Suicide page 4

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Btw, feelings of suicide are indicative of depression, which is a mental disorder.

 
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Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Btw, feelings of suicide are indicative of depression, which is a mental disorder.

Pfft, so is being defiant to your parents. I guess anything that is not “normal” is a disorder, so basically all humans have some type of disorder. It is dumb really.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Btw, feelings of suicide are indicative of depression, which is a mental disorder.

depression is not a disorder or illness

you like Nietzsche right? heres another
Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche

and another
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Interesting, is that why my psychology textbook has it listed under “Psychological Disorders”? Or maybe how the National Institute of Mental Health calls it both a disorder and an illness?

Here’s a Nietzsche quote for you: "The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.”

 
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Originally posted by Indy111:
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Btw, feelings of suicide are indicative of depression, which is a mental disorder.

Pfft, so is being defiant to your parents.

You’re kidding, right?

 
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Maybe if people saw depression as a disorder, in dire need of psychological assistance, they could get the help they need and not quote Nietzsche like a suicidal nihilist.

 
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It is not the governments body it is yours so do what you want with it.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by Indy111:
Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Btw, feelings of suicide are indicative of depression, which is a mental disorder.

Pfft, so is being defiant to your parents.

You’re kidding, right?

I supposedly have defiance disorder because I don’t listen to authorities unless I feel so. (Don’t want to sound like a brat, I just don’t listen to someone if I feel it is not right)

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by Indy111:

It is not allowed It is illegal in the USA and I presume most Western Countries. If you attempt suicide they treat it as you being insane, you go on suicide watch and they do there best to stop you from killing yourself. So yes, suicide is not allowed.

Originally posted by Indy111:

It is illegal, and I’ve always found a problem with it. My mother told me when I was young (I’ve always been a philosopher) and we discussed about it, I thought it is a given right what to do with your life, that includes ending it.

Can you please provide a stronger source than your mother for that suicide is illegal in the US? According to Wikipedia, which is the strongest source I can find, there are no states that still have laws against suicide. The UK stopped suicide being illegal in 1961. In Sweden, where I live, we’ve been allowed to commit suicide since 1856.

Even if it’s illegal, it would be pretty darn hard to prosecute, especially if the suicide is successful. Just saying.

I remember a long time ago hearing it was illegal but could be wrong and have nothing to back that up. Then again, a family friend of ours tried committing suicide several years back (he tried to shoot himself in the head twice, and failed) and nothing legal happened to him.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:

you’re both right.. suicide doesn’t seem to be illegal, but they can still lock you up for it in a hospital. so are hospitals breaking the law?

No, hospitals are just trying to help you. Considering your brain (and your mental “wellness”) is a part of your body, they consider you sick and take appropriate action.

Well I believe if the authorities or whomever handles this finds you unstable, they are allowed to keep you under watch at a hospital.

define unstable
what law gives them the right?

In California, at least, I think it’s Penal Code 5150. Like when Britney Spears had her breakdown—she was taken in for 72 hours for observation.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:
Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by paranova9:

you’re both right.. suicide doesn’t seem to be illegal, but they can still lock you up for it in a hospital. so are hospitals breaking the law?

No, hospitals are just trying to help you. Considering your brain (and your mental “wellness”) is a part of your body, they consider you sick and take appropriate action.

perhaps some are trying to help. usually they are just trying to make money.

They’re trying to do both, but mostly the former.

 
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depression is not a disorder or illness
your psychology textbook is wrong

Source on that? Because any psychologist, psychiatrist (or any educated person, really) will tell you that depression is a mental disorder. Suicidal thoughts are not, however they show bad mental health. There people who kill themselves without any suicidal thoughts beforehand (once again I must mention the terminally ill), but it’s rare.

Also, people commonly confuse depression with mood swings, sadness or bad mental health. These are different things. Just throwing that out there.

 
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@ Paranova
However, an educated opinion with research and facts to back it up means the right opinion. You have yet to show any superior knowledge and intelligence. I mean, how many depressed patients have you talked to? The terminally ill? The suicidal?

 
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http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/what-is-depression-if-not-a-mental-illness/all/1/

Depression is a Mental Disorder. However, there are exceptions, and it is hereditary.

 
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Originally posted by paranova9:

i’ve had 3 decades of analysis of myself

That doesn’t mean you get to choose what is and what isn’t a mental disorder.

 
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I do, however, care when they argue life is meaningless like an existentialist baboon. What you’re arguing with positive and negative stimuli begins to get us into Nietzsche’s work, which I really don’t feel like trying to explain.

Why would you explain Nietzsche?

You explained how suicide is rational and living is irrational? No you haven’t

But I did: “To explain further, from a lack of evidence of the contrary, I assume that there is no deity in the universe. This means that there most likely is no objective meaning to life, either. We must at least assume so until the opposite has been justified. I also assume that consciousness is tied to the brain (supported by many scientific studies. I know you are the science type of person, after all), meaning that when we are rotting six feet under, we no longer exist, and there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife, what we accomplish in life and whenever we die does not matter any more. No matter what you do, you die, and you cease to exist, obviously losing all memories of the life you lived. This is pretty much where life loses its meaning to me.”

