Shooting death of Trayvon Martin page 4

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Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Yes, and Tayvon could have been acting in self-defense too, we’ll never know until we either get some truth serum, a video, or a clairvoyant.

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:
Originally posted by BobTheCoolGuy:
Is walking up to someone and talking to them illegal? How do you know Zimmerman wasn’t physically assaulted by Martin?

No, not at all; walking up and talking to someone (i.e. “detaining” them) isn’t illegal. The problem here is, we will never know whether Zimmerman was physically assaulted by Martin or not, because one guy is trying to save his own ass, and the other is dead. Regardless, Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested or prosecuted. This could be a great injustice to the dead person, because they can’t give their side of the story or speak for themselves. I’m sure you’ve heard that the dead boy was unarmed. The cry of “Help” that was heard on the 911 call was determined by two different voice specialists to be belonging to Trayvon.

So, this appears to be stacking up pretty badly for Mr. Zimmerman.

Originally posted by BobTheCoolGuy:
After the 911 dispatcher said ‘you don’t need to do that’ is a little bit different than a direct order by the police in an emergency. Zimmerman had every right to follow this guy if he wanted to.

Are you sure? I mean, I was a dispatcher for a law enforcement agency for a couple years, and my posts/patrols always did as I directed. When Mr. Zimmerman went against the dispatcher’s advice, he made a very bad decision in my opinion.

The voice analysis honestly didn’t seem all that conclusive to me. Also, do you really think Zimmerman would have the rationale to lie to a paramedic and tell the paramedic he had been yelling help? That being said, it certainly doesn’t help Zimmerman’s case.

Obviously in hindsight Mr Zimmerman following Martin was a very bad decision. All the dispatchers I heard on various tapes did a good job I thought.

@tenco Have they released an autopsy on Martin yet / Zimmerman’s medical record? I would think that should help shed light on who was doing the assaulting. It’s pretty clear that there was something going on before the gunshot. However, if they are both found to have experienced some kind of physical trauma, it won’t show much.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:
Originally posted by karmakoolkid:
(reverse racism)

There is no such thing as reverse racism.

Take your pick Most of them are “in the ball park”.

 
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Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Yes, and Tayvon could have been acting in self-defense too, we’ll never know until we either get some truth serum, a video, or a clairvoyant.

^ This – at least let it go to court before you automatically condemn Zimmerman.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
Originally posted by tenco1:
Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Yes, and Tayvon could have been acting in self-defense too, we’ll never know until we either get some truth serum, a video, or a clairvoyant.

^ This – at least let it go to court before you automatically condemn Zimmerman.

Or let him go free.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:
….. at least let it go to court before you automatically condemn Zimmerman.

YES,, absolutely. Of course, a sensible & reasonable person should understand that to do otherwise is little more than allowing biases floating upon very shallow information do their “thinking” for them.

There is little wrong w/ discussing POSSIBILITIES surrounding the incident. To do so is to glean one of the better parts of such behavior….the ability to be “involved” in an incident of serious nature w/out being “responsible” for it or having any other DIRECT impact from it.

This is how we “learn”…about the world, and about ourselves in this world. Chance favors the prepared mind.

 
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Originally posted by BobTheCoolGuy:

The voice analysis honestly didn’t seem all that conclusive to me. Also, do you really think Zimmerman would have the rationale to lie to a paramedic and tell the paramedic he had been yelling help? That being said, it certainly doesn’t help Zimmerman’s case.

Obviously in hindsight Mr Zimmerman following Martin was a very bad decision. All the dispatchers I heard on various tapes did a good job I thought.

Rationale, as in presence of mind? I don’t know; maybe (if he was in the wrong) it was at least a panic move to CYA, but we’ll never really know for sure. And I’m not sure how much weight in court, or in an investigation, those voice analyses really hold. The case probably deserves another look, though, by the FBI or another oversight agency.

 
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There’s a lot we don’t know and may never know about this case – especially whether Travyon assaulted Zimmerman before the shooting. There are a few things we can take from this, though.

The media coverage was insanely biased. If you didn’t look closely, you would think Travyon Martin was a little 12 year old kid, and Zimmerman was a clearly racist white. The media tried hard to give that impression, by constantly running childhood photos of Martin, and going to pains to identify the hispanic Zimmerman as “white”. Travyon was actually 6’2" and a football player (that’s about 1.88 and American football). This doesn’t mean he’s guilty, but it means it’s far more understandable for someone to feel threatened by him as opposed to the murder of a skinny young child. The media clearly learned nothing about leaping to conclusions in racially sensitive cases from the Tawana Brawley and Duke lacrosse cases. I believe racism does happen, but the media always seems to seize on highly dubious cases.

Obama’s jumping into the case should be considered inexcusable. The president taking sides in a case could be highly prejudicial to juries should this go to a trial. This also shows that he’s a “post-racial president” just about to the same degree as he’s a “post-partisan president.”

 
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Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Under this, Zimmerman would seem to be guilty, as he pursued and cornered someone, and initiated a violent exchange with, someone who was not in the process of committing or fleeing a felony.

 
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Originally posted by Redem:
Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Under this, Zimmerman would seem to be guilty, as he pursued and cornered someone, and initiated a violent exchange with, someone who was not in the process of committing or fleeing a felony.

LOL….that was what I meant when I said it’s a little hard to use that defence when the “ground” ya’re standing on is “on the move”.

Good link, Redem….but, likely bad for Virgil the vigilante.

 
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Originally posted by Redem:
Originally posted by scoopolard:
Originally posted by Cimerax:

Zimmerman murdered a kid. Simple as that. Based on his skin colour or not, it was murder, and Zimmerman should be punished accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_your_ground#Florida

Under this, Zimmerman would seem to be guilty, as he pursued and cornered someone, and initiated a violent exchange with, someone who was not in the process of committing or fleeing a felony.

