Abortion page 86

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Originally posted by jhco50:

I would accept an abortion and it would have to be almost immediate, like with the morning after pill.

Just want to clarify something here—is the morning after pill considered an abortion? Or is it contraceptive? Or neither?

In this case of abortion after rape being justified, does that only include the morning after pill or the actual abortive procedure?

@simeng—Are you kidding me? Tone down the dialect a little, thanks.

I don’t know what to consider it to be honest. I guess it is an abortion since it is life at that point, but it is really a gray area there, isn’t it?

I would imagine it would include a procedure. However, if the morning after pill is used, there would be no reason for a procedure.

Originally posted by jhco50:
I guess it is an abortion since it is life at that point, but it is really a gray area there, isn’t it?

Super big gray area, to the point of being almost white, I would say. There are few ethical qualms with the morning after pill, since’s it’s hard to even establish if a pregnancy existed anyhow. If there is a beginning growth, it keeps it from attaching to the uterine lining, is my understanding. The part about abortion itself that is sad is that it cuts up a little body that is moving, and the morning after pill (a “panic” measure) involves none of this.

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Originally posted by jhco50:
I guess it is an abortion since it is life at that point, but it is really a gray area there, isn’t it?

Super big gray area, to the point of being almost white, I would say. There are few ethical qualms with the morning after pill, since’s it’s hard to even establish if a pregnancy existed anyhow. If there is a beginning growth, it keeps it from attaching to the uterine lining, is my understanding. The part about abortion itself that is sad is that it cuts up a little body that is moving, and the morning after pill (a “panic” measure) involves none of this.

Most abortions don’t either.

Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
The part about abortion itself that is sad is that it cuts up a little body that is moving, and the morning after pill (a “panic” measure) involves none of this.

Good thing that’s doesn’t happen in most abortions, though I will guess that that only happens fairly later on in the development due to what you described, since there are plenty of other ways to get rid of a fetus that cut it.

Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

You know, long ago I realized that you were a brick shy of finishing an outhouse. You rant at me with a few references to the subject at hand to disguise the insults, but you are so transparent. I picture you as just another old windbag with an odd idea on life. How about you work with some of the other posters a bit and give me a rest, you are tiring and answering your posts is boring.

In a post of yours on the “Hate Speech” thread, YOU bring up political correctness and being little more than just a bunch of “whining”. Well, all I see in your above posting is NOTHING BUT a bunch of whining about how I present STRONG agruements AGAINST your points.

• * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Originally posted by jhco50:

I said I accepted #1, but I’m not happy about it. Yes, a fertilized egg is for all intense and purposes a baby.

Then, let’s slap a diaper on it and bounce it on our knees. What is it that I pointed out above about how YOU soooo luv to play w/,,,spin,,,distort language (as in “cussing”) in order to bolster YOUR points? OH YEAH, calling a fetus a “baby” is little (NOTHING?) more than an appeal to emotions.

I am not happy about any abortions, but can accept that one point. Anything past that point is a no.

SERIOUSLY, do YOU actually believe that MOST ANYONE is “happy” about any abortions?

I believe Roe vs Wade was a mistake.

AND, I believe not having it was an EVEN GREATER MISTAKE. Have “we” not pointed out how Row v. Wade wasn’t the start of abortions……good grief man, pull yer head outta da “brown zone”.

Sometimes, even our Supreme Court can make a mistake.

Ya think? Yet, it is the SUPREME “referee” in this game we call govt…….a game that—while absolutely NOT PERFECT—is faaaaaar better than most alternatives….eh?

The original ruling was not so women could abort life on a whim.

Do tell? Why don’t YOU go look for the intent of this “original ruling” and present it to us in some form OTHER THAN MERELY YOUR OPINION? An “opinion” that is sooooo fucking full of bullshit if it seriously touts that Roe v. Wade was do women could get abortions ON A WHIM.

It got out of hand and seems to be getting worse. This could eventually become so out of hand that pro-abortionists would argue for killing a child because they don’t have enough to offer society.

Eeerrrr,,,,as opposed to aborting a fetus that many would “argue” most certainly would likely end up not having much to offer society….at least other than providing arrogant assholes someone to look down upon and point out how lazy they are,,,getting high,,,living off mom & (deadbeat?) dad. AND, in the more extreme cases…having proven they have sooooo little to offer society that they are removed from it (jail) or merely killed (cap.pun.).

