If there is a god...

64 posts

Flag Post

Are they the kind of person that should be worshipped?
Think about it, if they truly are almighty beings then why do they watch all the suffering? If a god does that then are they the kind of person that you should worship, are they worthy of our praise?
Discuss.

 
Flag Post

It seems everyone on this forum are worried about suffering and spend a lot of time worrying about it. Life can be hard, but it can also be happy and fun. Instead of always worrying we should instead be thankful for what we have. Enjoy your life and make the most of it through hard work. Sure, there are trials and tribulations we must live through. I myself have had my share. But instead of a glass half empty, look at the glass half full. You or anyone else on this forum will be able to eliminate all of the suffering in the world. We hae absolutely no impact on any of this. We can either dwell on all of it or we can live our lives to the fullest.

I would like to think there is a God, and for all I or anyone else knows, there may be. It is not up to me to say yea or nay as I really don’t know for sure. People by nature do need something to believe in to ease their lives. Religion performs this service and does a pretty good job of it. We don’t know if we go to heaven when we die or just return to the earth. This is faith, the faith needed by people to think they continue on after death.

I don’t know you and I can’t really advise you, but follow your heart. Only you can answer the question you ask.

 
Flag Post

Death is inevitable when one is alive. This is the order of things here. Suffering is inevitable. All living things must die. Knowledge, hope, faith, action. To worship or not is a personal choice…

 
Flag Post

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

If I was God I’d play around with the awesome physics simulation in my game a bit.

Yay! Moon + ocean = massive wave!!! Cool!!!
Now, let’s test the range of rotation of that new knee joint I just made for Oogabimboogas (humans sounds lame. I wouldn’t have called my toys humans)…

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

If I was God I’d play around with the awesome physics simulation in my game a bit.

Yay! Moon + ocean = massive wave!!! Cool!!!
Now, let’s test the range of rotation of that new knee joint I just made for Oogabimboogas (humans sounds lame. I wouldn’t have called my toys humans)…

Someone’s been playing Doodle God. XD

 
This post has been removed by an administrator or moderator
 
Flag Post
Originally posted by firecrime:
Originally posted by EPR89:
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

If I was God I’d play around with the awesome physics simulation in my game a bit.

Yay! Moon + ocean = massive wave!!! Cool!!!
Now, let’s test the range of rotation of that new knee joint I just made for Oogabimboogas (humans sounds lame. I wouldn’t have called my toys humans)…

Someone’s been playing Doodle God. XD

That game sucks so badly…
I was thinking Sim City (Bowser! CHARGE!) combined with random gore-fest.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

Using that rational, a parent doesn’t love their children if they allow them to play hockey or football.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by issendorf:
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

Using that rational, a parent doesn’t love their children if they allow them to play hockey or football.

If you’re going to go with that, why even be alive at all?

 
Flag Post

See the Why R U… thread for more on “suffering” and “parenting”.

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by issendorf:
Originally posted by firecrime:

But if a god is truly a divine entity would they not have prevented needless suffering?

Using that rational, a parent doesn’t love their children if they allow them to play hockey or football.

But you don’t worship your parents. If you are going to worship someone they have to be worthy of the praise and worship, and a god would have the power to stop the suffering.

 
Flag Post

@fire
Why do the ones who don’t want to do something, which would be just a sign of thanks, ALWAYS look for EXCUSES, not to do it?
You stupidly assume, that if your hand gets smacked, your father must be evil, for not letting you plug your two fingers into a 220V.
No, why I would ever be thankful to him?
What did he ever do for me?
I don’t care, that my whole LIFE is what I got from my parents AND GOD.
Why would I appreciate it?
I’m a FREE MAN!
I can do or not, whatever I want!
And who are you, father, to demand respect and appreciation from me!
Actually, this is also the modern problem with ACTUAL parents – people care for them less and less, btw also due to removing the “honor your parents”, together with “don’t murder/steal”.
POLICE is totally NOT ENOUGH to INSTILL in oneself the RESPECT for other humans, or even one’s parents.
We CAN SEE it right now – and YOU probably don’t even need to leave your house, right? :DDD

