions and values. This is for another thread though.

Maybe I should let Karma explain this. :) We have colloquial sayings in different parts of the country. Just because they mention God doesn’t make them a religious statement. I cannot restrict anyone to do exactly as I do in my daily life, nor would I want to. I am an individual and live my life as a free man. However, I have certain views on life, just like everyone else does. What my views are and how much I can affect the values of my society depends on the views of society as a whole.

Let’s say I am against abortion, but the whole of society is for it. My views will be lost in the mass of society. I can state them all day long, but I am just one voice. Luckily, I am not really in the minority and my views have more meaning. Roe vs Wade was a Supreme Court decision and was not really a popular view. We were forced to abide by it. Basically, one woman (who now admits it was a mistake) and the court decided on this.

Of course I know what our culture is. You don’t live as long as me and not know what is acceptable in our culture. Yes, I believe people should wait until they are married to have sex. My reason is sex is something special to be shared with the one you love. It isn’t just to have a good time when you or both of you are drunk, on drugs, or any of the other excuses used. Yes, I did wait. Obviously, I was able to control my animal urges. I also have never had a need to kill one of my children as birth control because my so called animal urges took over my mind and body. BTW, I consider that a really poor excuse. Denying abortion is not a restriction like you think it is, it is denying the killing of another human being, murder being a restriction laid down by the laws of society.

 
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Abortion is bad 100% of the time!!

If a baby will be born with a birth defect and will be in constant pain, it is GODS WILL and going against it is BLASPHEMY!!

 
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Tenco, abortion in the past, when it was illegal, was much less. It was done by doctors who worked out of sight of the mainstream medical community.

Abortion rates don’t differ much when abortion is made illegal, we can see this from the abortion rates in Western Europe and Africa. Illegal abortion is not just done by doctors – often it is done by the pregnant woman herself: “They use bicycle spokes, knitting needles … putting sticks, pens through the cervix.”

Here is a very informative PDF from the World Health Organisation on unsafe abortion. I highly recommend it but please note, there are some graphic/upsetting images.

Please don’t state your opinions as facts – at least not without evidence. Tenco asked what happens when abortion is made illegal. The simple answer is: abortion rates don’t differ and women die.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:

Tenco, abortion in the past, when it was illegal, was much less.

How far into the past?

What we have done through the courts is to multiply the problems of abortion 100 fold.

You mean we’ve made it less safe? Yeah, Imma call bullshit one that.

Doctors who have aborted babies that still managed to live

Are you talking about the doctors or the fetuses now?

we have allowed doctors to lay them on a shelf to die of starvation.

Is it just me or does that not make any sense?

We have pictures of babies that have tried to fight off the blades of tools that cut them to pieces, cuts all over their fingers and arms.

Okay, so are you talking about after or before birth?

Abortion is not pretty legal or illegal.

I doubt it’s prettier illegal than legal.

This is why I have over the years become so adamantly against it, legal or illegal.

So don’t get one.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Of course I know what our culture is. You don’t live as long as me and not know what is acceptable in my culture.

Fix’d.

Yes, I believe people should wait until they are married to have sex.

Good for you.

My reason is sex is something special to be shared with the one you love. It isn’t just to have a good time when you or both of you are drunk, on drugs, or any of the other excuses used.

And other people are not you.

Yes, I did wait. Obviously, I was able to control my animal urges.

And that may or may not have had led to mental and/or physical problems in your future.

And the “animal” urges are just about as “animal” as wanting to eat is when you’re hungry.

I also have never had a need to kill one of my children as birth control

Good for you, I doubt anyone often does that, though.

BTW, I consider that a really poor excuse. Denying abortion is not a restriction like you think it is,

What do we think it is, then?

it is denying the killing of another human being, murder being a restriction laid down by the laws of society.

Didn’t we already go over this?

 
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You asked and I answered. I realize the answers I gave may not be popular, but they are honest.

 
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Originally posted by jhco50:
Just because they mention God doesn’t make them a religious statement.

Please explain this. Since “God” is pretty much a RELIGIOUS thing…invoking His name pretty much IS a religious thing. Yes, it can be a very, VERY hollow utterance w/ little-2-nothing intended to be of a “religious” nature. BUT, how is one to tell the difference? Why do ppl use “God’s” name in “vain”? Cuz they’re assholes?

I cannot restrict anyone to do exactly as I do in my daily life, nor would I want to. I am an individual and live my life as a free man. However, I have certain views on life, just like everyone else does. What my views are and how much I can affect the values of my society depends on the views of society as a whole.

