> *Originally posted by **[iMachine](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=2#posts-4407216):*** > > *Originally posted by **[scoopolard](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=2#posts-4407211):*** > > > *Originally posted by **[TheLoneLucas](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=2#posts-4407187):*** > > > > > > Why never? > > > > …because you’re killing an innocent being with infinite potential. > > And why is this immoral? > > Also, just because it has infinite potential does not mean that it is an infinite potential for ‘good’. Hitler was also a fetus once.So you’re saying we should abort children on the basis that they might be Hitler? Also, on the point of whether or not rape victims should get abortions: I personally think they shouldn’t. Yes, rape is a horrible, horrible tragedy that I would NEVER wish on somebody, but that child is not the rapist. Also, the amount of people who get pregnant from rape are very, **very** few. The stress they go through during the act tends to inhibit any pregnancies.

What’s wrong with it? You seek a more established definition, yet copy pasta the first definition you find…

> *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=9#posts-4408363):*** > > *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=9#posts-4408352):*** > > > *Originally posted by **[axlkoegoskyeg](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=9#posts-4408302):*** > > > > *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=9#posts-4408285):*** > > > > > > > > It is the option of the mother. What if they DO believe that the child isn’t technically classified as alive? That’s her choice! I don’t like it when people but into other people’s lives and force their beliefs upon them. It isn’t morally right to deny a woman the right to abort her child. > > > > > > So, if I believe YOU isnt technically classified as alive, I have the right to kill you? > > > > No. A fetus isn’t technically alive but for whatever reason people believe that an unborn fetus is entitled the same rights as a normal human. > > So, you’re saying that a fetus is entitled more rights than a child? Give minors more rights THEN we can start working on the rights of those who can’t even practice the right to live (since, well, they aren’t really alive) > > It isn’t technically alive? Its more technically alive than anything else in the world. I thought we were all clear on that. > > No, we did not said fetuses get more rights. We want to give them the right to be alive. Do minors not get that right? I thought they did. Maybe I worded that wrong… Fetuses have more rights than they can practice (life, freedom) Fetuses aren’t exactly people yet, so to give them these rights would make it hypocritical to deny, say, cows these rights. Now, before I continue, know that religion isn’t in any way a proper argument. Would you give a Homo Erectus rights? If so, isn’t true that we may have murdered our way to the top by killing these, and other species of the genus Homo, the only cousins of man? Do children truly have freedom? I don’t think so, since a child has to do everything their parent says or else they’ll be punished. Shouldn’t teens 12-16 have the right to consent to sex? I mean, by that time they are probably emotionally mature enough. If you think otherwise then you should listen to half the stuff 12-year olds talk about. They know that they shouldn’t let an adult take advantage of them. A 16-year old is barely any more emotionally mature than a 12-year old. How do I know this? I was 12 a few months ago. Since then I’ve learned alot about psychology and learned that I knew as much when I was 10 as the average adult knows concerning sex. Yet, children are denied these simple rights because adults are purposefully ignorant of modern culture and what it teaches kids. In the same way, they ignore the fact that a fetus can be thought of as not alive by anyone and that it’s their choice that determines the outcome. Well, it should be, at least. That is my statement. Now, make a counter-argument so that I can be entertained for the evening \_

> So you’re saying we should abort children on the basis that they might be Hitler? Silly, right? Just as silly as saying that we can’t abort them because they have infinite potential. > *Originally posted by **[DarkBaron](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408450):*** > > What’s wrong with it? You seek a more established definition, yet copy pasta the first definition you find… And?

Zwinkey, say there was someone who was braindead. But the doctors knew he would recover in roughly nine months. Is it murder to kill him?

> *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408505):*** > > Zwinkey, say there was someone who was braindead. But the doctors knew he would recover in roughly nine months. > > Is it murder to kill him? I the doctors KNEW he’d recover, then it’d be wrong to kill him. If they didn’t and he was in the hospital for several months, maybe even years, it’d perfectly moral to put him out of his misery and just pull the plug. Hey, you might be saving someone else who actually WILL recover if the hospital was completly packed.

> *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408522):*** > > *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408505):*** > > > > Zwinkey, say there was someone who was braindead. But the doctors knew he would recover in roughly nine months. > > > > Is it murder to kill him? > > I the doctors KNEW he’d recover, then it’d be wrong to kill him. If they didn’t and he was in the hospital for several months, maybe even years, it’d perfectly moral to put him out of his misery and just pull the plug. Hey, you might be saving someone else who actually WILL recover if the hospital was completly packed. A fetus will almost definitely “recover” into a fully functioning human being.