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

@fire
Why do the ones who don’t want to do something, which would be just a sign of thanks, ALWAYS look for EXCUSES, not to do it?
You stupidly assume, that if your hand gets smacked, your father must be evil, for not letting you plug your two fingers into a 220V.
No, why I would ever be thankful to him?
What did he ever do for me?
I don’t care, that my whole LIFE is what I got from my parents AND GOD.
Why would I appreciate it?
I’m a FREE MAN!
I can do or not, whatever I want!
And who are you, father, to demand respect and appreciation from me!
Actually, this is also the modern problem with ACTUAL parents – people care for them less and less, btw also due to removing the “honor your parents”, together with “don’t murder/steal”.
POLICE is totally NOT ENOUGH to INSTILL in oneself the RESPECT for other humans, or even one’s parents.
We CAN SEE it right now – and YOU probably don’t even need to leave your house, right? :DDD

Im pretty sure firecrime said “needless suffering”. Hurting someone to stop them sticking their fingers in a plug is not really a reasonable comparison.
Btw, sorry about quoting the whole thing, i’m not too good with the whole system on Kongregate.

 
Flag Post

@harvey
Yeah, I HATE the formatting here, the longer, the more…

The key point is, how do you know, if it’s “needless”?
Atheists that claim GOD’s “evilness”, ASSUME that He doesn’t (or even can’t) do things, that would LOOK evil to us, yet would BE good for those who get it.
This means the TOTAL good, not the MOMENTARY.
You can eat 5 pizzas at once – it will give you immense joy if you love them.
But the total will be BAD, cause all the joy you got for like 30 minutes, will be diminished by the next 5 hours of stomach pain.
Now, imagine you NEVER had stomach pains and NEVER ate so much pizza (or ANYTHING).
HOW are you gonna SUPPOSE/PREDICT the results?
But if someone else comes and tells you: “Don’t overeat, or else…” – would it be SMART to just dismiss the guy on the assumption that “you know better”?
Cause, LATER you will totally acknowledge his right, but it will be TOO LATE.
This is but a VERY simplified example – but it stands true for ANY experience we can have.
We don’t know so many different things, but yet pose ourselves as the ALL-KNOWINGS

 
Flag Post

http://scaleofuniverse.com/

I’ve been playing around with this little flash for a bit, I think anyone here will find it interesting. But more importantly, I have a point to make relative to it.

If we are to assume that God has created all there is in the universe, then I think it is fair to say that he has an incredible scientific mind. He supposedly created all those little quarks and neutrinos, which are not only unthinkably small but also fairly complex in their functions. He has also created unthinkably large nebulae and galaxies, which although being light years in diameter are still tiny compared to the total universe. This giant universe, which seems infinitely large to ourselves, is assumed to be, in many places, occupied by extremely large groupings of matter such as galaxies, which contain millions of stars inside of them, many of which are orbited by planets like ours, which contain billions of people like us. We are very small compared to the things in space; a fairly tall human being is 2 meters tall, and our galaxy is about 10^21 meters in diameter (anyone for a thing for exponential thinking can appreciate the difference). Yet despite this, there are still tiny things that exist on our planet which would make us seem relatively galactic in size and mass. So then, where does this tie in?

Well, why would such a scientific god, who could create both incredibly massive and incredibly tiny things which even we currently can’t understand, be concerned with how we conduct our affairs? If god is to be credited with creating the universe then he is, without a doubt, the greatest scientist to ever exist. Assuming that he was not all knowing (as omniscience creates a lack of free will), wouldn’t he want to observe what we did on our own, given that he actually has an interest in us?

To conclude, I can’t say that it is impossible for there to be a god that created everything. My point is that such an incredible being would probably be indifferent to how we went about our lives. Why would the same god who created massive clouds and dark matter care what some tiny human said about him on some planet deep within his own creation? The bible often indicates that God becomes angry when certain people do certain things, but I can’t see why.

