Suicide page 3

191 posts

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Originally posted by iMachine:

At least I present arguments that back up [citation needed] my claims. And working on it.

 
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You don’t think my arguments support my statements? Show me where, and I will try to correct myself.

 
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Originally posted by iMachine:

If you attempt suicide they treat it as you being insane

Which is ironic. A sane person spends about a century trying to achieve his goals (or he most likely ends up in a 9-to-5 job instead) before he inevitably dies, along with all the experiences he made throughout his life. And yet it is the suicidal who are regarded as being the insane. What a joke. [Supporting evidence required]

I’m going to assume you don’t know what sane means. Don’t worry bro, I got you covered. Why is it sane to live and insane to take your life? Imagine if everyone took their own lives. Humanity would end. Suicide is a disadvantageous thing, and evolutionarily rejected. When you commit suicide, you essentially violate your hardwiring. In other words, you’re mentally unstable.

Originally posted by iMachine:
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

How is working insane, again? Are you stupid?

You missed the point of my post. My point is that it doesn’t matter when we die, or what we accomplish in life [Unsupported argument; accomplishments live forever. The person who invented the computer is dead, ungrateful prick], because most likely, there is no afterlife in which we can look back and be proud/ashamed/whatever of the life we lived. I am not saying that working is insane if you want to live comfortably, I am saying that existence is meaningless and absurd. [Citation needed]

Btw, that’s rather selfish of you never to consider your loved ones.

 
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I’m going to assume you don’t know what sane means. Don’t worry bro, I got you covered.

I don’t see where the definition contradicts my claim.

Why is it sane to live and insane to take your life? Imagine if everyone took their own lives. Humanity would end.

If humanity would end, who would be around to mourn over it? I don’t see the problem. For some reason, you are assuming that the continued existence of the human race has some kind of inherent value.

Suicide is a disadvantageous thing, and evolutionarily rejected. When you commit suicide, you essentially violate your hardwiring. In other words, you’re not mentally stable.

That is not what it means according to the definition you just posted. That dictionary connects sanity with rationality. I find suicide to be rational, while carrying out a most likely meaningless existence to be irrational. Doesn’t that make me the sane person, and you the babbling lunatic?

And frankly, I’m questioning your mental stability, as well.

Fine. I think you are mistaking sanity for conformity, though.

In the first post you quoted, I felt it was ironic that people viewed suicidal persons as being insane because I find life to be ridiculous. I thought I made it clear why I find it to be ridiculous in the first post, but then you missed the point completely, and I had to explain it further in the second post.

In the second post, I make it clear why I find existence to be meaningless and absurd. To explain further, from a lack of evidence of the contrary, I assume that there is no deity in the universe. This means that there most likely is no objective meaning to life, either. We must at least assume so until the opposite has been justified. I also assume that consciousness is tied to the brain (supported by many scientific studies. I know you are the science type of person, after all), meaning that when we are rotting six feet under, we no longer exist, and there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife, what we accomplish in life and whenever we die does not matter any more. No matter what you do, you die, and you cease to exist, obviously losing all memories of the life you lived. This is pretty much where life loses its meaning to me.

Btw, that’s rather selfish of you never to consider your loved ones.

Yes, many would say so.

 
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I’m generally OK with the idea of suicide. If a person does not wish to live, and makes a considered decision to do something about it, that’s fine.

Of course, I would rather such individuals spoke to loved ones first, took at least a week considering their options, and performed the act in such a manner that it caused minimal distress or harm to other people.

Because diving in front of a train at a station or jumping 30 storeys onto a crowded street is going to severely screw up a lot of lives.

 
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I don’t see where the definition contradicts my claim.

That’s the cognitive dissonance talking.

If humanity would end, who would be around to mourn over it? I don’t see the problem. For some reason, you are assuming that the continued existence of the human race has some kind of inherent value.

You can’t look at this as “who would be around to mourn it.” Guess what that does? Gives inherent value to humans. Nice going. Evolution doesn’t care if you’re dead – it selects favorable traits for surviving. We are alive because our ancestors survived long enough to copulate. Suicide, in this context, is not a favorable trait. Therefore, you’re going against your wiring to live, and you are thus mentally unstable. This is not adding inherent value to humans – this is demonstrating to you that suicide is an unfavorable trait for the survival of humans.