> *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408559):*** > > *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408522):*** > > > *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408505):*** > > > > > > Zwinkey, say there was someone who was braindead. But the doctors knew he would recover in roughly nine months. > > > > > > Is it murder to kill him? > > > > I the doctors KNEW he’d recover, then it’d be wrong to kill him. If they didn’t and he was in the hospital for several months, maybe even years, it’d perfectly moral to put him out of his misery and just pull the plug. Hey, you might be saving someone else who actually WILL recover if the hospital was completly packed. > > A fetus will almost definitely “recover” into a fully functioning human being. The mother certainly won’t. If they give the kid up for adoption, they feel as though they just threw them out. Abortion, on the other hand, can be thought of as returning the status quo. If the child was never born, it’s like it never existed. Hence no psychological harm. Is it a sin? Maybe. Would God (if he existed) forgive her? Yes, because that’s what he does. He forgives us! Well, seeing as I’ve struck down your argument and any chance of a proper religous argument, I’d like to see how you make a come-back to this one.

> Hmm…The adoption system doesn’t immediately take any child that needs to be put up for adoption, and link it up with a pair of loving parents until it grows up, always? And does this relate at all to abortion? If so, how? > If the child was never born, it’s like it never existed. Hence no psychological harm. This assumption made me want to vomit.

> I’d like to see how you make a come-back to this one. Since you have a different take on god than him, he’ll whine with that. Irrelevant but whatevs. At any rate, until it develops into a fully functional human being that can survive on it’s own, who are we to say that it is anything more than a cluster of cells? And what makes humans so “special” that we’re the only creatures not on the verge of extinction it’s immoral to kill?

Giving your child to a loving family is abandonment. But killing them is perfectly fine! > And what makes humans so “special” that we’re the only creatures not on the verge of extinction it’s immoral to kill? Well assuming you’re an atheist, I’d say because 1) We utilize technology. Show me one other species that’s even invented the wheel. We’re obviously special, either through pure, random luck, or by intelligent design. 2) We ARE humans. Seriously, that argument is just shucking retarded.

> *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408620):*** > > *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408559):*** > > > *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408522):*** > > > > *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408505):*** > > > > > > > > Zwinkey, say there was someone who was braindead. But the doctors knew he would recover in roughly nine months. > > > > > > > > Is it murder to kill him? > > > > > > I the doctors KNEW he’d recover, then it’d be wrong to kill him. If they didn’t and he was in the hospital for several months, maybe even years, it’d perfectly moral to put him out of his misery and just pull the plug. Hey, you might be saving someone else who actually WILL recover if the hospital was completly packed. > > > > A fetus will almost definitely “recover” into a fully functioning human being. > > The mother certainly won’t. If they give the kid up for adoption, they feel as though they just threw them out. Abortion, on the other hand, can be thought of as returning the status quo. If the child was never born, it’s like it never existed. Hence no psychological harm. Is it a sin? Maybe. Would God (if he existed) forgive her? Yes, because that’s what he does. He forgives us! > Well, seeing as I’ve struck down your argument and any chance of a proper religous argument, I’d like to see how you make a come-back to this one. The mother won’t become a fully functioning human being? And have you aborted a child? No, you haven’t. Personally I would feel worse if I killed a child than give him a life. And how does abortion being a status quo (it isn’t) have to do with this? “Oh well, I just followed the norm so I don’t feel bad about it.” Thats just silly. It DID exist though, do you think a woman will really forget about an abortion? Jesus forgives us. Read the old testament, he didn’t forgive much. And, you have not struck down my argument, and I never used God as my excuse anyways. I feel like that last sentence was something a city kid says after his turn in a rap battle. This isn’t a rap battle. And you spelled religious wrong.

> *Originally posted by **[Spaghedeity](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408648):*** > > Hmm…The adoption system doesn’t immediately take any child that needs to be put up for adoption, and link it up with a pair of loving parents until it grows up, always? > > And does this relate at all to abortion? If so, how? Presumption 1. Adoption system is flawed. Presumption 2: Adoption is the only alternative if someone does not want their baby and they do not abort. Conclusion 1. The only alternative to abortion is flawed. Conclusion 2: “They can just put their baby up for adoption” is not the magical solution to all the babies that will exist in the event of abortion bans. I do believe I’ve posted this before.

> 1) We utilize technology. Show me one other species that’s even invented the wheel. We’re obviously special, either through pure, random luck, or by intelligent design. I believe it was pure, random luck, honestly, and luck isn’t something that makes us special, it just makes us… lucky. > 2) We ARE humans. Seriously, that argument is just shucking retarded. So what if we are humans? Should that inspire some strong emotional sense of brother/sisterhood with my fellow humans? If it should, then why do we wage wars? Why do we have criminals? Why does sadism exist?