If you were to believe that the Earth is the center of the universe, and that we are the only life inside of it, of course it might seem that God would care what we do. However, I feel that once people can respect what an insignificant speck human civilization is relative to the universe, the idea that God has any real interest in us fades away.

 
Flag Post

@ohm
Omniscience is a prereq. :D
Also, you assume, it was NOT done for US.
Which it was.
The more awesome the universe we know gets, the higher the thanks we SHOULD give for getting one. :D

 
Flag Post
Also, you assume, it was NOT done for US.
Which it was.

This would be plausible if we could easily be determined to be the only sentient life in the universe. However, we have no way of knowing this yet, and it has been shown that the materials needed for creating life are abundant in the universe, so assuming that we are the sole inheritors of this universe is a far stretch, as we really do not know enough.

Even what we know of the universe represented in that flash is significantly less than what could be known, also.

Omniscience is a prereq. :D

For what? An all powerful god?

Firstly, even in my admiration for the known universe I can’t say that any creator of it would be “all powerful” by definition.

Secondly, why would god need to be omniscient? He could have limited omniscience; that is, he knows all of what happens in the universe, but if he were to be truly omniscient then he would already know ever thought he was going to think, and he would be assumed to have no free will over his actions. If he is just acting to some complex schedule within himself then that makes him less of an “all powerful being” and more of some complex machine.

The more awesome the universe we know gets, the higher the thanks we SHOULD give for getting one. :D

Getting one? What happens if we don’t get one? Life-forms such as us wouldn’t exist, and we could not be ungrateful if we don’t exist. Again, if a god did create the universe I am sure he should be admired for his stunning work in doing so as we become more aware of the universe, but to become slaves to his supposed will, which goes according to what we wrote in our own scripture? I wouldn’t think so.

 
Flag Post

@ohm
Error number 2: “slaves”.
Do you become a “slave” of your doctor?
Your parents?
Your government?
You DO fulfill (supposed to at least) whatever all of them tell you, so is it slavery?
Also, both DOCTOR and PARENT are key words to understanding why GOD gives us any commands AT ALL.
The doctor’s goal is to heal/prevent diseases, the parent’s is to educate.
That’s just the SAME goals GOD has.
The only difference, the results aren’t obvious, or some can’t even be seen in our life(time).
Does it NECESSARILY mean, there aren’t such? NO!
Like you just said – you can’t know.
You DO trust a doctor, even to operate your HEART or BRAIN, right?
Now, do you have any doubt, that he will do his best and use the most of his knowledge to do the task?
Of course, NOT.
So, why doubt the One, Who KNOWS ALL and CAN ALL?
HUMANS you do trust – why then not trust someone MUCH more ABLE? :DDD
As of pain, when a surgeon cuts into someone’s heart, it LOOKS like a butchery, but all he does – saves the LIFE.
Same with GOD, when we distort our life to the extent of barely reparable, He sometimes (as if) has no “choice” (due to our FREE actions), other than to “operate”, and THAT hurts.
Well, doctors usually also have preventive advices, how to NOT get into such situations.
Do we listen even to the HUMANS..?
How much more so with GOD

 
Flag Post

Are they the kind of person that should be worshipped?

This question has been asked too many times before. You can worship whoever you want, but that doesn’t mean it’s rational. If your god isn’t omnipotent and omniscient, then he might not have been able to prevent suffering, so you wouldn’t need to blame him for it. It all depends on what you believe.

Also, you assume, it was NOT done for US.
Which it was.

I don’t understand how you can shamelessly make enormous claims that aren’t proven.

 
Flag Post
Do you become a “slave” of your doctor?

No, but I go to the doctor when I need help, i.e. voluntarily. I don’t think you’d consider religious worship voluntary.

your parents?

In a way. I didn’t choose who they were, and they shaped my morals around theirs, and I often was subject to their rules. I am thankful for what my parents have done for me, but not all of us can say the same
Your government?

At times, I really wonder.
That’s just the SAME goals GOD has.