That is not what it means according to the definition you just posted. That dictionary connects sanity with rationality. I find suicide to be rational, while carrying out a most likely meaningless existence to be irrational. [Citation needed] Doesn’t that make me the sane person, and you the babbling lunatic?

To me dead is living and living is dead. Doesn’t that make me the dead one, and George Washington the live one? Ineffable logic, buddy.

This has nothing to do with a deity. As far as science is concerned, you’re flat out lying. Consciousness has not even been supported to exist, let alone be tied to anything. Again, you assume just because you’re dead that your actions are meaningless. Tell that to Pascal, Bernoulli, Bernoulli, Bernoulli, Euler, Bernoulli, and the thousands upon thousands of engineers who designed our entire infrastructure, ranging from roads to bridges to satellites. Meaningless? Ungrateful prick.

 
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Nice, a discussion of semantics. Haven’t seen those in a while.

Suicide is an unfavourable trait for the survival of humans. As is having no legs or arms. As is easily catching diseases. As is being mentally unstable. Mental unstability may even be highly correlated with being suicidal. Who knows? Or cares.

If somebody wants to properly commit suicide, the only way they can be stopped is by walking in on them. It would be silly to make it illegal, but at the same time silly to make it a right.

 
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Originally posted by Darkruler2005:

Nice, a discussion of semantics. Haven’t seen those in a while.

Suicide is an unfavourable trait for the survival of humans. As is having no legs or arms. As is easily catching diseases. As is being mentally unstable. Mental unstability may even be highly correlated with being suicidal. Who knows? Or cares.

If somebody wants to properly commit suicide, the only way they can be stopped is by walking in on them. It would be silly to make it illegal, but at the same time silly to make it a right.

It is illegal, and I’ve always found a problem with it. My mother told me when I was young (I’ve always been a philosopher) and we discussed about it, I thought it is a given right what to do with your life, that includes ending it.

Originally posted by NeilSenna:

I’m generally OK with the idea of suicide. If a person does not wish to live, and makes a considered decision to do something about it, that’s fine.

Of course, I would rather such individuals spoke to loved ones first, took at least a week considering their options, and performed the act in such a manner that it caused minimal distress or harm to other people.

Because diving in front of a train at a station or jumping 30 storeys onto a crowded street is going to severely screw up a lot of lives.

Yes, the problem is that if they walk in on you, they most likely try to stop you and then you are treated as being mentally unstable, getting therapy and most likely not trusted to be by yourself. What inspired this thread is I was watching “Inside County Jail” (I believe this was the name) and most suicides happen in prison. (Jail and prison is not the same, but they both have many suicides). It showed a man crying and attempted to commit suicide, they strapped him and he was begging for them to kill him. He was charged for rape and claimed he didn’t do it, but regardless of if he did or didn’t, if he truly feels in pain, it seems like they were basically torturing him.

 
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Suicide is already very possible, unless you are unable to do it yourself, in which case this thread is what you are looking for.

If you don’t do it idiotically, you can suicide without fail, and nobody will walk in on you. If you can pleasure yourself without your parent walking in, you can commit suicide just as easily, though not nearly as fun.

You could swallow a strong poison, and then go sit on the toilet for a while and lock the door. You could jump off a high building. You could cut yourself in the right places after taking some strong painkillers. The possibilities are endless, whether or not the law allows it.

Whether it is ethical or not, really depends on your religion and the way you view the world. Some religions don’t allow suicide, then again some religions don’t allow consuming pork, and that isn’t illegal. Although leaving people behind is “wrong”, in case there is no afterlife ethics no longer exist after death as you cease to exist, so it really doesn’t matter.

 
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Just a heads up, please don’t use personal attacks in your arguments. Find a better way to word things than drag the other party into the issue and demean them, subtly or otherwise. This is particularly true towards Darkbaron. Veiling personal attacks in your posts is not warranted or necessarily. You are not obliged to respond to anyone.

Thank you.

 
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Originally posted by Indy111:

It is not allowed It is illegal in the USA and I presume most Western Countries. If you attempt suicide they treat it as you being insane, you go on suicide watch and they do there best to stop you from killing yourself. So yes, suicide is not allowed.

Originally posted by Indy111:

It is illegal, and I’ve always found a problem with it. My mother told me when I was young (I’ve always been a philosopher) and we discussed about it, I thought it is a given right what to do with your life, that includes ending it.