WOW…seriously, THAT whole thing is sooooo sophomoric that I’m not sure I can adequately respond. It is full of superficial, gung-ho, platitudes that reflect a particular “shallowness” that is the basic
“platform” from which Tea-Party-like values are drawn.

ONE: I cannot restrict anyone… BUT, a person can VOTE for ppl who will.

TWO: …nor would I want to. Errrrr…it certainly seems ya’d like to restrict abortions and all that prancing by Gays in parades.

THREE: I am an individual.. Well, imagine that.

FOUR: ..live my life as a free man. Well, whatever the hell THAT means. Sounds a lot like “filler” to me.

FIVE: I have certain views…everyone else does Well, hold the presses….we have a new development here.

SIX: What my views are and how much I can affect the values of my society depends on the views of society as a whole. First, I thought ya said ya didn’t want to “restrict” (affect?) anyone to do as YOU. NOW, ya’re talking about how ya CAN AFFECT what ppl do via their “values”. When ones values don’t run deep…they are easily seen to go quickly in whatever direction needed at the momment.

Let’s say I am against abortion, but the whole of society is for it. My views will be lost in the mass of society. I can state them all day long, but I am just one voice.

AND? SO? If the “whole” has a stance that YOU don’t have….just what would be the point of YOUR voice? Is it the same as what YOU say ya’re doing on this forum….giving the “kids” a glimpse of what “conservatism” is like? Ya probably wanna “ratchet up” on that a weeeebit.

Luckily, I am not really in the minority and my views have more meaning.

Well, THAT depends on what ya mean by minority//majority. The majority is for CHOICE. Likely, an even greater majority is PERSONALLY AGAINST ABORTION. That is until the little “problem” has the nerve to “visit” them.

AND, tell me….just why does YOUR views have more meaning? 999 ppl out of 1000 who “believe” in something can still be “wrong”.

Roe vs Wade was a Supreme Court decision and was not really a popular view.

SO? Do YOU ever listen to yourself? We are a Republic….NOT a Democracy where “popular views” prevail. The SC decided laws against abortion were UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Do YOU get that?

We were forced to abide by it.

Hmmmmm…abiding by THE LAW of the land is something one must be FORCED to do???….rather than respectfully recognize not only the merit for it in of itself,,,,but for the very basis of which our entire set of laws are established.

Basically, one woman (who now admits it was a mistake) and the court decided on this.

YOU really don’t understand much about law…do ya? It really doesn’t matter one bit what the woman thought then or now. The law was wrong and the Supreme Court upheld lower court decisions that said it was. It wasn’t about THAT woman….it was about ALL WOMEN. It was about what is CONSTITUTIONALLY RIGHT & JUST.

Of course I know what our culture is. You don’t live as long as me and not know what is acceptable in our culture.

WHAT? I give a shit how long one has lived….they WILL NEVER KNOW what our culture is. It changes constantly. Lately, it changes overnight. The ONLY “culture” a fool knows is their own.

Yes, I believe people should wait until they are married to have sex. My reason is sex is something special to be shared with the one you love.

Well….good for ya. So, tell me….do YOU seriously think this is something that will “catch on”?

It isn’t just to have a good time when you or both of you are drunk, on drugs, or any of the other excuses used.

Good grief Gurdy….what a priggish concept: Anyone who doesn’t do as I do is some low-life, drug-booze riddled, good-time-luster. Wow…I guess a whoooooooooooooole lot of ppl should just kill their sorry asses and go directly to hell.

Yes, I did wait. Obviously, I was able to control my animal urges.

LOL..maybe ya didn’t have any. BUT, the point is: do YOU seriously believe all ppl//situations are the same….the same as YOU & YOURS? Are YOU that unable to grasp the concept that YOU (more specifically…your ideology) aren’t the center of the Universe?

I also have never had a need to kill one of my children as birth control because my so called animal urges took over my mind and body. BTW, I consider that a really poor excuse.

Well, damn fine for YOU. Are YOU seriously trying to use YOUR life as a manifesto for how society should conduct itself when they are in a situation//need for an abortion?

Denying abortion is not a restriction like you think it is, it is denying the killing of another human being, murder being a restriction laid down by the laws of society.

Lord have mercy. When will YOU drop this bullshit. Denying abortion MOST CERTAINLY IS A “RESTRICTION”.

AND, it is NOT a “murder”……..by the laws laid down by society. While society—in part or in whole—does choose to see it as “murder”,,,,the CONSTITUTION says otherwise. A mature society will either RESPECT the law or CHANGE it….according to the CONSTITUTION. A mature person DENIES NOTHING…..they UNDERSTAND FULLY the issues of abortion and don’t let emtions rules their logic.