> *Originally posted by **[Winnabago](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408712):*** > > *Originally posted by **[Spaghedeity](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408648):*** > > > Hmm…The adoption system doesn’t immediately take any child that needs to be put up for adoption, and link it up with a pair of loving parents until it grows up, always? > > > > And does this relate at all to abortion? If so, how? > > > > > If the child was never born, it’s like it never existed. Hence no psychological harm. > > > > This assumption made me want to vomit. > > Presumption 1. Adoption system is flawed. > Presumption 2: Adoption is the only alternative if someone does not want their baby and they do not abort. > Conclusion 1. The only alternative to abortion is flawed. > Conclusion 2: “They can just put their baby up for adoption” is not the magical solution to all the babies that will exist in the event of abortion bans. > > I do believe I’ve posted this before. You still haven’t explained why this means abortion should be legal. It’s also ignoring the third, even _more_ shocking option, actually raising the child. I know, that might scare some people. But it’s a possibility.

> *Originally posted by **[LukeMann](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408671):*** > > Giving your child to a loving family is abandonment. > > But killing them is perfectly fine! > > > And what makes humans so “special” that we’re the only creatures not on the verge of extinction it’s immoral to kill? > > Well assuming you’re an atheist, I’d say because 1) We utilize technology. Show me one other species that’s even invented the wheel. We’re obviously special, either through pure, random luck, or by intelligent design. > > 2) We ARE humans. Seriously, that argument is just shucking retarded. Did you know that there are several types of chimps and I believe some types of apes that can use tools? Albiet they’re just sticks used to attract and pick up ants but technology all the same.

> *Originally posted by **[zwinkey98](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408769):*** > > Did you know that there are several types of chimps and I believe some types of apes that can use tools? Albiet they’re just sticks used to attract and pick up ants but technology all the same. Slow down there zwinkey. Did you forget about me?

> You still haven’t explained why this means abortion should be legal. It’s also ignoring the third, even _more_ shocking option, actually raising the child. I know, that might scare some people. But it’s a possibility. I think this is the point where experience ought to intrude. A lot of the anti-abortion arguments are made by people who aren’t going to become pregnant (because they’re guys), so what the fuck do they care about how difficult raising the fetus to term is? Now, that could be shrugged away, but the presumptious assertion that people ought to ‘man up’ and raise the kid themselves, when they haven’t the slightest experience of being in that situation? I’m sorry, just shut the fuck up already. EDIT: @GCK You know that ‘fucked up moral compass’ bit comes from scoopolard, right? The guy who’s vehemently pro-life (without much of a goddamn reason i might add). So you’re only mocking your own position, eh?

And if vika said it, would that change this?

> *Originally posted by **[Jantonaitis](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408784):*** > > You still haven’t explained why this means abortion should be legal. It’s also ignoring the third, even _more_ shocking option, actually raising the child. I know, that might scare some people. But it’s a possibility. > > I think this is the point where experience ought to intrude. A lot of the anti-abortion arguments are made by people who aren’t going to become pregnant (because they’re guys), so what the fuck do they care about how difficult raising the fetus to term is? Now, that could be shrugged away, but the presumptious assertion that people ought to ‘man up’ and raise the kid themselves, when they haven’t the slightest experience of being in that situation? I’m sorry, just shut the fuck up already. > > EDIT: @GCK > > You know that ‘fucked up moral compass’ bit comes from scoopolard, right? The guy who’s vehemently pro-life (without much of a goddamn reason i might add). So you’re only mocking your own position, eh? Dude…..? It was sarcasm. Someone said that to him about incest I WAS BEING SARCASTIC!

> *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408796):*** > > And if vika said it, would that change this? would it change what? seriously what the fuck are you talking about? Sarcasm doesn’t translate well online. Being how we’re typing and all. Still doesn’t make much sense anyway though.

That’s a different idea altogether: you were just asking what that had to do with abortion, so I told you. Actually raising a child has the following problems: a) Some people are too poor to be good parents b) Some people are too young to be good parents c) Some people want to go out and get a job, which is hard when you have a baby that you have to pay for d) Some people want their baby to have a father who is home e) Some people feel they aren’t emotionally ready f) Some people simply suck at parenting g) Some people do not like their babies. Not all of these are justified, but it frankly doesn’t matter. If they had to take care of a baby they did not want, that simply would not end well for the baby. You can’t force someone to like having a baby. Looking at this more practically, if mothers had to have all the babies they did not want, you must imagine what unwanted babies grow up to be. Productive members of society? Probably not, especially considering the mother may be very poor, or drug-addicted, or unstable, or insecure, or whatever, as these are the people more likely to end up preggo with babies they do not want.

> *Originally posted by **[Jantonaitis](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408802):*** > > *Originally posted by **[GameCrazyKid](/forums/9/topics/203834?page=10#posts-4408796):*** > > > > And if vika said it, would that change this? > > would it change what? seriously what the fuck are you talking about? The whole “You aren’t going to have kids anyways” bit.

Does selling your baby on the black market equal “adoption” because that’s an option too.