Can you please provide a stronger source than your mother for that suicide is illegal in the US? According to Wikipedia, which is the strongest source I can find, there are no states that still have laws against suicide. The UK stopped suicide being illegal in 1961. In Sweden, where I live, we’ve been allowed to commit suicide since 1856.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by Indy111:

It is not allowed It is illegal in the USA and I presume most Western Countries. If you attempt suicide they treat it as you being insane, you go on suicide watch and they do there best to stop you from killing yourself. So yes, suicide is not allowed.

Originally posted by Indy111:

It is illegal, and I’ve always found a problem with it. My mother told me when I was young (I’ve always been a philosopher) and we discussed about it, I thought it is a given right what to do with your life, that includes ending it.

Can you please provide a stronger source than your mother for that suicide is illegal in the US? According to Wikipedia, which is the strongest source I can find, there are no states that still have laws against suicide. The UK stopped suicide being illegal in 1961. In Sweden, where I live, we’ve been allowed to commit suicide since 1856.

What I found , and you are right that I shouldn’t rely on my mother for the truth even though she’s lovely :D

 
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Know what I like? People who read things out of context and interpret generic “yous” as personal attacks. I edited my generic you back into my post, and if you (either mod or reporter or both) still think it’s a personal attack, I recommend brushing up on your reading comprehension, particularly phrasal antecedents.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:
Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by Indy111:

It is not allowed It is illegal in the USA and I presume most Western Countries. If you attempt suicide they treat it as you being insane, you go on suicide watch and they do there best to stop you from killing yourself. So yes, suicide is not allowed.

Originally posted by Indy111:

It is illegal, and I’ve always found a problem with it. My mother told me when I was young (I’ve always been a philosopher) and we discussed about it, I thought it is a given right what to do with your life, that includes ending it.

Can you please provide a stronger source than your mother for that suicide is illegal in the US? According to Wikipedia, which is the strongest source I can find, there are no states that still have laws against suicide. The UK stopped suicide being illegal in 1961. In Sweden, where I live, we’ve been allowed to commit suicide since 1856.

you’re both right.. suicide doesn’t seem to be illegal, but they can still lock you up for it in a hospital. so are hospitals breaking the law?

Well I believe if the authorities or whomever handles this finds you unstable, they are allowed to keep you under watch at a hospital.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:

define unstable

Well that would be up to the pysocologists or whoever give them the test. (Also, I don’t know why it quoted like this, but too lazy to fix it)

 
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Indy, add a < then the word blockquote then > so that it ends the quote.

 
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Originally posted by Indy111:

What I found , and you are right that I shouldn’t rely on my mother for the truth even though she’s lovely :D

I can’t comment on the loveliness of your mother. As far as I know, I never met her.

Originally posted by Indy111:
Originally posted by paranova9:

you’re both right.. suicide doesn’t seem to be illegal, but they can still lock you up for it in a hospital. so are hospitals breaking the law?

Well I believe if the authorities or whomever handles this finds you unstable, they are allowed to keep you under watch at a hospital.

I wouldn’t know what the law says in other countries, but in Sweden, it is legal to detain a person in a psychiatric hospital if said person has a severe mental disorder which needs treatment and cannot be treated otherwise. Having a mental disorder is not a crime however, meaning that psychiatric hospitals have a legal right to detain people even if they have not commited a crime. It doesn’t mention suicide specifically in the law itself, but I can imagine that trying to commit suicide would be a large contributor to a physician giving you a diagnosis of severe mental disorder.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by Indy111:

What I found , and you are right that I shouldn’t rely on my mother for the truth even though she’s lovely :D

I can’t comment on the loveliness of your mother. As far as I know, I never met her.

Originally posted by Indy111:
Originally posted by paranova9:

you’re both right.. suicide doesn’t seem to be illegal, but they can still lock you up for it in a hospital. so are hospitals breaking the law?

Well I believe if the authorities or whomever handles this finds you unstable, they are allowed to keep you under watch at a hospital.

I wouldn’t know what the law says in other countries, but in Sweden, it is legal to detain a person in a psychiatric hospital if said person has a severe mental disorder which needs treatment and cannot be treated otherwise. Having a mental disorder is not a crime however, meaning that psychiatric hospitals have a legal right to detain people even if they have not commited a crime. It doesn’t mention suicide specifically in the law itself, but I can imagine that trying to commit suicide would be a large contributor to a physician giving you a diagnosis of severe mental disorder.