I argue this subject because our young have nothing to go by and come on forums like this.

SERIOUSLY? Good grief, old man….do YOU actually read the shit YOU write? Do YOU not know how to say: “often have little to go by”? Are YOU trying to tell us that their parents are utter “failures”….that their friends and adults in their lives are utter failures…that most of the life around them is devoid of worthwhile “instruction”?

.AND, just what is wrong w/ “forums like this”? I think they are a marvel….a far superior method of being exposed to ideology, etc. than was I (TV was just being introduced to the world).

They hear the older posters declare something and believe what they hear as the truth when most of it is just so much BS.

Ya mean like the “BS” that YOU put out here?

BTW, I just luv the hypocrisy of how YOU call me a “potty mouth” & lacking in vocabulary……yet, think it just dandy to engage in “Lite Cussing” by shortening bullshit to BS and NOT be able to find another word to describe what ya mean. How inane can one get….and NOT see they are doing it? LOL

Let’s face it, a forum like this attracts all kinds of opinions without much in the way of actual substantial information. Yes, we can post links all day, but anyone who believes much of what they see on the internet needs to get out into the real world and talk to real people.

Good gawde, Maude…that paragraph is soooo dripping w/ irony,,,hypocrisy,,,stoooopidity that I don’t even want to touch it…in fear that it might “infect” me w/ the same.

You ask me why I am against abortion. Sometimes, deep inside, you know when something is wrong.

Good for YOU. NOW, can YOU realize that each & everyone of the rest of us just might have a similar functioning moral system…..AND, that it might NOT agree w/ yours?

If You don’t speak out, then it becomes a normal thing.

“NORMAL”…eh? Dood, there is a huuuuge differenct between “normal” and “acceptable”…acceptable becasue it is a necessary “evil” to handle an all-to-often “problem” in our social makeup. Hopefully—something I constatnly hold in my heart—there will come a day when abortions are either a thing of the past or extreeeemly rare.

Unfortunately, there are farrrr too many ppl just like YOU who can see ONLY the “problem” and are so imbued w/ pointing it out and bitching long & loudly about it & objecting to most efforts to find SOLUTIONS to this “problem” that little (much slower than desired?) progress is being made in this area.

Killing our own is wrong on so many levels. To hear people on this thread not only accept it, but promote it as a natural thing, a right, is depressing.

Aha…just as I suspected. YOU obviously having been listenting here,,,distorting what ya hear,,,or merely seeing someone’s post as an opportunity to trot out your biased bigotry…AGAIN.

I would like to believe that we as human beings are above killing our own.

And, yet we have wars (that YOU very likely “support”….even the sensless ones. YOU carry a gun…..what for, as added weight to keep ya from blowing away in a strong wind? Small worry, there is something called “professional recipocity”.

I have been told my morals are unnaturally high if I don’t accept abortion as a normal thing.

Seriously, drop the “normal” thing. YOU already have soooo little credibility here as it is.

I don’t think they are that high, but they may seem that way to those who have very low morals. I have a code I live by. I am proud to have morals and virtues to guide my way through this life.

Then again…since “morals” are highly subjective, all this pathetic proselytizing of YOURS seems to be little more that showing us that ya can pat yourself on the back.

Abortion just doesn’t fit in that code.

Well,,,,,good for YOU. NOW, please stop trying to “prove” the same isn’t also “good” for us.

I’m pretty sure what I said in my “long ago” post I was not whining. It was a straight forward post assessing your constant rants.

I must admit, I found the “slap a diaper” pretty funny. A fetus is basically a baby in it’s first stages of development. I know it is easier for you to call it something else to ease your concience. I do think it is extremely easy for the abortionists to abort the fetus, and in some cases I believe it makes them happy. Sorry, but if you think about how they argue for abortion, it comes across as they think it is a great birth control method.

Of course you would be for abortion. You are for every far left issue that comes along. Do I need to list some of them? Probably not, you know your ideals well. No roe vs wade was not the beginning of abortions, but it made abortion legal and the collateral damage has been devastating. You know what the original intent was if you would admit it, but you won’t because that would destroy your whole argument. You know, the one where you can kill legally and be happy about it knowing you subverted another moral you don’t have?

How do you know the fetus you abort will not have much to offer society. Did God die and put you in charge? Do you have an insight into the future no one else has? What a douche.