No. He was following someone whom he had deemed suspicious. It was his job after all. He did not break the law there. When he felt threatened (for whatever reason…which could be a bullshit reason), he acted accordingly and stood his ground. Now, if he had chased trayvon down with a gun in hand and shot the kid, then that would be a whole other issue.

 
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If I recall right…this wasn’t a “job”…..
it was volunteer.
Ergo, Redem’s point about bringing the confrontation TO the kid still stands.

This is similar to someone being in a store and seeing an accidental puddle of water and rushing over to “slip” on it and then sue, Sue, SUE.

What part of OBSERVE (at a rational distance) & report is not understood here?

 
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It was his job after all.

No it wasn’t, vigilante isn’t a job.

When he felt threatened (for whatever reason…which could be a bullshit reason), he acted accordingly and stood his ground

The law you posted only permits this defence if the person in question is engaged in a crime and so on. You can’t start a fight with someone and then use your “feeling threatened” by them as a defence for killing them, that’s nonsensical!

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

What part of OBSERVE (at a rational distance) & report is not understood here?

The untold part about not confronting the thing you’re supposed to be just observing.

 
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Originally posted by Redem:

It was his job after all.

No it wasn’t, vigilante isn’t a job.

When he felt threatened (for whatever reason…which could be a bullshit reason), he acted accordingly and stood his ground

The law you posted only permits this defence if the person in question is engaged in a crime and so on. You can’t start a fight with someone and then use your “feeling threatened” by them as a defence for killing them, that’s nonsensical!

What it comes down to is if Zimmerman started the physical altercation or not, which is unclear at the time. If Zimmerman’s story is true – he went up to talk to he kid, and the kid responded and then physically assaulted him, Zimmerman has a defense. If Zimmerman was waving his gun at the kid or physically assaulted the kid first, then he is guilty of murder. It’s as simple as that I think (not really, but that should provide a good perspective on what happened.)

Edit: I guess Martin has already been buried – shouldn’t it be pretty clear who did the beating by now then?


Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder.

 
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Wow….second degree!!!
That’s a lot higher than I thought it would be…
and a lot harder to prove.
I expect it to be plea-bargained down to manslaughter.

Thanks for the update, Bob.

 
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Yep. Here’s the update on the case. I really only expected an investigation, but it looks like they’re moving right along with the murder charge.

Originally posted by scoopolard:

No. He was following someone whom he had deemed suspicious. It was his job after all. He did not break the law there. When he felt threatened (for whatever reason…which could be a bullshit reason), he acted accordingly and stood his ground. Now, if he had chased trayvon down with a gun in hand and shot the kid, then that would be a whole other issue.

We don’t really know what happened scoop, because we don’t have both sides of the story.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

Take your pick Most of them are “in the ball park”.

Yeah, that still doesn’t make it reverse. Reverse racism is a retarded phrase, as racism is racism regardless of whether a minority or majority is being affected by it. I’m gonna go right ahead and copy the top user entry of the link you provided.

I’m going out on a limb here people, but bear with me…
Reverse racism, in actuality, shouldn’t even be a term… It’s described as the act of racism against a majority (typically used in context of whites). But…isn’t that just plain old regular racism? Last time I checked, Caucasian WAS a race. And I’m willing to bet that any other majority suffering from “reverse racism” is a race too. So why isn’t it just racism? Why give it a fancy new term? If you wanted to take the literal definition, reverse racism would actually be the opposite: supporting a race as equal to another. Just a thought.

I’d like to see Zimmerman tried for reverse murder. Just because murder is something that minorities does to majorities, not the other way around.

 
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It’s amazing how the media can just target anybody and get them arrested/completely and totally hated without any evidence of their own (with the exception of the occasional edited recording). Simply amazing.

 
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Originally posted by NaturalReject:

I’d like to see Zimmerman tried for reverse murder.

LOL! That puts it in perspective, and got a chuckle.

Originally posted by scoopolard:

It’s amazing how the media can just target anybody and get them arrested/completely and totally hated without any evidence of their own (with the exception of the occasional edited recording). Simply amazing.

Oh, yeah, no evidence at all. Not witness statements, or expert statements, or dispatch records, or anything like that to make it look suspect. They just do this stuff for fun.

Look, I really doubt the media has the power to get someone arrested, that’s the police department and DA’s job. They explicitly stated they made the decision carefully and without media influence.

 
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Originally posted by Twilight_Ninja:

Look, I really doubt the media has the power to get someone arrested, that’s the police department and DA’s job. They explicitly stated they made the decision carefully and without media influence.

But…But, the media is the source of all evils.

 
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Honestly, I believe Zimmerman probably feels like a complete idiot for what he did.
But once you take a life, you have to pay for it for the rest of your life.
His intentions were probably to stop someone who may probably cause harm to others in his neighborhood due to the common stereotypes that surround blacks. Although, ignorance is not a justification for being oblivious to the law.
He probably isn’t a bad person, so to speak; just stupidly put himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It goes to show that sometimes using your head before you act will save you a lot of heartache, and suffering down the road.

 
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Originally posted by karmakoolkid:

Wow….second degree!!!
That’s a lot higher than I thought it would be…
and a lot harder to prove.
I expect it to be plea-bargained down to manslaughter.

Thanks for the update, Bob.

This has Casey Anthony written all over it – a defendant tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty, prosecution gets frisky with their charges, and volia – not guilty.

 
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Originally posted by issendorf:

This has Casey Anthony written all over it – a defendant tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty, prosecution gets frisky with their charges, and volia – not guilty.

…Okay, on thing I would like to say; don’t count your chickens before they hatch.