EDIT: Also, as I have previously explained, what is rational and not is subjective. It depends on your goals and desires.

which is why I keep pounding you for sources.

Pounding me for sources on what? Sources that presents irrefutable proof that life has no objective meaning? Or that consciousness can’t exist outside the body? There are no such sources, and there will probably never be. The question is, does it matter? Ever tried proving to yourself that what you perceive to be reality, really is real? It is impossible. We just have to assume that what sounds most likely also is correct. See where I am coming from? We can prove that the brain has much to do with consciousness, and there are many reasons to assume that there exists no god or other higher powers. Wouldn’t it then be reasonable to assume that consciousness is very related, or even dependent, on the brain? And that there exists no deity? If you can present arguments that shows that god’s existence is likely (meaning the possibility of an objective meaning of life. By that I mean that meaning is an abstract concept and can’t be formed naturally like the rest of the universe did, thus it is dependant on a creator), or that consciousness exists outside of the brain, then I will reconsider my views on this.

Now, if my assumptions are correct, then life consists of 70-90 years (depending on where you live in the world, of course) of pursuing your goals before you cease to exist. As in, to you (if you could actually experience anything after death) it would be like you never existed in the first place. Doesn’t matter when you die or what life you lived, because once you are dead, it won’t matter to you simply because you won’t exist anymore. Now I don’t know whether this sounds meaningful to you or not, but it doesn’t seem meaningful to me.

Now, how about you present them counter-arguments and explain how existence is objectively meaningful.

 
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You really like strawmen, don’t you? No, that is not an adequate explanation for why suicide is rational. That’s the emo teen in you. Now, provide evidence why life is meaningless.

 
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No, that is not an adequate explanation for why suicide is rational.

Hmmm, alright. You are right about that. Rationality is subjective. What is rational for one to do depends on how it correlates with his intentions or goals. If you want to continue living, then suicide is irrational to you. To many, it isn’t. My earlier explanation was more of my opinion towards the rationality of continuing life based on my views and the assumptions I have made, rather than an attempt to prove how living is objectively irrational. My bad.

anyway, let me now try to discredit your arguments by connecting them to unpopular youth culture herp derp

Stay classy, DarkBaron.

Now, provide evidence why life is meaningless.

Do you read my posts? Hard evidence of the absence of a higher meaning is impossible. However, as far as I am concerned, there is a lot more pointing towards there not being a higher meaning than the other way around. I could be wrong about everything I have written here, but I assume that I’m not, based on what I already know, and the evidence that actually is available. Seems like I have to explain this for the third or fourth time, now simplified.

1. Meaning is an abstract concept and can’t arise naturally like everything else in our universe (which came into existence trough chemical processes). That means it depends on a creator of some sort.

2. There is little evidence of the existence of a deity.

3. Thus, there is little reason to assume that there is a higher meaning to life. Therefore, even if we can never fully exclude the possibility of there being one, we can safely assume that there isn’t. Which is what I am doing. Simple deductive logic.

 
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So you have nothing? Okay.

 
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Do you have hard evidence of the reality of evolution?

 
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Do you have hard evidence of your own existence?

 
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Originally posted by Spaghedeity:

Do you have hard evidence of your own existence?

I know I exist because I can think and feel, but I don’t know if anything else is real. I am actually Solipsist (The belief that I am the only being to exist and everything else is my imagination).

 
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Originally posted by Spaghedeity:

Do you have hard evidence of your own existence?

That was my point. You can’t be 100% sure about anything, so if that is a requirement for rational discussion, then rational discussion is impossible. You have to make assumptions, based on the evidence at hand, and what you believe to be most likely. That being said, I think that me existing is the only thing I can know for sure. I have to exist in some form in order to be conscious.

I am actually Solipsist (The belief that I am the only being to exist and everything else is my imagination).

Solipsism is more the belief that you can’t be sure about anything outside of your own mind, rather than a complete rejection of your perceived reality. I also consider myself a solipsist to some degree.

EDIT: No, wait. Scratch that. You were right. There are several definitions.

 
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That being said, I think that me existing is the only thing I can know for sure. I have to exist in some form in order to be conscious.

[citation needed]

 
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Know what I have to say to solipsists? Walk through your table. Why walk around it if you don’t think it exists? Because you’re full of yourself and don’t really think about what that shit means. As far as suicide goes, people like you are better off being allowed to off themselves, so you can’t try explaining your worthless, pitiful excuses of philosophies to others,

So what do we have in this thread? A couple of nihilistic, existential, solipsistic suicidal teenagers who think quoting Nietzsche makes them deep. Awesome.

 
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Originally posted by Spaghedeity:
That being said, I think that me existing is the only thing I can know for sure. I have to exist in some form in order to be conscious.

[citation needed]

You really need sources for that? It really is self-explanatory that you can’t do anything if you don’t exist. Unless you are just being funny.

Originally posted by DarkBaron:

Know what I have to say to solipsists? Walk through your table. Why walk around it if you don’t think it exists? Because you’re full of yourself and don’t really think about what that shit means.

Not that simple. How can I know that I really am walking into a table, and not that my senses provide my brain with faulty information? I certainly don’t consider it to be likely, but it is possible.

EDIT: For all you and I know, we could both be living in some Matrix-ish computer generation. There is simply no way to be sure.