I write the posts, so evidently I know what’s in them. Bill Cosby once said, "When a child is born, they are brain damaged. When they become a teenager they become brain dead…and they don’t come back until they are 25. Teenagers don’t seem to listen to their parents. They think they know all there is to know about life. So when they come on a forum like this and listen to someone like you, they think you know what you are talking about. I know you don’t, but they don’t. I try to give them a wholesome view on life and you try to subvert them into a lifestyle that will make them outcasts of society.

If you just used some common sense and realized a lot of the people on here are kids you wouldn’t be so crude. I never claimed to be perfect, but I don’t have to drop the “F” bomb every other word. Perhaps you just don’t think.

Of course your morals don’t agree with mine. I have some and you don’t. Have you ever heard the saying, “Tell a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”? You are telling me abortion is a necessary evil to handle the problems of society? What did we do before abortion was becoming normalized in your world? I hope you are right about abortions becoming a thing of the past or rare, and you are right about me seeing a problem, a huge problem.

LOL! Everything that goes against your ideals is considered bigotry in your mind. Are you trying to tell me abortion is not normal in your world? It sounds like it is, the way your argue for it. And now you tell me morals are highly subjective? Morals vary a small amount, but not as much as you would like everyone to believe. Until you stop ranting about how I should accept your ideals, which I consider suspect, I will continue to educate you in the normality of life.

Jhco, you speak as if abortion is an entirely new thing to this generation (we’ve established that it isn’t) and it’s up to people from your generation to educate younger people – making Karma out to be almost evil because he fails to do so. People from your generation shared the same pro-choice views as people today. Your morals are your personal morals, they do not automatically apply to everybody else, be it from your generation or not.

What did we do before abortion was becoming normalized in your world?

Had abortions.

In all of my research into abortion and reproductive health, you are one of, if not the biggest factor pushing me into pursuing work in abortion counselling.

Para, you are correct that my generation needs to educate yours. After all, you are our grandchildren and we do have an obligation. But keep in mind your generation needs to listen and then make your decisions.

Abortion is not new to this generation, but it was not as widespread/prevalent as it is now. You hear how abortions were performed in back alleys when it was illegal, but they weren’t. Doctors who believed in them performed them. I have heard the horror stories of self-mutilation myself and they were just stories. My generation was not pro-choice and we still aren’t. Abortion was an abomination to us, as a whole.

I’m glad I could help with your decisions. Let’s hope you become an honest counseler and not just push your own biases.

Originally posted by jhco50:

Abortion is not new to this generation, but it was not as widespread/prevalent as it is now.

Well you don’t hear too much about abortions that took place 1000 years ago, so it might not be completely accurate.

You hear how abortions were performed in back alleys when it was illegal, but they weren’t.

Yeah, sometimes it was in a shed.

My generation was not pro-choice and we still aren’t.

That’s presumably one of the most ignorant things you’ve said in this thread.

I’m glad I could help with your decisions. Let’s hope you become an honest counseler and not just push your own biases.

And her’s would be worse?

I have heard the horror stories of self-mutilation myself and they were just stories.

Okay then.

Originally posted by jhco50:

I’m glad I could help with your decisions. Let’s hope you become an honest counseler and not just push your own biases.

I’m very much intending to push my own bias of helping a pregnant woman to decide what is best for her according to her own wishes and individual circumstance. Sorry about that!

Originally posted by ParaNoir:

I have heard the horror stories of self-mutilation myself and they were just stories.

Okay then.

Originally posted by jhco50:

I’m glad I could help with your decisions. Let’s hope you become an honest counseler and not just push your own biases.

I’m very much intending to push my own bias of helping a pregnant woman to decide what is best for her according to her own wishes and individual circumstance. Sorry about that!

Your link was for Kenya abortions, not the USA, which is basically where the arguments are aimed at.

So you plan to be like the doctor my wife and I saw when she was pregnant with our youngest daughter. She nagged us about aborting the pregnancy because it could have some deformity, considering my wife was 37. Now my could be deformed daughter has given us two wonderful granddaughters. Are you going to nag your patients into an abortion?

Originally posted by jhco50:

So you plan to be like the doctor my wife and I saw when she was pregnant with our youngest daughter. She nagged us about aborting the pregnancy because it could have some deformity, considering my wife was 37. Now my could be deformed daughter has given us two wonderful granddaughters. Are you going to nag your patients into an abortion?

Am I the only one who detected sarcasm in her post?