Being mental isn’t a crime anywhere (I think). But, if the authorities feel like you are a danger to other people or yourself, they will take you in. I don’t have a problem with the danger to others, but I do have a problem with the danger to yourself.

 
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You teenagers never get it, do you? Go be emo elsewhere.

 
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Originally posted by DarkBaron:

You teenagers never get it, do you? Go be emo elsewhere.

Please, if you are going to post then post a good contribution. Insults are so last year.

 
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Ask me how I know you’re a teenager.

 
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Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Ask me how I know you’re a teenager.

So I take it you are anti-suicide? I just want to know if I am getting your vibe correctly.

 
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That’s the cognitive dissonance talking.

That’s just the lack of a real counter-argument talking.

You can’t look at this as “who would be around to mourn it.” Guess what that does? Gives inherent value to humans.

No, I was just assuming that your problem with people killing themselves were the people who are left behind (judging from that comment you left in that earlier post).

Nice going. Evolution doesn’t care if you’re dead – it selects favorable traits for surviving. We are alive because our ancestors survived long enough to copulate. Suicide, in this context, is not a favorable trait. Therefore, you’re going against your wiring to live, and you are thus mentally unstable.

Mentally unstable? I don’t know about that. Perhaps. Whatever. Insane? Not according to the dictionary you cited, at least.

This is not adding inherent value to humans – this is demonstrating to you that suicide is an unfavorable trait for the survival of humans.

Okay, so what? What argument are you making?

To me dead is living and living is dead. Doesn’t that make me the dead one, and George Washington the live one? Ineffable logic, buddy.

No, that is wrong because it is a false analogy. “Dead” and “alive” are words with very specific definitions that don’t change based on individual interpretation. The only thing that changes is how you define the terms. However, “sane” and “insane” are defined as correlating to the rationality of your actions and thoughts. However, what is rational is purely subjective because they depend on your individual goals or desires. For example, if you want a car, spending all your money on bicycles instead is incredibly irrational. However, if you want a lot of bikes, it is the most rational thing you could do. You should probably stop making smug remarks about logic if you have trouble utilizing it yourself.

This has nothing to do with a deity. As far as science is concerned, you’re flat out lying. Consciousness has not even been supported to exist,

What.

let alone be tied to anything.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16775-consciousness-signature-discovered-spanning-the-brain.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090316201459.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090615171517.htm
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/080219_conscious

Actually, consciousness is shown to be tied to brain activity. It does not prove that it is dependent on a brain or similar structures, but they do make a strong case. Anyhow, if we have no physical self, where would our consciousness come from? What sounds most likely to you?

Again, you assume just because you’re dead that your actions are meaningless. Tell that to Pascal, Bernoulli, Bernoulli, Bernoulli, Euler, Bernoulli, and the thousands upon thousands of engineers who designed our entire infrastructure, ranging from roads to bridges to satellites.

Never did I say that your actions won’t have consequences, even after death. What I am saying is that when you die, it won’t matter to you. I don’t know what motivates you to commit actions, but to me, and about every other creature on this planet, it is the pursuit of positive stimuli, and the aversion of negative stimuli. When I help an old lady across the road, it is because doing so gives me positive stimuli in some way. Why else would I do it? When I don’t rape and kill strangers, it is because it makes me feel bad. If I die as a bum or the guy who cured AIDS, it won’t matter, because there will not be a brain who responds to negative or positive stimuli. In other words, I won’t be able to enjoy that sweet feeling of having saved millions of people.
Sure, my actions will have consequences, and will affect other people after my death, but it won’t matter to me. I won’t exist.

Meaningless? Ungrateful prick.

At least I’m not an arrogant moralist.

I find suicide to be rational, while carrying out a most likely meaningless existence to be irrational. [Citation needed]

I’ve already explained this, I believe. Several times.

 
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@iMachine
How does it feel to argue with a strawman? I couldn’t give less of a shit about people who kill themselves. I do, however, care when they argue life is meaningless like an existentialist baboon. What you’re arguing with positive and negative stimuli begins to get us into Nietzsche’s work, which I really don’t feel like trying to explain.

You explained how suicide is rational and living is irrational? No you haven’t, which is why I keep pounding you for sources.

 
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I think we have to put religion asside for this discussion, but it can be another reason to either commit suicide, or not. (I would think most would not but some satanist cult or something could say what goes on after death or what not)