Why does an all-powerful being need goals anyway? Does that imply that it is sometimes uncertain whether god can accomplish a task or not?
You DO trust a doctor, even to operate your HEART or BRAIN, right? ow, do you have any doubt, that he will do his best and use the most of his knowledge to do the task?
Of course, NOT.
So, why doubt the One, Who KNOWS ALL and CAN ALL?

The difference of course is that I do not choose to worship the doctor. The doctor I can trust to be able to bring me to good health, and for that I am thankful. But I doubt any doctor would expect worship for what he/she did. So why, then, would god expect us to worship him?
HUMANS you do trust – why then not trust someone MUCH more ABLE? :DDD

Trust? First off I find it unlikely I would ever have contact with god, so whether I trust him or not seems irrelevant. What am I supposed to trust him to do? That which he has already done, by creating the universe?

 
Flag Post

@ohm
Simple question: Define “worship”.
Cause you seem to be under impression, that it means “we do something fro GOD”.
Whereas, with all my countless repetitions of examples like doctors and parents, I’m trying to explain, that GOD gives us the system that would benefit US and only US.
HE doesn’t need anything, not even “worship”.
But He did create US, and then provided with rules, fit for US, to make US better and give US better life.
But in order for US to also APPRECIATE it, He made this HARD system of “seeming evil”, with so little “seeming good”.
So, when He finally (very soon, another topic) REMOVES that stupid “evil”, we will appreciate the “good”, MUCH-MUCH-MUCH MORE.
Light is always much brighter after coming out of darkness, you know this as a fact.
Same with spiritual light, too.
If we were only given the LIGHT, we could not appreciate it to the same extent, like we will, when the DARKNESS ceases.
But of course, for you all, it’s mumbo-jumbo, exactly the normal reaction to a flash of lightning in the night. :D

 
Flag Post
Originally posted by somebody613:

@ohm
If we were only given the LIGHT, we could not appreciate it to the same extent, like we will, when the DARKNESS ceases.

This is basically a short version of the argument against The Problem Of Evil, am I right?

Now, my opinion of it is that it is an ironical argument, for this reason:

1. It is assumed by theists that God designed us.
2. You have assumed that we need every single bit of suffering to optimise happiness (or whatever it is that God strives in us).
3. Our assumed ‘need’ for suffering is thus designed, by God, in the first place.
4. This ‘necessity’ is therefore not a necessity, as it can be removed from Gods design, as God is powerful enough to do that. Basically redefining ‘human’. Furthermore, why was it ‘implemented’ in the first place?
5. Thus, The power that you claim of your God contradicts the argument that you use to justify the reality.

In short, suffering (and your argument for its necessity) can be designed out of Gods blueprints for ‘human’.

On another side note, by claiming that suffering is a “necessity”, you are contradicting the (almost) theologically fundamental concept of free-will. If we had free-will, then the lack of suffering would not matter, as our choices would be free from persuasion. (Which is the only argument more absurd than the claim for the need of suffering)!

 
Flag Post

@NW
1. +
2. ULTIMATE is the key word – we have no clue, what it TRULY means, until we will see it.
3. +
4. see 2.
5. UGH? Not even close. :D

If it could be done, without rendering the ULTIMATE goal void, it WOULD be done.
Don’t think, that you are smarter than GOD. (“Hey, GOD, look what I found out!”) :DDD
And don’t think, that He’s stupider than you, too. (“Well, duh! I put it there to begin with!”) :DDD

FREE WILL is actually BASED on “FREE” aka EQUALLY-looking “good” and “evil”.
Only an idiot would prefer poison over medicine – but when BOTH look like sweet candies… :DDD
Or, poison LOOKS like a candy, while medicine only TASTES like that, AFTER you already took it, but LOOKS like junk…
That’s our life.
As I said, we DON’T know, what’s there in store – if we knew, that would be “tasting the candy”, before choosing one.
Choose first, eat second, feel the stomachache last. :DDD

 
Flag Post

So God is not omnipotent?