Also, I think I may have found one of the roots of your intolerance towards pro-choice/abortion.

“According to her own wishes,” Jhco.

Pressuring somebody – “nagging” – to decide either way is not pro-choice. That is anti-choice.

@Tenco, sarcasm well observed – I don’t see wanting to help people come to a decision they’re comfortable with, having informed them of all aspects of each option, as “pushing a bias.” Pressuring either way is directive counselling (something I view to be abusive).

Sorry Para, I didn’t see the sarcasm. Honesty in your counseling is fine.

Originally posted by tenco1:

Originally posted by jhco50:

So you plan to be like the doctor my wife and I saw when she was pregnant with our youngest daughter. She nagged us about aborting the pregnancy because it could have some deformity, considering my wife was 37. Now my could be deformed daughter has given us two wonderful granddaughters. Are you going to nag your patients into an abortion?

Am I the only one who detected sarcasm in her post?

Also, I think I may have found one of the roots of your intolerance towards pro-choice/abortion.

Yes, that was a sticky point with me. We actually think my wife had twins, but one of them may not have made it as she passed a large blood clot early in her pregnancy. I always wondered what it would have been like to have twins. Instead of just turning grey, I may have ended up bald…LOL.

Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

@simeng—Are you kidding me? Tone down the dialect a little, thanks.

Ha. Since I ignore the difference with talking in chatspeak or with extremely crappy English, I also ignore the difference with using a dictionary to translate all your words into a higher difficulty level. But using the latter seems more of a deliberately arrogant stance than anything.

I never use the dictionary to translate… I just have an extremely expanded vernacular.

I’m just a country boy….
never did git much book learnin’ after 6th grade,,,
so help me out here, folks.

Vernacular = ego?

LOL!

Originally posted by jhco50:

So you plan to be like the doctor my wife and I saw when she was pregnant with our youngest daughter. She nagged us about aborting the pregnancy because it could have some deformity, considering my wife was 37.

Hmmmm…. I would have luved to have been a “fly-on-the-wall” for all of that. Esp. since all we are able to hear is jhco’s side of the story. AND, we all know all too well just how capable HE is of being unbiased when it comes to presenting data to support his views on the issue.

It is a well-known fact that the older a woman is….the more likely there could be particular “complications” w/ pregnancies. Perhaps the Dr. was merely INFORMING Mrs. jhco of this…..rather than “nagging”,,,urging,,,etc. It is the Dr.’s DUTY to the patient to provide appropriate medical care….giving facts and assessing probabilities for various outcomes.
Were the Dr. to have done anything “more” would have been highly UNprofessional and probably UNethical.

It is good that things “worked out” well for YOU, jhco.
BUT, do YOU seriously believe that such fairy-tale endings happen for EVERYONE?
Why is it that YOU are so dead set against OTHER PPL MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS regarding situations like this? YOU didn’t like it when a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL (maybe?) resorted to some “arm-twisting”. Can’t ya manage to open YOUR mind a fraction of an inch to allow in enough light to see that is exactly what YOU want to do…..and to an even GREATER EXTENT. Are YOU highly BIASED because it “worked for YOU”?

Sure.. I’ll decrease the sophistication of my nomenclature as employed. Starting from… now! Hi, guys. Sup?

Humans are overpopulated. That means we need to breed less often, not more often. If two idiots have an accident, that accident will only contribute to destroying the world in most cases. Although there would be extremely rare cases in which the future child would contribute, the advantages are outweighed by the negatives.

^ A fair allusion (abortion is “good”). However, this is really a matter of human life per se; not what comes out of it. We’re discussing about whether the killing of humans is tolerable here as its own end. Not about the implications of allowing someone to live or die etc. Nice point though, but save it for another time and place.

@simeng:

It would be appreciated, since most of the word choices are awkward. Both vernacular and nomenclature are so out of place it’s almost painful.

Para, you are correct that my generation needs to educate yours. After all, you are our grandchildren and we do have an obligation. But keep in mind your generation needs to listen and then make your decisions.

I find this a funny response to ParaNoir, considering she was saying essentially the opposite.

Originally posted by simeng:

I never use the dictionary to translate… I just have an extremely expanded vernacular.

Whatever.

I’m glad I could help with your decisions. Let’s hope you become an honest counseler and not just push your own biases.

That wasn’t meant as a compliment, jhco.

I know Twilight.

Originally posted by jhco50:

I know Twilight.

It gets hard to tell.